Coming Off T3 Only Cycle

[youngsinatra]

I‘d get some more labs to further investigate.
Low thyroid markers show you that there is a problem, but does not give you clues about what to do about it.

I believe that hypothyroidism can be improved and even fixed without pharmacological support in many, but obviously not all cases.

I‘d personally test..

• Red Blood Cell (RBC) Magnesium
• Hemoglobin
• Serum Iron
• Total Iron Saturation Index (%)
• Serum Transferrin
• Serum Ferritin
• Serum Copper
• Serum Ceruloplasmin
• Plasma Zinc

In many cases, this can reveal the root causes of issues in energy metabolism.

 

[T-3]

I appreciate hearing Randle Cyclist's and others' experiences on this topic of higher-than-Peat-recommended dosing of T3 over an extended time period.

Since 2017, I've been on approximately 125mcg per day (sometimes up to 200mcg) for long durations (3 up to 24 months). I've cycled intuitively based on pleasantness of symptoms (unlike Randle Cyclist's unpleasant symptoms) but also because of concerns he raised that motivated him to want to stop supplementation. I have had many of the same concerns that Randle Cyclist stated, not wanting to be dependent on thyroid meds the rest of my life, worried about availability/quality and wondering, in particular, if I could ever re-start my endogenous thyroid production in case I wanted to go supplement-free.


Like Randle Cyclist and @ecstatichamster I came high dosing from reading Wilson's T3-only protocol. I was also reading the wisely (I think) cautionary messages on RPF, namely Ray's concerns about super-physiologic dosing, binders/toxins in the supplements, and quality of the T3 and NDT available on the market.

For me, high-dose thyroid supplementation is too beneficial to consider stopping, but I understand wanting to be able to quit in case I had to or wanted to. I'm less fearful about quitting cold-turkey than I was, after having done it a few times (one week off) and reading accounts on RPF demonstrating the body's powers of adaptation in general and some forum members who've gone from suppressed thyroid to fully-functioning endogenous thyroid production again, which is what I think many of us would like to see as fully-documented by as many members as possible who have achieved this and are willing to share.
I have moderated my T3 dosing a bit in the last few months and cycled for several months going off T3-only and onto 2 to 3 grains of NDT per day -- just to see if my body "wanted" T4 (or T2 or calcitonin).
I have also tried cold-turkey washout periods for a week or so (usually to raise my TSH up from suppressed) so that docs wouldn't reduce the T3 Rx. It felt bad to stop supplementing any thyroid. I think I benefit from being on one or the other and will likely continue using both T3 and NDT. The T3-only dosing for several months has a slightly distinct psychological and metabolic feel, I believe. Both are good, and I think that multi-month cycling from all-T3 back to all-NDT and sometimes a mix has been useful for me.


I want to note several differences from Randle Cyclist's experience:

-T3 (liothyronine) has mild but noticeable (and very beneficial, I think) antidepressant effects for me. The psychological effect of T3 feels nothing like the "distorted" or "unstable" feeling of high-dose dopamine agonists. Instead, T3 feels grounding and coherence-enhancing, just as Ray suggested (if I'm not putting words in his mouth). I have the intuition (but not hard evidence to back my claim) that T3 improves cell respiration in the brain. My head feels clear, de-fogged and brightly toned (all else equal) after taking large dose T3. I attribute some of this to "clearing Reverse T3" as Dr Wilson claims. Every time I start high-dose T3 after an NDT or one-week wash-out cycle, I believe the "clearing of Reverse T3" has a distinct and euphoric feeling, as if blockage to "happy cellular respiration" is being cleared from every cell in my body. The subtly euphoric clearing RT3 is an acute effect. The long-term psychological "brightening" and "warming" from high-dose T3 or NDT -- even without break for 18 or 24 months (my longest cycles without a break) -- provides consistent antidepressant benefit. It feels like the brain tissue is oxidizing glucose and guiding O2, CO2 and neurotransmitters to their correct location and function. I was surprised that Randle Cyclist experienced brainfog from T3. Perhaps I've occasionally felt hyperthyroid and counterintuitive hypothyroid symptoms on occasion like fatigue or malaise hours after dosing (as if there's a relative hypothyroid "dip" after taking super-physiologic thyroid doses). But taking T3 intermittently throughout the day (4x-8x per day) or all at once as per Dr Wilson's protocol (200mcg in one go at 4am in Randle Cyclist's case) always feels de-fogging to me. Never fog-promoting.


