Compost is NOT SOIL, soil is Sand, Silt, and Clay. Exposing the compost scam with Gary's Best.

[Perry Staltic]

Any not fully decomposed organic matter doesn't really concern me because I fertilize with urine and chicken poop. Plenty of nitrogen to feed the plants and break that stuff down

 

[Giraffe]

@philalethes

My view of soil is very much influenced by no-till farmers like Gabe Brown as well as the bio-dynamic people (this is the Rudolf Steiner school of farming). Both disturb the soil as little as possible. However, my practical experience is a little different.

I grow peppers, tomatoes and other stuff in containers. The containers are filled with garden soil and there are composting worms in the containers. I bury chopped kitchen scraps there. Now and then I add a little rock dust or powdered eggshell. Sometimes there are so many worms that I wonder where my soil is gone to. (You dig a little and you think you have a huge meatball in your hand. ) The plants thrive. I have had times where the leaves of the tomato plants had rolled edges (a sign of overfertiliization), but they grew out of it. Sometimes when I add new scraps at a place where I had put something a few days before and try to mix it under a bit (in order to inoculate it) I find that the roots of the tomato or cucumber have occupied the place already. Ask anyone who has grown squash on a compost pile. The plants love it! I have planted in semi-finished vermi-compost and it works, too.

I have also grown veggies on a tiny plot of land that has heavy clay soil. Clay is rock-hard when it's dry. And it's hydrophobic. You water it, but the water does not penetrate the soil. When I first planted transplants I made a hole - I wished I had a pickaxe! - put in the plant somehow, and then I filled the hole with large clumps of clay. (I guess it's easier to plant something in pebbles.) I transplanted a couple of seedlings this way, but then I got a large bag of compost and filled the holes with a mixture half compost and half soil. It worked so much better. I have noticed that on spaces where compost was added to the top layer before planting, that the plants were shallow-rooted. I have seen quite a few videos on youtube where gardeners with clay soil dug deep holes and filled them with compost before planting. I think I will try this the next time. Another problem I have run into with my don't disturb the soil approach was that I couldn't get on top of plants like corn thistle and such until I really disturbed the soil and removed most of their roots.

I still think that the no-till thingy is fascinating, but it's not the (best) solution for every situation. That the roots of plants avoid compost is not my observation.

Maybe some food for thought:

Clay soil in the desert
Does No-Till Gardening Work on Hard Ground? One Gardener Shares Her Failures and Successes

 

[philalethes]

Ask anyone who has grown squash on a compost pile. The plants love it! I have planted in semi-finished vermi-compost and it works, too.

There are certainly a few plant species that do relatively better in compost than others, and squashes are among them (as are peppers and tomatoes), but I believe this is primarily because they tend to utilize the liberated nutrients quickly; also, it's not that the roots would tend to avoid compost in those cases, because the reason they do relatively well in compost in the first place is because they go after the nutrients, but that doesn't mean that it's necessarily beneficial for the roots to be growing in the middle of actively decomposing compost. I contend that you'd see just as good results by simply using fertilizer in those cases, and likely even better due to the absence of the excessive amount of microbial life that compost brings with it. That's been my experience too. And beyond that I contend that you'd see even better results in properly healthy soil; in warmer climates or using artificial lighting and heating, plants like tomatoes can be grown like the perennials they really are, as is the case with many squashes and cucurbits in general, and having permanently healthy soil in those cases becomes even more important.

I have noticed that on spaces where compost was added to the top layer before planting, that the plants were shallow-rooted. I have seen quite a few videos on youtube where gardeners with clay soil dug deep holes and filled them with compost before planting. I think I will try this the next time. Another problem I have run into with my don't disturb the soil approach was that I couldn't get on top of plants like corn thistle and such until I really disturbed the soil and removed most of their roots.

Well, that is naturally to be expected, just applying some compost on top of dead and compacted clay is obviously not going to magically restore that clay to life overnight. However, those cases are clearly also the cases where disturbing the soil will be the least harmful, since there's not much life there to impact anyway. Doing that is fine if you're willing to expend the initial time and resources on it, but it's not a good long-term solution to restore life to larger areas of soil permanently, especially considering that most of it will tend to compact again faster. If you're just looking to set up a few patches to grow some food and/or other plants it's not a bad idea in that case, although I'd definitely recommend you still compost and mulch on top, and that you don't disturb the soil further after that initial dig.

