COLLAGEN CONFUSION

[Rinse & rePeat]

"The incidence of cancer increases exponentially with age, but when random mutations are seen as the cause of cancer, aging as an essential cause of cancer is disregarded. The total collagen content of the body increases with aging, and the stiffness of that collagen also increases. The total collagen content in cancer patients is higher than in people without cancer (Zimin, et al., 2010). This suggests that the processes in the body that produce aging are acting more intensely in those who develop cancer. As the collagen accumulates in the extracellular matrix, the whole body becomes more favorable for the appearance of cancer." -Ray Peat


This is confusing. Isn't adding collagen to our diets suppose to make us younger? How is adding collagen to accumulated collagen a beneficial thing, is collagen and gelatin different, or is this a 'like cures like' scenerio?


"Aging and sickness tend to support the vicious cycles that lead to the progressive deterioration of the collagenous matrix. Stress (even anxiety-induced hyperventilation) produces alkalosis, and alkalosis favors increased collagen synthesis, while lower pH inhibits it (Frick, et al., 1997). For example, within a minute or two of hyperventilating, platelets release serotonin, and serotonin is a major promoter of collagen synthesis and fibrosis." -Ray Peat

Now in this quote the collagen in old age and sickness is deteriorating. I am so confused.

 

[sleepson]

It is my understanding that eating collagen does not necessarily result in the production of more collagen once ingested. Dietary collagen/gelatin/gelatinous broths are high in glycine which is therapeutic for many reasons (i.e. repair of intestinal lining, inhibition of tryptophan absorption, etc.), whereas these Ray quotes are referring to the body producing excessive amounts of collagen in response to various stressors.

 

[TheCalciumCad]

"consuming dietary collagen helps to give a pro-thyroid hormonal effect from the glycine content – improving sleep and reducing inflammation. In stressed individuals, consuming dietary collagen will therefore actually reduce their internal collagen production."

Throwing light on Red Light: An Interview with Joe Hollins-Gibson the ‘Red Light Man’ – Part 1 | The Nutrition Coach

"for a long time, gelatin's therapeutic effect in arthritis was assumed to result from its use in repairing the cartilage or other connective tissues around joints, simply because those tissues contain so much collagen.
Inflammation produces fibrosis, because stress, hypoxia, and inadequate supply of glucose stimulate the fibroblasts to produce increased amounts of collagen."

Gelatin, stress, longevity

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

TLDR - Gelatin (collagen) lowers inflammation reducing the hardening of skin from excessive collagen production which is why in stressed individuals it softens the skin.

Ray said in Generative Energy that copper and enough thyroid to utilise it properly is what keeps the skin youthful
"I think this chronic loss of copper accounts for the obvious features of aging, such as loss of elasticity of the skin, lungs, and blood vessels, the depigmentation (demelanization) of skin, hair, and (in Parkinson's disease) substantia nigra, and for the decrease in respiratory capacity."

 

[Peatness]

.

Great quotes thank you

 

[aniciete]

That green can should probably be avoided

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"consuming dietary collagen helps to give a pro-thyroid hormonal effect from the glycine content – improving sleep and reducing inflammation. In stressed individuals, consuming dietary collagen will therefore actually reduce their internal collagen production."

Throwing light on Red Light: An Interview with Joe Hollins-Gibson the ‘Red Light Man’ – Part 1 | The Nutrition Coach

"for a long time, gelatin's therapeutic effect in arthritis was assumed to result from its use in repairing the cartilage or other connective tissues around joints, simply because those tissues contain so much collagen.
Inflammation produces fibrosis, because stress, hypoxia, and inadequate supply of glucose stimulate the fibroblasts to produce increased amounts of collagen."

Gelatin, stress, longevity

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

TLDR - Gelatin (collagen) lowers inflammation reducing the hardening of skin from excessive collagen production which is why in stressed individuals it softens the skin.