-T3 makes me feel androgenic and anabolic. I was surprised that Randle Cyclist felt the opposite, but of course we're all different. I've always had a strong sex drive, which I think has greatly improved in quality, thanks to RPF, shifting from estrogenic (junkie-like sex drive) to the androgens Peat writes positively about. If anything, T3 accentuates libido by improving (perhaps my subjective impression of my) metabolic function and cell respiration from oxidation of glucose. Clinicians who prescribe T3 and know a bit about hormones have mentioned to me that hyperthyroid patients are known to have high libido. Not sure if there's a literature on this or whether that clinician's observation is valid in general, but it matches my experience.

-Whereas Randle Cyclist felt that T3 was preventing muscle gain (recall, too, there's an anecdote that surfaces occasionally on RPF about Muhamad Ali "losing strength" from thyroid supplementation--I think from NDT, not T3)…my experience is the opposite. I'm in the gym most days and nearly always have been. Not heavy lifting but more like body-weight arm-balances in yoga, high reps with light weights, Iyengar yoga, etc. I had good muscle mass before starting T3. I'm training to maintain strength and increase flexibility. Another major goal in my training: to increase a confident sense of joy (DHT-feeling) or psychological "flow" while exercising rather than drill-sergeant-style negative self-talk. I'd say the quality of my exercise has improved markedly while supplementing with high-dose thyroid (same goes for all-T3 or all-NDT or a mix of the two). I can imagine that competitive athletes and younger gym rats aiming for gains -- hopefully with some reflection about the multiple dimensions on which they might want to objectively measure their gains -- may feel differently than I do about T3. I'd expect more of them to have experiences similar to mine. I think there is more stigma and myth about high-dose T3 blocking anabolic gains than evidence. If anyone has studies to point to in this regard, I'd be grateful to see them. Based on my experience, I don't worry at all that T3 risks blocking anabolic gains. I think the opposite is more likely the case.

-Racing heartbeat? My docs are always horrified by my high T3 dosing and suppressed TSH and out-of-bound free/total T3 (too high) and T4 (too low when I'm on T3-only and too high if on 4+ grams NDT per day). Docs strenuously urge caution, citing arrhythmia and osteoporosis. The studies these alleged risks come from are poor-quality. But they have influenced what's taught by allegedly smart endocrinologists (especially in the UK and Commonwealth countries). These alleged risks are scare tactics in my view. Endos are trained to warn us patients away from fully enjoying good metabolic health and the warm, efficient cellular respiration that supports it. I realise that some here (on RPF) have taken T3 and experienced uncomfortable racing heartbeat as an unwanted symptom/side-effect. I was very very cautious and scared about this in the beginning, but no more. I began with 1/16th grain NDT. (I had it compounded at a pharmacy, and they just "cut" the concentrated NDT powder with filler, so I would recommend the highest NDT concentration inside the capsule to minimize filler). I was terrified I'd have a runaway heartbeat from unnaturally supplementing with thyroid when my blood tests didn't say conclusively that I needed it (TSH just over 4 when I got my first Rxs in 2015). By 2017, I was on 200 mcg T3 daily. Rapid resting heart beat is noticeable for me on high doses of T3 (120 to 200 mcg) or NDT (3 or 4 grams). I notice how fast my heartbeat is as I'm falling asleep. My heartbeat is oftentimes slightly or moderately racing but never to an alarming extent after I learned to stop worrying about it and cautiously adjust dose downward so that, in a horizontal resting position: I am ok with an "allegro" or "allegretto" heartbeat (which connotes joy and speed), although I probably prefer "andante" (at a walking pace, moderately slow, 56–108 beats per minute). Both of these are better than cold and slow low-pulse heartbeats from my long-ago past before Peat on keto diets while running on sympathetic-axis hormones. In my early years of high-dose T3, I was still getting used to it and worried about over-exertion of the heart. I knew I could eat raw cauliflower or take anti-thyroid supps to calm the heartbeat if it got uncomfortable. It never really did. The only hyperthyroid discomfort for me is a slight twitchiness. I can feel a very quick Achilles Tendon Reflex lying in bed and some other fast-contraction twitching -- all very occasional and very mild. I like to feel these slight hyperthyroid symptoms as a subtle trace I can only faintly notice. If they become stronger than that, I back off the dosing so that these symptoms are not overly expressed.

-Like Randle Cyclist, I have noticed that my SHBG was far above range one time (4 or 5 years ago). I haven't tested since. I can understand the theoretical problems this may cause but haven't experienced low-free-T symptoms.


Does anyone have bloodwork showing their thyroid bloodwork back in the normal ranges after several months of zero thyroid supplementation following high-dose thyroid supplementation at super-physiologic doses substantially higher than what Peat recommended?

 

[T-3]

Youngsinatra, that's a good list of blood tests. I wonder if you might share an example or two about how to interpret or use them in the context of this thread. Any additional comments on your blood test list would be appreciated.