However, if you want to restore life to larger areas of soil long-term and be able to achieve more with less work overall, there's not really any way around the process of laying down a cover on top of it full of compost and mulch in order to better retain water and to allow those first cover plants to come in and start making improvements; plants like these, that will tend to produce deeper roots even in compacted soils, as well as more familiar examples most of us see in compacted soils all the time, like clovers and dandelions and burdocks, do a lot of work in that regard. Then as life starts coming back to the soil we can luckily leapfrog the process that would take nature longer by itself by introducing more microbial life and providing a steady supply of mulch, and get the soil quality and microbiome back to where we want it to be.

It should of course be noted that this is a process that can take decades before coming to full fruition (after all, forests can take centuries, even as much as a millennium, to climax), but due to how the soil quality will constantly be improving during that time and how it's easier to restore larger areas that way, you will definitely start to see the effect of ecological compound interest as the years go by; even more so in colder climates where healthy soil with compost and mulch on top can do wonders to preserve the soil over the winters.

 

[Perry Staltic]

the reason they do relatively well in compost in the first place is because they go after the nutrients

Roots seek water, not nutrients, and they grow where they can best, which is loose media. Things a compost pile provides

 

[:M :B.]

Gary's gotta be right cause I see his ideas in nature everyday. Some plants grow fine in compost especially for a year or two or three or longer. I've seen compost destroy or stunt certain plants.

Years ago I got a backhoe and removed my lawn and landscaped most of the yard. Thinking I was awesome I deeply amended the soil with lots of compost and installed sod. It seemed to work awesome for 2 years and then my lawn went to hell, especially in the shade where the water stayed the longest not draining and not getting oxygen to the roots. The grass thinned out and I got invaded by weeds that can handle that environment. As Gary has said, having a sand silt clay soil you don't have to worry about overwatering, only underwatering. Having compost soil you have to worry about both. In the most shady area of this yard I thought I would make my life easy by falling for the weed barrier fabric scam. Laying that down and covering it with and 1-1/2" thick of 1inch clean gravel (because it was free) and turns out weeds loved growing in it because of the oxygen and moisture in the shade damn it.

Some of the plants I installed were grown in compost/woodchips, they did good for a year and then some of the tall ones fell over and I noticed their roots did not do much. I also mixed in compost into the holes where I planted them. I wish I had just mixed different sands into the area. Some of the shrub trees were grown in regular dirt wrapped in burlap and those grew just fine.
I yanked a coupe house plants out of their pots cause they looked like crap and as I removed the rotting organic matter from them they perked up in front of my eyes just as Gary has witnessed. Planted in them in a homemade Gary style mix and they completely sprung back to life in a few days. They still look good today.

Eastern Washington my dad had a cabin with a perfect yard. He probably overwatered everyday with the sprinkler system he had, but the sandy loam soil was perfect and it all seemed effortless. This perfect soil was covered with ground cover plants growing around the trees and in some areas volcanic rock, grass, shrubs.

Now I have escaped the westside muzzle wearing idiots and temporarily live on a ranch in Eastern Washington where the ranch owners have no clue what they are doing with their garden. Raised garden beds with some type of horrible store bought mulch/kind of compost. not sure what it is but their garden sucked last year. They fill up these big translucent tanks with fresh well water and let it drip for the week because they aren't around much as the ranch is their second home. The tanks warm up, the water is pretty void of oxygen, the soil sucks and their plants all sucked except for squash which grew like crazy. Their tomatoes are planted in the same spot every year which is a no no and they maybe got like 3 barely ripe tomatoes. the carrots grew like 3 inches long. The fruit trees here don't function, they need consistent oxygen rich sprinkler watering and they would like a foot of woodchips, but they just get a few drips of water. The people who own this place already know everything there is to know in the world and could care less about listening to any ideas from another person! They complain about not getting any tomatoes and I tell them I'm learning lots from this nursery owner and list out potential problems and solutions...their eyes glaze over. The guy is on one full pill of T4 first thing in the morning and tested negative for wuhan wiggle last week...twice. I gotta get outta here and get some land this spring hopefully.

Back to Western Washington I built a house in a forest near the city where this area happened to be mostly large/medium grain sand with some river rock and some fines. It was pretty compacted once you got down a ways but it's still sand and still had air. It had a forest duff layer with plenty of fungus trading the plant roots nutrients and water for sugar. Massive happy trees and lots of native organ grape/holly looking things everywhere. We drilled a 10ft deep hole for a power line utility pole and I was shocked to see roots down 10ft deep. This was right when I learned of Gary's knowledge and everything in nature started to make sense.

