Cold Hands And Exaggerated Vasoconstrictive Response After Drinking OJ+Milk

[oxidation_is_normal]

Henry, have you tried half&half? This could be an issue of too much sugar (not something to say around here, but oh well).

 

[tara]

I find it sad that this issue is again just reduced to fluid intake, like it is always done when talking about side effects of milk or orange juice. How can you all say that? Did any of those drink mineral water or other fluids and observed the exact same symptoms? I would very much doubt that.

I ask because I made pretty much exactly the same experiences as rafreemind: I'm also a male in his twenties and develop cold hands, nose and feet when drinking too much OJ or milk. Mineral water on the other hand poses no problem in the same quantities and adding salt also doesnt solve the problem. That is why I actually think that the problem lies within those foods, either both of them being allergenic and irritating the gut, or causing problems because (not in spite) of their sugar content.

In regard to the initial question, I think cold hands are caused by an increase in catecholamine stress hormones, that seems to occur in people that consume these foods too often.

I'm not confident that this is it, just that it is a common problem and easy to test by changing the calorie density. Not so much reduce it to this as the only possibility, but suggesting it as a very likely one. I have certainly had the same problem and worse from drinking plain water or weak green tea in large quantities.

But I also am aware it's not the only possible problem/solution. For me, I sometimes need water, not more juice, and find the Mg bicarb water to serve me well at times. If my pee is clear, I need to drink less and maybe eat more. If it is dark yellow, I better drink more soon, and not too much sugar or I'm in for trouble. And sometimes a little starch serves me better than more sugar too. Undereating is one way to get these problems, but not the only one.

I agree that allergy or gut irritation could be involved too, either to the milk or to the OJ, or possible excess citric acid from unripe oranges (this can get me). But before eliminating food, it seems like it's worth getting calories up to a reasonable level first, in case that is the key.

 

[Strongbad]

But I also am aware it's not the only possible problem/solution. For me, I sometimes need water, not more juice, and find the Mg bicarb water to serve me well at times. If my pee is clear, I need to drink less and maybe eat more. If it is dark yellow, I better drink more soon, and not too much sugar or I'm in for trouble. And sometimes a little starch serves me better than more sugar too. Undereating is one way to get these problems, but not the only one.

Tara, can you please elaborate what kind of "troubles" you'll be getting into if the pee is dark yellow? Sometimes I have very vivid yellow pee, so I wonder if this would lead to more health problem (diabetes?)

I'm surprised that taking too much sugar would create issues, since Peat diet recommends to eat/drink as much fruit and sugar as possible. This topic is very rarely covered here in the forum. Sometimes I think Peat diet will either get us healthier or sicker. There's fine line somewhere....

 

[thebigpeatowski]

This topic is very rarely covered here in the forum. Sometimes I think Peat diet will either get us healthier or sicker. There's fine line somewhere....

There are many variables and everyone is slightly different: different ages, sexes, diet backgrounds, gut microbes, levels of activity. food tolerances etc.

Rapidly switching over to a Peat diet, IF vastly different from what your body is used to eating, might certainly make a person feel worse depending on the variables, but EVENTUALLY you will adjust and heal.....takes a lot of patience, experimenting and plain old time....at least that's been my experience.

Certain B vits can make your pee bright yellow :2cents

 

[Blossom]

:1

 

[tara]

But I also am aware it's not the only possible problem/solution. For me, I sometimes need water, not more juice, and find the Mg bicarb water to serve me well at times. If my pee is clear, I need to drink less and maybe eat more. If it is dark yellow, I better drink more soon, and not too much sugar or I'm in for trouble. And sometimes a little starch serves me better than more sugar too. Undereating is one way to get these problems, but not the only one.

Tara, can you please elaborate what kind of "troubles" you'll be getting into if the pee is dark yellow? Sometimes I have very vivid yellow pee, so I wonder if this would lead to more health problem (diabetes?)

I'm surprised that taking too much sugar would create issues, since Peat diet recommends to eat/drink as much fruit and sugar as possible. This topic is very rarely covered here in the forum. Sometimes I think Peat diet will either get us healthier or sicker. There's fine line somewhere....