I'm curious what you think about an out-of-range SHBG value that's too high.

Do we know how much within-person variation there is SHBG? I tend to think one can be out of range and not necessarily have problems. I'm conflicted: I want all of this information and I want to know how to interpret them although they are not all available where I live. At the same time, I think there are too many bell-curve (Gaussian distribution) assumptions and a surprising degree of statistical naiveté even among the allegedly sophisticated experts asked to sit on boards that make recommendations regarding what constitutes 'normal'.

In particular, if my SHBG is sky high, do you think that necessarily will lead to problems of insufficient free T in the serum?

 

[Mauritio]

I appreciate hearing Randle Cyclist's and others' experiences on this topic of higher-than-Peat-recommended dosing of T3 over an extended time period.

Since 2017, I've been on approximately 125mcg per day (sometimes up to 200mcg) for long durations (3 up to 24 months). I've cycled intuitively based on pleasantness of symptoms (unlike Randle Cyclist's unpleasant symptoms) but also because of concerns he raised that motivated him to want to stop supplementation. I have had many of the same concerns that Randle Cyclist stated, not wanting to be dependent on thyroid meds the rest of my life, worried about availability/quality and wondering, in particular, if I could ever re-start my endogenous thyroid production in case I wanted to go supplement-free.


Like Randle Cyclist and @ecstatichamster I came high dosing from reading Wilson's T3-only protocol. I was also reading the wisely (I think) cautionary messages on RPF, namely Ray's concerns about super-physiologic dosing, binders/toxins in the supplements, and quality of the T3 and NDT available on the market.

For me, high-dose thyroid supplementation is too beneficial to consider stopping, but I understand wanting to be able to quit in case I had to or wanted to. I'm less fearful about quitting cold-turkey than I was, after having done it a few times (one week off) and reading accounts on RPF demonstrating the body's powers of adaptation in general and some forum members who've gone from suppressed thyroid to fully-functioning endogenous thyroid production again, which is what I think many of us would like to see as fully-documented by as many members as possible who have achieved this and are willing to share.
I have moderated my T3 dosing a bit in the last few months and cycled for several months going off T3-only and onto 2 to 3 grains of NDT per day -- just to see if my body "wanted" T4 (or T2 or calcitonin).
I have also tried cold-turkey washout periods for a week or so (usually to raise my TSH up from suppressed) so that docs wouldn't reduce the T3 Rx. It felt bad to stop supplementing any thyroid. I think I benefit from being on one or the other and will likely continue using both T3 and NDT. The T3-only dosing for several months has a slightly distinct psychological and metabolic feel, I believe. Both are good, and I think that multi-month cycling from all-T3 back to all-NDT and sometimes a mix has been useful for me.


I want to note several differences from Randle Cyclist's experience:

-T3 (liothyronine) has mild but noticeable (and very beneficial, I think) antidepressant effects for me. The psychological effect of T3 feels nothing like the "distorted" or "unstable" feeling of high-dose dopamine agonists. Instead, T3 feels grounding and coherence-enhancing, just as Ray suggested (if I'm not putting words in his mouth). I have the intuition (but not hard evidence to back my claim) that T3 improves cell respiration in the brain. My head feels clear, de-fogged and brightly toned (all else equal) after taking large dose T3. I attribute some of this to "clearing Reverse T3" as Dr Wilson claims. Every time I start high-dose T3 after an NDT or one-week wash-out cycle, I believe the "clearing of Reverse T3" has a distinct and euphoric feeling, as if blockage to "happy cellular respiration" is being cleared from every cell in my body. The subtly euphoric clearing RT3 is an acute effect. The long-term psychological "brightening" and "warming" from high-dose T3 or NDT -- even without break for 18 or 24 months (my longest cycles without a break) -- provides consistent antidepressant benefit. It feels like the brain tissue is oxidizing glucose and guiding O2, CO2 and neurotransmitters to their correct location and function. I was surprised that Randle Cyclist experienced brainfog from T3. Perhaps I've occasionally felt hyperthyroid and counterintuitive hypothyroid symptoms on occasion like fatigue or malaise hours after dosing (as if there's a relative hypothyroid "dip" after taking super-physiologic thyroid doses). But taking T3 intermittently throughout the day (4x-8x per day) or all at once as per Dr Wilson's protocol (200mcg in one go at 4am in Randle Cyclist's case) always feels de-fogging to me. Never fog-promoting.