Ray said in Generative Energy that copper and enough thyroid to utilise it properly is what keeps the skin youthful
"I think this chronic loss of copper accounts for the obvious features of aging, such as loss of elasticity of the skin, lungs, and blood vessels, the depigmentation (demelanization) of skin, hair, and (in Parkinson's disease) substantia nigra, and for the decrease in respiratory capacity."

I do understand the value of gelatin and bone broths, for sleep, joints, skin and such, I am just puzzled as to collagen build-up in old age and in those with cancer. Doesn't gelatin make collagen in the skin, or is ingesting the collagen form of gelatin far off the beaten path from bone broth, like supplimenting calcium and not getting the desired effects that milk gives?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

It is my understanding that eating collagen does not necessarily result in the production of more collagen once ingested. Dietary collagen/gelatin/gelatinous broths are high in glycine which is therapeutic for many reasons (i.e. repair of intestinal lining, inhibition of tryptophan absorption, etc.), whereas these Ray quotes are referring to the body producing excessive amounts of collagen in response to various stressors.

Then how does eating collagen make supple skin? What makes collagen build up in skin?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

That green can should probably be avoided

Yeah I can see a couple of reasons why the green can isn't optimal, though it is interesting that the zinc is higher and the iron lower in the green can. I wonder why that would be?

 

[aniciete]

Yeah I can see a couple of reasons why the green can isn't optimal, though it is interesting that the zinc is higher and the iron lower in the green can. I wonder why that would be?

It could be that they use different sources of water which would make sense why the fluoride is much higher

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

It could be that they use different sources of water which would make sense why the fluoride is much higher

I don't know, because it is the same company so I can't imagine different water. Maybe the extra cooking time destroys the flouride? Could that same cooking time make the zinc more available like it did the heavy metals?

 

[TheCalciumCad]

I am just puzzled as to collagen build-up in old age and in those with cancer. Doesn't gelatin make collagen in the skin, or is ingesting the collagen form of gelatin far off the beaten path from bone broth, like supplimenting calcium and not getting the desired effects that milk gives?

I'm guessing the overproduction of collagen is to protect the body from stress (due to the decline in thyroid function) and gelatin specifically the glycine being anti-inflammatory/pro-thyroid/anti-cortisol lowers the stress enough to stop the overproduction of collagen. So it softens skin-tone in those with excessive collagen build up by lowering the inflammation thats causing it, giving the illusion that you're 'increasing collagen production' which is what people are sold on.

 

[livesimply]

That green can should probably be avoided

sigh......I've been using the green can for several years. thought I was totally avoiding fluoride and evidently I'm not. THANKS for pointing that out!

Where did you find that info, BTW?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

...

I'm guessing the overproduction of collagen is to protect the body from stress (due to the decline in thyroid function) and gelatin specifically the glycine being anti-inflammatory/pro-thyroid/anti-cortisol lowers the stress enough to stop the overproduction of collagen. So it softens skin-tone in those with excessive collagen build up by lowering the inflammation thats causing it, giving the illusion that you're 'increasing collagen production' which is what people are sold on.

Hmmmm... how does what you say square with doctors injecting collagen into peoples faces to make their skin look younger?

"In general, injectable dermal fillers are intended to help fill in wrinkles and give a smoother appearance. They are generally injected into the skin with a needle and are regulated by the FDA as medical devices.

Temporary fillers include the following materials:

*Collagen injections, made of highly purified cow or human collagen

*Hyaluronic acid gel, a protective lubricating gel, produced naturally by the body

*Calcium hydroxylapatite, a mineral and a major component of bone

*Poly-L-lactic acid (PLLA), a biodegradable, biocompatible, synthetic material

These products are used for correcting soft tissue defects in the face, such as moderate to severe facial wrinkles and skin folds, lip and cheek augmentation, and to restore or correct the signs of facial fat loss in people with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). An FDA approved dermal filler is also used to fill in the back of the hand."

Dermal Filler Do's and Don'ts for Wrinkles, Lips and More

Check out the FDA's tips to safely use dermal fillers and learn the difference between dermal fillers and injectable botulinum toxin products.

www.fda.gov

 

[magnesiumania]

Whenevery cells are stressed they make collagen around them to protect the cell.