As thebigpeatowski said, riboflavin yellow can do it, and that's benign. But if it's much darker than that in the evening, I think I have higher migraine risk the next morning.

I don't think Peat says to eat as much sugar as possible. I think he says:
- to eat enough sugar to keep your blood sugar from falling too low and setting off stress reactions
- to eat enough to refill glycogen to help keep the the supply steady over the day
- enough sugar to provide you with a good portion of the energy you need for the day - for basal metabolic rate, for activity, and for repair etc
- to eat enough enough to spare protein
- that when you crave sugar you probably need it
- that sugar has several advantages over starch and fat as fuel
- that low calorie intake tends to go with low metabolism
- and sometimes a big sugary calorie intake can interrupt an acute issue (like his own migraines, which has successfully interrupted with large amounts of icecream or milkshakes - wish it would work for me).
- that hyperglycemia can sometimes be a transient state that is not always a cause for major concern, or medication, or carb restriction

In general, I would think when sugar tastes bad it may be a sign that you have eaten enough of it for now, and it may not be helpful to keep eating it. But for people who are coming to this from a history of either severe low carb dieting or low calorie undereating, I don't know if there is a way to increase the body's ability to handle the sugar well without at least sometimes pushing the blood sugar up to levels that would not be optimal all the time. I wonder if this is part of how the body can recognise that there is now sufficient surplus energy in the system that it can afford to bring various processes and hormones, including thyroid, back up to speed. In this area I am speculating and would love to know Peat's opinion. What seems clear is that if someone has been living on say 1200 cals a day, and eating an additional 50 g of sweet calories tastes and feels bad, they are unlikely to be able to get their metabolism up without somehow getting their energy consumption up. And from what I read from Peat, ideally a good chunk of that would eventually, ideally eventually from much more sugar. How best to make that happen? - there are various ideas around.

There is some related discussion by Haidut and others in these threads:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5525
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5652

 

[Strongbad]

Thank you, Tara. Very helpful information :)

 

[factosauras]

The reason OJ makes you colder than sugared water is the potassium. Potassium has a tendency to "wash out" hypothyroid individuals, and I've heard it said that potassium is counterbalanced by sodium. Hypos already have low sodium, so more potassium can cause greater sodium loss.

Being cold and having a stress response after drinking liquids comes from diluting your extracellular fluid. Your intra and extra-cellular fluids need to be maintained at certain concentrations, and this homeostatic balance is already difficult to maintain for people with low metabolic rates. Throwing in a lot more liquid dilutes the solution even further, damaging your body's ability to produce energy.

The reason some of you experience warmth followed by coldness with starch is that the glucose from starch is rapidly absorbed and utilized, giving you the warm sleepy feeling due to stress-hormones being turned off and metabolism temporarily increasing. The eventual stress-response comes from the insulin released in response to the rapid rise in blood glucose levels. The high amount of insulin clears the glucose out of your blood stream quickly, causing a rapid fall in blood sugar levels. Falling blood sugar triggers release of adrenaline and cortisol, which makes you feel cold and shitty. The adrenaline and cortisol cause the release of fatty acids from storage, and begin breaking down proteins, which further interferes with metabolic rate and the efficient use of carbohydrate for energy. This is one of the big reasons Peat advocates for sugar and fruit over starch, because the fructose in sugar and fruit allows for maintenance of much more stable blood sugar levels.

 

[jyb]

The reason some of you experience warmth followed by coldness with starch is that the glucose from starch is rapidly absorbed and utilized, giving you the warm sleepy feeling due to stress-hormones being turned off and metabolism temporarily increasing. The eventual stress-response comes from the insulin released in response to the rapid rise in blood glucose levels. The high amount of insulin clears the glucose out of your blood stream quickly, causing a rapid fall in blood sugar levels. Falling blood sugar triggers release of adrenaline and cortisol, which makes you feel cold and s****y.