-T3 makes me feel androgenic and anabolic. I was surprised that Randle Cyclist felt the opposite, but of course we're all different. I've always had a strong sex drive, which I think has greatly improved in quality, thanks to RPF, shifting from estrogenic (junkie-like sex drive) to the androgens Peat writes positively about. If anything, T3 accentuates libido by improving (perhaps my subjective impression of my) metabolic function and cell respiration from oxidation of glucose. Clinicians who prescribe T3 and know a bit about hormones have mentioned to me that hyperthyroid patients are known to have high libido. Not sure if there's a literature on this or whether that clinician's observation is valid in general, but it matches my experience.

-Whereas Randle Cyclist felt that T3 was preventing muscle gain (recall, too, there's an anecdote that surfaces occasionally on RPF about Muhamad Ali "losing strength" from thyroid supplementation--I think from NDT, not T3)…my experience is the opposite. I'm in the gym most days and nearly always have been. Not heavy lifting but more like body-weight arm-balances in yoga, high reps with light weights, Iyengar yoga, etc. I had good muscle mass before starting T3. I'm training to maintain strength and increase flexibility. Another major goal in my training: to increase a confident sense of joy (DHT-feeling) or psychological "flow" while exercising rather than drill-sergeant-style negative self-talk. I'd say the quality of my exercise has improved markedly while supplementing with high-dose thyroid (same goes for all-T3 or all-NDT or a mix of the two). I can imagine that competitive athletes and younger gym rats aiming for gains -- hopefully with some reflection about the multiple dimensions on which they might want to objectively measure their gains -- may feel differently than I do about T3. I'd expect more of them to have experiences similar to mine. I think there is more stigma and myth about high-dose T3 blocking anabolic gains than evidence. If anyone has studies to point to in this regard, I'd be grateful to see them. Based on my experience, I don't worry at all that T3 risks blocking anabolic gains. I think the opposite is more likely the case.

-Racing heartbeat? My docs are always horrified by my high T3 dosing and suppressed TSH and out-of-bound free/total T3 (too high) and T4 (too low when I'm on T3-only and too high if on 4+ grams NDT per day). Docs strenuously urge caution, citing arrhythmia and osteoporosis. The studies these alleged risks come from are poor-quality. But they have influenced what's taught by allegedly smart endocrinologists (especially in the UK and Commonwealth countries). These alleged risks are scare tactics in my view. Endos are trained to warn us patients away from fully enjoying good metabolic health and the warm, efficient cellular respiration that supports it. I realise that some here (on RPF) have taken T3 and experienced uncomfortable racing heartbeat as an unwanted symptom/side-effect. I was very very cautious and scared about this in the beginning, but no more. I began with 1/16th grain NDT. (I had it compounded at a pharmacy, and they just "cut" the concentrated NDT powder with filler, so I would recommend the highest NDT concentration inside the capsule to minimize filler). I was terrified I'd have a runaway heartbeat from unnaturally supplementing with thyroid when my blood tests didn't say conclusively that I needed it (TSH just over 4 when I got my first Rxs in 2015). By 2017, I was on 200 mcg T3 daily. Rapid resting heart beat is noticeable for me on high doses of T3 (120 to 200 mcg) or NDT (3 or 4 grams). I notice how fast my heartbeat is as I'm falling asleep. My heartbeat is oftentimes slightly or moderately racing but never to an alarming extent after I learned to stop worrying about it and cautiously adjust dose downward so that, in a horizontal resting position: I am ok with an "allegro" or "allegretto" heartbeat (which connotes joy and speed), although I probably prefer "andante" (at a walking pace, moderately slow, 56–108 beats per minute). Both of these are better than cold and slow low-pulse heartbeats from my long-ago past before Peat on keto diets while running on sympathetic-axis hormones. In my early years of high-dose T3, I was still getting used to it and worried about over-exertion of the heart. I knew I could eat raw cauliflower or take anti-thyroid supps to calm the heartbeat if it got uncomfortable. It never really did. The only hyperthyroid discomfort for me is a slight twitchiness. I can feel a very quick Achilles Tendon Reflex lying in bed and some other fast-contraction twitching -- all very occasional and very mild. I like to feel these slight hyperthyroid symptoms as a subtle trace I can only faintly notice. If they become stronger than that, I back off the dosing so that these symptoms are not overly expressed.

-Like Randle Cyclist, I have noticed that my SHBG was far above range one time (4 or 5 years ago). I haven't tested since. I can understand the theoretical problems this may cause but haven't experienced low-free-T symptoms.


Does anyone have bloodwork showing their thyroid bloodwork back in the normal ranges after several months of zero thyroid supplementation following high-dose thyroid supplementation at super-physiologic doses substantially higher than what Peat recommended?

Thanks for your report. I really enjoyed reading it.