I think it would be pretty satisfying to have a garden with sandy loam soil and layers of duff on top that you move aside and insert the plants and as they grow you move it back. Water once in the morning perhaps. and fruit trees with a foot of chips over the soil.

 

[EvanHinkle]

Gary's gotta be right cause I see his ideas in nature everyday. Some plants grow fine in compost especially for a year or two or three or longer. I've seen compost destroy or stunt certain plants.

Years ago I got a backhoe and removed my lawn and landscaped most of the yard. Thinking I was awesome I deeply amended the soil with lots of compost and installed sod. It seemed to work awesome for 2 years and then my lawn went to hell, especially in the shade where the water stayed the longest not draining and not getting oxygen to the roots. The grass thinned out and I got invaded by weeds that can handle that environment. As Gary has said, having a sand silt clay soil you don't have to worry about overwatering, only underwatering. Having compost soil you have to worry about both. In the most shady area of this yard I thought I would make my life easy by falling for the weed barrier fabric scam. Laying that down and covering it with and 1-1/2" thick of 1inch clean gravel (because it was free) and turns out weeds loved growing in it because of the oxygen and moisture in the shade damn it.

Some of the plants I installed were grown in compost/woodchips, they did good for a year and then some of the tall ones fell over and I noticed their roots did not do much. I also mixed in compost into the holes where I planted them. I wish I had just mixed different sands into the area. Some of the shrub trees were grown in regular dirt wrapped in burlap and those grew just fine.
I yanked a coupe house plants out of their pots cause they looked like crap and as I removed the rotting organic matter from them they perked up in front of my eyes just as Gary has witnessed. Planted in them in a homemade Gary style mix and they completely sprung back to life in a few days. They still look good today.

Eastern Washington my dad had a cabin with a perfect yard. He probably overwatered everyday with the sprinkler system he had, but the sandy loam soil was perfect and it all seemed effortless. This perfect soil was covered with ground cover plants growing around the trees and in some areas volcanic rock, grass, shrubs.

Now I have escaped the westside muzzle wearing idiots and temporarily live on a ranch in Eastern Washington where the ranch owners have no clue what they are doing with their garden. Raised garden beds with some type of horrible store bought mulch/kind of compost. not sure what it is but their garden sucked last year. They fill up these big translucent tanks with fresh well water and let it drip for the week because they aren't around much as the ranch is their second home. The tanks warm up, the water is pretty void of oxygen, the soil sucks and their plants all sucked except for squash which grew like crazy. Their tomatoes are planted in the same spot every year which is a no no and they maybe got like 3 barely ripe tomatoes. the carrots grew like 3 inches long. The fruit trees here don't function, they need consistent oxygen rich sprinkler watering and they would like a foot of woodchips, but they just get a few drips of water. The people who own this place already know everything there is to know in the world and could care less about listening to any ideas from another person! They complain about not getting any tomatoes and I tell them I'm learning lots from this nursery owner and list out potential problems and solutions...their eyes glaze over. The guy is on one full pill of T4 first thing in the morning and tested negative for wuhan wiggle last week...twice. I gotta get outta here and get some land this spring hopefully.

Back to Western Washington I built a house in a forest near the city where this area happened to be mostly large/medium grain sand with some river rock and some fines. It was pretty compacted once you got down a ways but it's still sand and still had air. It had a forest duff layer with plenty of fungus trading the plant roots nutrients and water for sugar. Massive happy trees and lots of native organ grape/holly looking things everywhere. We drilled a 10ft deep hole for a power line utility pole and I was shocked to see roots down 10ft deep. This was right when I learned of Gary's knowledge and everything in nature started to make sense.

I think it would be pretty satisfying to have a garden with sandy loam soil and layers of duff on top that you move aside and insert the plants and as they grow you move it back. Water once in the morning perhaps. and fruit trees with a foot of chips over the soil.

Yeah, it’s an interesting thing about people who have trouble growing stuff. They’re willing to try anything, (except any of the conservative, simple suggestions you make)… lol

 

[EvanHinkle]

Fuji is ready for prime time!

 

[EvanHinkle]

Not so much on the Pink Lady, (hasn’t woken up yet?).

Potatoes looking good!