 

[sleepson]

sigh......I've been using the green can for several years. thought I was totally avoiding fluoride and evidently I'm not. THANKS for pointing that out!

Where did you find that info, BTW?

After using a few cans I bought an 8lb bag of great lakes collagen. Used most of it already. Might have to find a different brand. Maybe that fluoride is what has been keeping my temps down... ?

 

[Ritchie]

Hmmmm... how does what you say square with doctors injecting collagen into peoples faces to make their skin look younger?

It doesn't make the skin look younger, it just plumps up whatever is going on underneath it, which as a by product smooths the appearance of the skin (ie wrinkles or creases). Think of a balloon getting blown up, the more air, the smoother the plastic is.
Many people that get fillers don't actually look like they have younger skin, they just look like the have had filler to plump their face up.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

After using a few cans I bought an 8lb bag of great lakes collagen. Used most of it already. Might have to find a different brand. Maybe that fluoride is what has been keeping my temps down... ?

I just bought 3 more cans of Great Lakes Collagen too. I guess it will make good emergency protein :/

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Whenevery cells are stressed they make collagen around them to protect the cell.

So then does the stored collagen leave when you eat more of it, like "like cures like", as I said at the beginning of this post.

 

[Aimer]

Ray said in "FIBROSIS: Estrogen, stiffness, excitotoxicity, aging—a problem more general than "collagen disease"" 2001

The internal state of any cell, not just in the blood vessels, is governed in similar ways by cellular energy and the redox state of proteins, and in the oxidatively disturbed state, cells take up water, as weIl as being abnormally "perineable" in both directions. For example, when a cell is deficient in vitamin E it loses molecules such as ATP and proteins, that diffuse out into the extracellular spaces. When cells are in an energy deficient state, as in hypothyroidism, they are in this leaky, edematous state.

This state of near exhaustion is similar to the "excitotoxic" state that's caused by an imbalance between stimulation and energy production. In the brain, excitotoxins have been found to produce a kind of fibrosis, in which the cells that normally produce the myelin sheath surrounding nerve axons begin producing collagen, and appear to change into a type of cell (Schwann cell) that is not normally found in the brain. The production of collagen seems to be a very basic kind of defensive reaction to excessive stimulation or oxygen deprivation. This makes it possible to see "excitotoxicity" as a general process, that includes the kind of fibrosis and calcification of skin that Hans Selye produced (by combining vitamin E deficiency with heavy metal toxicity and local irritation), as well as the aging of brain cells produced by prolonged estrogenic stimulation. Scleroderma, like the other "collagen disease", affects women (during their reproductive years) much more often than men. Retroperitoneal fibrosis, which can seriously damage the kidneys and other abdominal organs, has been compared to uterine fibroid tumors, and it is commonly treated successfully with the antiestrogenic drug, tamoxifen. Tamoxifen has also been used to treat keloids and to prevent abnormal scars in plastic surgery. (I have seen keloids regress quickly following the application of vitamin E with antiestrogenic hormones.) The fibrotic response to the excitotoxic imbalance can be seen in practically all chronic and degenerative diseases.

like a paradox, eat collegan calm down the cell

Collagen is a very unusual protein, since it lacks tryptophan and cysteine, and contains a very high percentage of glycine. Glycine is the simplest amino acid, and serves as an inhibitory transmitter. It has some remarkable protective activities against toxins, but even the process of forming it has some uniquely protective consequences: It is made from sugar, with the addition of ammonia removed from glutamic acid, leaving ketoglutaric acid as the product; ketoglutarate is a component of the Krebs cycle. In effect, the formation of glycine helps to eliminate an excitotoxin while replenishing the pathway of oxidative metabolism. When collagen is dissolved, a large amount of the antitoxic glycine is released, but not a bit of the excitotoxic antithyroid amino acids cysteine and tryptophan.

 

[TheCalciumCad]

...

Hmmmm... how does what you say square with doctors injecting collagen into peoples faces to make their skin look younger?

I've never read about it but most women with fillers look terrible.