I experience a strong increase in metabolic rate from low dose T3 to the point where I add butter and coconut oil to every meal, just to get in more calories. And every time I up my dose slightly, I notice a further increase (might be partly adrenergic stimulation). Did you ever experience that? In total I eat about 30-40% more calories than 6 months ago. I'm already at 10% body fat, so I dont want to go lower.

Ironically before T3 I had the opposite siutation ,where I would gain weight from every little thing because my metabolic rate was so low. Obviosuly I prefer my current siutation, because I can eat a lot of desert, but also because libido, energy and sleep have improved a lot.

 

[T-3]

Thanks for your report. I really enjoyed reading it.

I experience a strong increase in metabolic rate from low dose T3 to the point where I add butter and coconut oil to every meal, just to get in more calories. And every time I up my dose slightly, I notice a further increase (might be partly adrenergic stimulation). Did you ever experience that? In total I eat about 30-40% more calories than 6 months ago. I'm already at 10% body fat, so I dont want to go lower.

Ironically before T3 I had the opposite siutation ,where I would gain weight from every little thing because my metabolic rate was so low. Obviosuly I prefer my current siutation, because I can eat a lot of desert, but also because libido, energy and sleep have improved a lot.

Hi Mauritio, Thanks for your prolific posts. I'm one of many forum members carefully reading your posts and learning lots!

The interaction between dietary fat consumption and T3 dosing is something I've thought a lot about but haven't come to any firm conclusions on. I'll be curious to see what you post about it in future posts.

I was a fat kid. Went gaunt in my teens under high-stress and sleep deprivation leading up to a type-1 diabetes diagnosis. Similar to many forum members, I have been trying to fix myself with diet and supps and intense exercise my entire life. With a few exceptions (e.g. when I went from 95 up to 110kg while blocked out the gym for several months in late 2021/early-2022 during the idiotic Covid-response policies, stress of threatened job loss, etc), I've maintained acceptable leanness (85-100kg at 5'11'') with more muscle tone than I really wanted (possibly as a result of being on insulin).

My case: ectomorph body type and slow basal metabolic rate until coming here in 2013/2014 with pro-metabolic shifts in diet and new supps like T3/NDT. Acknowledging that vanity and body issues (not feeling comfortable in my own body, wanting to look leaner) was a large motivational driver to find any hack I could get my hands on to keep body-fat percentage close to 10-12% range (when I felt I looked best), the biggest breakthrough for me "Peating" has been to completely change my psychological relationship with food. Since approximately 5 years ago, thanks largely to this forum, my relationship with food has improved. It's been a sea change--unlike my entire previous dietary life, which was focused on stern willpower, mental toughness to push myself through deprivation, too much measurement & analysis relative to enjoyment of food.

I'd say for the last 5 years, I've wasted almost no energy on willpower with respect to food restriction. I've been able to design my food environment so that there are no wrong choices to make. I will go on multi-week high-sat-fat intake (lots of butter). I will go relatively low-fat with a macro percentage as low as 10 or 15%, but probably mostly in the 30-40% range. I'm not measuring macros or calories as closely as I once did. Easily, I'm consuming 4000+ (sometimes over 5000) calories per day and have slimmed very gradually since my 3 to 6 months of getting fat in 2021.

I think my recent success at slimming (from 110kg down to 98kg at present, with little excess fat around my midsection and feeling like my body shape is mostly back to where I want it as a 50+ year old) has benefited from intuitive eating with respect to fat intake (sometimes very high, sometimes low when sugar consumption is very high).

I've gained fat and lost fat on all-T3, all-NDT and mixed dosing--both on a very high-calorie diet, which has been roughly constant in terms of high calorie intake (which I think of as "super-physiologic pharmacological food dosing"). Therefore, I don't regard these supplements as being sufficient for reducing bodyfat, but rather they have their potency in interaction with other factors, diet being primary.

In my latest slimming, I had stopped the high-dose all-T3 and went back to NDT for 6 months or so. I think good diet, reasonable control of stress hormones and NDT works for me and is less of a hassle not having to dose so frequently during the day. But I also micro-dosed some T3 with high-carb intake or when feeling cold (weather) or illness or a stressor coming on. Dosing T3 to match those external factors seems helpful for me.

I think my metabolism has possibly learned how to oxidize glucose again. It took almost 10 years...very gradually, with lots of setbacks and "paradoxical" responses to supplements along the way.

For people with adrenal burnout, coming off keto or other extreme diets, or trying to reboot oxidative phosphorylation (the kind of metabolism, high capacity to adapt and avoid learned helplessness or being stuck in bad feedback loops that most of us are seeking)...I believe the super-physiologic 120-200mcg T3 routine is worth considering. For you, Mauritio, who have your metabolic factors already dialed in to hit high-subjective-state homeostasis--where maintaining equilibrium and experimenting with minor modifications to see if further benefits can be achieved is the main goal--then the micro-dosing approach is probably to be preferred.