Plan is to continue to stagger the potatoes so that I’m harvesting almost monthly. We’ll see though with the ice age we seem to be heading into? (Kidding…kinda…)

 

[:M :B.]

Looks awesome! Going to have some good pictures on here this summer. The weather control will make things interesting. What a relief winter is over, now we get to be on fire soon. I'm going to have to get some potatoes in pots or bags going soon. Thanks for sharing

 

[Perry Staltic]

Not so much on the Pink Lady, (hasn’t woken up yet?).

Potatoes looking good!
View attachment 49163
Plan is to continue to stagger the potatoes so that I’m harvesting almost monthly. We’ll see though with the ice age we seem to be heading into? (Kidding…kinda…)

How high can you make a potato container like that? I cut a plastic 55-gallon barrel into 3 parts and plan on planting potatoes in the bottom section and adding sections as the plants grow taller. Just an experiment; I don't know if it will work.

 

[:M :B.]

How high can you make a potato container like that? I cut a plastic 55-gallon barrel into 3 parts and plan on planting potatoes in the bottom section and adding sections as the plants grow taller. Just an experiment; I don't know if it will work.

I watched some video where a guy said the potato sends out new spuds pretty much on the level that it is planted. So he planted at multiple levels. I'm not sure if how true that is or how high the potato can punch through the soil, but maybe it can do it even if it's deep. He was planting in big black trash bags.
I think he said as he was going to harvest the layers by rolling the trash bag down to get at them.
I've never grown potatoes but will be doing it soon.

He didn't fill the garbage up all the way like a 55gallon barrel. Probably was 2-3ft tall and maybe 3 different layers of potatoes

 

[philalethes]

Roots seek water, not nutrients, and they grow where they can best, which is loose media.

Also a technically true statement, but where microbes liberate nutrients in compost is where there will tend to be more water. Also, the latter part about loose media is true to varying degrees for different types of plants, but in general it is true that roots grow better in looser soil, naturally (albeit not too loose either, obviously); that being said, such looser soil can be achieved in many other ways than to put compost (actively decomposing, not the humus you were referring to previously, even though that is technically natural compost at its final stage of decomposition after many years) directly into the soil, which will tend to be detrimental to plant roots ceteris paribus.

Years ago I got a backhoe and removed my lawn and landscaped most of the yard. Thinking I was awesome I deeply amended the soil with lots of compost and installed sod. It seemed to work awesome for 2 years and then my lawn went to hell, especially in the shade where the water stayed the longest not draining and not getting oxygen to the roots. The grass thinned out and I got invaded by weeds that can handle that environment. As Gary has said, having a sand silt clay soil you don't have to worry about overwatering, only underwatering. Having compost soil you have to worry about both.

Brilliant example of precisely what Gary is talking about and what I've been talking about too. That type of "quick fix" will, as I noted earlier, tend to collapse and become compacted again, because the microbial life necessary to make such soils "spongy" simply isn't present. You'd have to at least make sure to add in enough silt and sand (and other things such as those Gary mentions, like peat moss and pumice), but it quickly becomes impractical to do this to a reasonable depth for a large enough area, and you can't keep digging up the soil either after you've managed to restore some life to it, or you'll go back to scratch again.

Thus, as written above, you either have to keep putting in the time and resources to maintain e.g. raised beds, constantly doing the work that nature itself would do in a healthy soil, or take the measures necessary to restore life to the soil over a process of years; it's a slow process, but even after a couple of years you'll start seeing beautiful topsoil even on hard clay soils, and the returns are exponential as the years go by relative to the "quick fix" approach.

 

[philalethes]

[ merged with the above post, apparently it's not possible to delete posts here ]

 

[EvanHinkle]

How high can you make a potato container like that? I cut a plastic 55-gallon barrel into 3 parts and plan on planting potatoes in the bottom section and adding sections as the plants grow taller. Just an experiment; I don't know if it will work.

Couldn’t say for sure. Potatoes are interesting in that I’ve had luck with them when I had no idea what I’m doing, and challenges when I attempted stuff. All in all, they seem to grow relatively easily. I wouldn’t be surprised if you have luck with that idea. Im sure you’ve seen the essentially neglectful ways these things are fine with being grown in.

 

[:M :B.]

yo @dannyroddy Gary gets into some insect killing things here:
View: https://www.youtube.com/live/FfbNQbErlqE?feature=share&t=2988
Should start where he starts talking about it.