It's an interpretation I read before but I'm skeptic. When you eat a starch meal, or a conventional meal, or just a meal with a lot of glucose, your blood glucose will spike post meal and so will your insulin. Provided you don't have insulin problems, this should bring blood glucose down back that a normal level, usually where it was before the meal unless you were actually hypoglycaemic (which is harmful and should not occur on a good diet). So that's normal, you eat a lot of carb at once so blood glucose rise and the body does what it can to prevent the post-meal hyperglycaemia or to store it, depending on your interpretation.

However, the time it takes for a healthy person to get blood glucose to normal levels can take an hour or two or more. Also, it should not normally make it drop below the normal level. Yet, when I eat conventional or starchy meals I feel my energy is less good soon after, not hours afters. In fact the burden seems to clear up after a few hours. So I think its more likely that the symptoms I get are just from post-meal hyperglycaemia and/or the stress it forces the body into to manage this, not some hypoglycaemia which would occur much later and only if I was secreting too much insulin which I'm not sure is the case. I speculate that the degree of post-meal glucose spike might matter - as you would expect there is a difference in magnitude between the rise you see after drinking a cup of milk or some chocolate bar, and a meal with more glucose content like a baked potato. There seems to be rough idea in studies of the threshold for blood glucose toxicity for neurons for example, and you wouldn't reach that level much by eating a bit of sugar or lactose, but at the same time Ray seems to say the elevated glucose itself is not a worry so I'll let you make your own opinion (ultimately if you have enough money you could measure your H1A1C to get an idea of any damage).

I experimented with glucose test strips that diabetics use and my reaction to lots of glucose seems consistent with the charts of non-diabetics you can read off the internet - you see an elevation of blood glucose for a while before going to normal, but it's gradual it doesn't just drop off like you said. And that's even in the presence of highly insulin stimulating foods like dairy. Note that you talked about starch, but I don't really see why it wouldn't happen if you have lots of milk+OJ at once. An easy fix in my opinion is not to add the OJ, as the milk already has enough glucose to keep glucose normal or high for a very long while, unless you're avoiding saturated fats in your diet in which case you will need to up glucose more frequently to avoid hypoglycaemia (and that cycle will break when you sleep, but that's another discussion...).

 

[stargazer1111]

The reason OJ makes you colder than sugared water is the potassium. Potassium has a tendency to "wash out" hypothyroid individuals, and I've heard it said that potassium is counterbalanced by sodium. Hypos already have low sodium, so more potassium can cause greater sodium loss.

Being cold and having a stress response after drinking liquids comes from diluting your extracellular fluid. Your intra and extra-cellular fluids need to be maintained at certain concentrations, and this homeostatic balance is already difficult to maintain for people with low metabolic rates. Throwing in a lot more liquid dilutes the solution even further, damaging your body's ability to produce energy.

The reason some of you experience warmth followed by coldness with starch is that the glucose from starch is rapidly absorbed and utilized, giving you the warm sleepy feeling due to stress-hormones being turned off and metabolism temporarily increasing. The eventual stress-response comes from the insulin released in response to the rapid rise in blood glucose levels. The high amount of insulin clears the glucose out of your blood stream quickly, causing a rapid fall in blood sugar levels. Falling blood sugar triggers release of adrenaline and cortisol, which makes you feel cold and shitty. The adrenaline and cortisol cause the release of fatty acids from storage, and begin breaking down proteins, which further interferes with metabolic rate and the efficient use of carbohydrate for energy. This is one of the big reasons Peat advocates for sugar and fruit over starch, because the fructose in sugar and fruit allows for maintenance of much more stable blood sugar levels.

It's actually not true that high potassium causes you to lose sodium. It's the other way around.

Higher potassium intake stimulates higher levels of aldosterone which causes you to retain more sodium. I believe this is an attempt by the body to maintain the ratio between the two.

That said, I have seen it posited that humans evolved getting somewhere close to 15 grams of potassium per day on average while only getting around 2.5 grams of sodium. But, evolutionary arguments for what is optimal are quite flawed in my view so I would take that with a grain of salt, pun intended.