In my own case, I regarded the high-dose T3 as a necessary step. When I travel to tropical regions with warm weather, I've gone back to all-T3 (with far lower thyroid supplementation) at anywhere from 15 to 150mcg in the day depending on how good diet and sunshine are making me feel without much supplementation. In the cold-weather climate where I live, the basal NDT dosing is convenient and sufficient until I want to make minor micro-dosing modifications to help adapt to additional stressors. As many here have observed, the general trend for me has been to require less supplementation as my metabolism healed.

I think micro-dosing T3 and noticing interactions with dietary changes like you suggested is worth pursuing and basically matches what I'm currently up to. My fat intake is so variable from week to week that I can't confidently point to any clear interaction effect I've noticed there.

With high-quality butter, CO oil and some of the other more exotic saturated fats written about on the forum to choose from, we do have decisions to make:
The 1st decision is which fat macro we're aiming for as a percentage of caloric intake.
The 2nd is, given the targeted # of fat grams implied by the desired fat-macro percentage, do different saturated fat types provide noticeable/measurable benefits?

I would guess that thyroid dosing could have interesting interactions with variation in both decisions.

Before starting any thyroid supplementation, I did some fairly careful experimentation on myself with coconut oil in 2013/2014 and I thought I could feel and measure pro-metabolic shifts (mostly how tightly jeans fit, bodyweight home-scale measurement and temperature). I also over-did coconut oil at times, but it was a net positive 80%+ of the time and I still use it but recently I'm back mostly to butter, milk fat, beef fat and olive oil.

In response to your question: I would say, "yes", I've noticed many times that T3 in micro-doses or increases in T3 at super-physiologic doses made me feel warmer, higher basal metabolic rate, more energy and more androgenic/anabolic action/potential. I've probably noticed this more than 100 times in the last 8 years. Fat intake at the time would have been highly variable, however, but mostly what people on this forum would consider high-fat macro percentage, sometimes coconut oil, sometimes butter, sometimes high-dose sucrose. I'll keep my eyes on this and see if I can notice a fat-T3 interaction. In theory, of course, it makes sense: T3 (+ cofactors that must be present) leading to greater ATP and higher cholesterol intake leading to greater production of sex hormones and youth steroids.

 

[Mauritio]

Hi Mauritio, Thanks for your prolific posts. I'm one of many forum members carefully reading your posts and learning lots!

The interaction between dietary fat consumption and T3 dosing is something I've thought a lot about but haven't come to any firm conclusions on. I'll be curious to see what you post about it in future posts.

I was a fat kid. Went gaunt in my teens under high-stress and sleep deprivation leading up to a type-1 diabetes diagnosis. Similar to many forum members, I have been trying to fix myself with diet and supps and intense exercise my entire life. With a few exceptions (e.g. when I went from 95 up to 110kg while blocked out the gym for several months in late 2021/early-2022 during the idiotic Covid-response policies, stress of threatened job loss, etc), I've maintained acceptable leanness (85-100kg at 5'11'') with more muscle tone than I really wanted (possibly as a result of being on insulin).

My case: ectomorph body type and slow basal metabolic rate until coming here in 2013/2014 with pro-metabolic shifts in diet and new supps like T3/NDT. Acknowledging that vanity and body issues (not feeling comfortable in my own body, wanting to look leaner) was a large motivational driver to find any hack I could get my hands on to keep body-fat percentage close to 10-12% range (when I felt I looked best), the biggest breakthrough for me "Peating" has been to completely change my psychological relationship with food. Since approximately 5 years ago, thanks largely to this forum, my relationship with food has improved. It's been a sea change--unlike my entire previous dietary life, which was focused on stern willpower, mental toughness to push myself through deprivation, too much measurement & analysis relative to enjoyment of food.

I'd say for the last 5 years, I've wasted almost no energy on willpower with respect to food restriction. I've been able to design my food environment so that there are no wrong choices to make. I will go on multi-week high-sat-fat intake (lots of butter). I will go relatively low-fat with a macro percentage as low as 10 or 15%, but probably mostly in the 30-40% range. I'm not measuring macros or calories as closely as I once did. Easily, I'm consuming 4000+ (sometimes over 5000) calories per day and have slimmed very gradually since my 3 to 6 months of getting fat in 2021.

I think my recent success at slimming (from 110kg down to 98kg at present, with little excess fat around my midsection and feeling like my body shape is mostly back to where I want it as a 50+ year old) has benefited from intuitive eating with respect to fat intake (sometimes very high, sometimes low when sugar consumption is very high).

I've gained fat and lost fat on all-T3, all-NDT and mixed dosing--both on a very high-calorie diet, which has been roughly constant in terms of high calorie intake (which I think of as "super-physiologic pharmacological food dosing"). Therefore, I don't regard these supplements as being sufficient for reducing bodyfat, but rather they have their potency in interaction with other factors, diet being primary.

In my latest slimming, I had stopped the high-dose all-T3 and went back to NDT for 6 months or so. I think good diet, reasonable control of stress hormones and NDT works for me and is less of a hassle not having to dose so frequently during the day. But I also micro-dosed some T3 with high-carb intake or when feeling cold (weather) or illness or a stressor coming on. Dosing T3 to match those external factors seems helpful for me.

I think my metabolism has possibly learned how to oxidize glucose again. It took almost 10 years...very gradually, with lots of setbacks and "paradoxical" responses to supplements along the way.

For people with adrenal burnout, coming off keto or other extreme diets, or trying to reboot oxidative phosphorylation (the kind of metabolism, high capacity to adapt and avoid learned helplessness or being stuck in bad feedback loops that most of us are seeking)...I believe the super-physiologic 120-200mcg T3 routine is worth considering. For you, Mauritio, who have your metabolic factors already dialed in to hit high-subjective-state homeostasis--where maintaining equilibrium and experimenting with minor modifications to see if further benefits can be achieved is the main goal--then the micro-dosing approach is probably to be preferred.

In my own case, I regarded the high-dose T3 as a necessary step. When I travel to tropical regions with warm weather, I've gone back to all-T3 (with far lower thyroid supplementation) at anywhere from 15 to 150mcg in the day depending on how good diet and sunshine are making me feel without much supplementation. In the cold-weather climate where I live, the basal NDT dosing is convenient and sufficient until I want to make minor micro-dosing modifications to help adapt to additional stressors. As many here have observed, the general trend for me has been to require less supplementation as my metabolism healed.

I think micro-dosing T3 and noticing interactions with dietary changes like you suggested is worth pursuing and basically matches what I'm currently up to. My fat intake is so variable from week to week that I can't confidently point to any clear interaction effect I've noticed there.

With high-quality butter, CO oil and some of the other more exotic saturated fats written about on the forum to choose from, we do have decisions to make:
The 1st decision is which fat macro we're aiming for as a percentage of caloric intake.
The 2nd is, given the targeted # of fat grams implied by the desired fat-macro percentage, do different saturated fat types provide noticeable/measurable benefits?

I would guess that thyroid dosing could have interesting interactions with variation in both decisions.

Before starting any thyroid supplementation, I did some fairly careful experimentation on myself with coconut oil in 2013/2014 and I thought I could feel and measure pro-metabolic shifts (mostly how tightly jeans fit, bodyweight home-scale measurement and temperature). I also over-did coconut oil at times, but it was a net positive 80%+ of the time and I still use it but recently I'm back mostly to butter, milk fat, beef fat and olive oil.

In response to your question: I would say, "yes", I've noticed many times that T3 in micro-doses or increases in T3 at super-physiologic doses made me feel warmer, higher basal metabolic rate, more energy and more androgenic/anabolic action/potential. I've probably noticed this more than 100 times in the last 8 years. Fat intake at the time would have been highly variable, however, but mostly what people on this forum would consider high-fat macro percentage, sometimes coconut oil, sometimes butter, sometimes high-dose sucrose. I'll keep my eyes on this and see if I can notice a fat-T3 interaction. In theory, of course, it makes sense: T3 (+ cofactors that must be present) leading to greater ATP and higher cholesterol intake leading to greater production of sex hormones and youth steroids.

Hi!
thanks for the kind words. I increased my fat intake only because its the easiest and cheapest way to get more calories ,Im not too concerned about macro ranges , in that case I go by my intuiton/ what my body craves.
Did you ever try to mix tyronene in your own solution? Or I guess you are probably using another brand, since such high dosages wouldnt be economical with it.

 

[Randle Cyclist]

I want to note several differences from Randle Cyclist's experience:

-T3 (liothyronine) has mild but noticeable (and very beneficial, I think) antidepressant effects for me. The psychological effect of T3 feels nothing like the "distorted" or "unstable" feeling of high-dose dopamine agonists. Instead, T3 feels grounding and coherence-enhancing, just as Ray suggested (if I'm not putting words in his mouth). I have the intuition (but not hard evidence to back my claim) that T3 improves cell respiration in the brain. My head feels clear, de-fogged and brightly toned (all else equal) after taking large dose T3. I attribute some of this to "clearing Reverse T3" as Dr Wilson claims. Every time I start high-dose T3 after an NDT or one-week wash-out cycle, I believe the "clearing of Reverse T3" has a distinct and euphoric feeling, as if blockage to "happy cellular respiration" is being cleared from every cell in my body. The subtly euphoric clearing RT3 is an acute effect. The long-term psychological "brightening" and "warming" from high-dose T3 or NDT -- even without break for 18 or 24 months (my longest cycles without a break) -- provides consistent antidepressant benefit. It feels like the brain tissue is oxidizing glucose and guiding O2, CO2 and neurotransmitters to their correct location and function. I was surprised that Randle Cyclist experienced brainfog from T3. Perhaps I've occasionally felt hyperthyroid and counterintuitive hypothyroid symptoms on occasion like fatigue or malaise hours after dosing (as if there's a relative hypothyroid "dip" after taking super-physiologic thyroid doses). But taking T3 intermittently throughout the day (4x-8x per day) or all at once as per Dr Wilson's protocol (200mcg in one go at 4am in Randle Cyclist's case) always feels de-fogging to me. Never fog-promoting.


-T3 makes me feel androgenic and anabolic. I was surprised that Randle Cyclist felt the opposite, but of course we're all different. I've always had a strong sex drive, which I think has greatly improved in quality, thanks to RPF, shifting from estrogenic (junkie-like sex drive) to the androgens Peat writes positively about. If anything, T3 accentuates libido by improving (perhaps my subjective impression of my) metabolic function and cell respiration from oxidation of glucose. Clinicians who prescribe T3 and know a bit about hormones have mentioned to me that hyperthyroid patients are known to have high libido. Not sure if there's a literature on this or whether that clinician's observation is valid in general, but it matches my experience.

-Whereas Randle Cyclist felt that T3 was preventing muscle gain (recall, too, there's an anecdote that surfaces occasionally on RPF about Muhamad Ali "losing strength" from thyroid supplementation--I think from NDT, not T3)…my experience is the opposite. I'm in the gym most days and nearly always have been. Not heavy lifting but more like body-weight arm-balances in yoga, high reps with light weights, Iyengar yoga, etc. I had good muscle mass before starting T3. I'm training to maintain strength and increase flexibility. Another major goal in my training: to increase a confident sense of joy (DHT-feeling) or psychological "flow" while exercising rather than drill-sergeant-style negative self-talk. I'd say the quality of my exercise has improved markedly while supplementing with high-dose thyroid (same goes for all-T3 or all-NDT or a mix of the two). I can imagine that competitive athletes and younger gym rats aiming for gains -- hopefully with some reflection about the multiple dimensions on which they might want to objectively measure their gains -- may feel differently than I do about T3. I'd expect more of them to have experiences similar to mine. I think there is more stigma and myth about high-dose T3 blocking anabolic gains than evidence. If anyone has studies to point to in this regard, I'd be grateful to see them. Based on my experience, I don't worry at all that T3 risks blocking anabolic gains. I think the opposite is more likely the case.

Thanks for sharing your experience, T-3. I've been back on cynomel for over a year now at 125mcg a day with far better results than my first stint. I briefly tried bovine NDT before going back to t3 only but it actually made me feel worse with the worst symptom being brain fog. It felt like my head was enveloped in a sluggish, dense mist. This was accompanied by crushing depression, a sensation that I had not felt in nearly a decade. Both of these issues vanished within a week of resuming t3.

Now I no longer experience any of the side effects that I listed in my original post. I've managed to gain about 15lbs of muscle along with a great deal of strength. My libido has returned and I consistently wake up with morning wood each day. Basically, I feel like a normal person again.

I believe that the problems I experienced before quitting t3 and after largely stemmed from a poor diet. I was eating whole grains daily for almost every meal. It is likely that the high amounts of fiber plus phytic acid lowered my cholesterol, blocked mineral absorption, and raised my shbg levels. Switching to white rice and flour while consuming the same amount of meat and dairy has made such a huge difference. Eating 60+ grams of fiber a day combined with an overload of phytic acid probably reduced the amount of energy my body could absorb along with lowering sex hormone production. It would seem that Dr. John Kellogg's theory on diet and libido is correct, at least in my experience.

My plan is to stay on t3 for the foreseeable future. I'm reluctant to go off with my previous attempt still somewhat fresh in my memory. When or if I try again, I will maintain a high carb, low fiber diet and forgo any thyroid supplements except perhaps for ashwagandha. Either the iodine/kelp containing supplement I took did me in or it was the few bouts of low carb dieting I did to rein in the SIBO symptoms that manifested a month after quitting (probably caused by reduced motility combined with high fiber). If I do try again I'll be sure to update this thread.