Cold Hands And Exaggerated Vasoconstrictive Response After Drinking OJ+Milk

[rafreemind]

Hi,

I am a 28 y/o male and I would like to see if anyone has any ideas about what could be causing a certain response I get from drinking OJ and milk.

It's a response that I have seen in the past, which I think might have to do with body temperature. In the past, I would notice that the response wouldn't occur when I was in environments with fairly warm ambient temperature. I think it might also be related with blood sugar, since I want to say that I would notice it after not eating for a while and when waking up in the morning.

I say "in the past", because I used to get this response when following a Paleo and then a somewhat PHD style of eating. I switched to PHD after noticing that more carbs seemed to be better for me, though I think I still wasn't always getting as many carbs as the PHD recommends. Eventually, I stopped following any dietary approach and basically ate whatever I wanted -- which I think actually made me feel better in some respects. I didn't keep good track of it, but I want to say that this vasoconstrictive response went away significantly, if not entirely, when I just ate whatever I wanted.

Basically, the parts of my fingers from about the knuckles to the tips become very light colored. It can be quite noticeable. I don't believe it is Raynaud's Phenomenon, since I have never seen my fingers turn blue. The fact that it seems to be related to body temperature (and that it doesn't seem to be Raynaud's Phenomenon) is why I think it's some kind of exaggerated vasoconstrictive response. Apparently, with the vasoconstrictive response, the body is trying to keep heat in the core and away from the extremities. I also notice that my fingers are (sometimes?) cold when this happens.

Now, I mentioned that I want to say this vasoconstrictive response had significantly gone away when I was eating whatever I wanted. However, I recently started experimenting with a Ray Peat approach, maybe 3 weeks ago, in order to see whether it would provide any benefits, and I have been noticing this vasoconstrictive response that I had seen in the past.

I have been following a very simple regimen of drinking 8 cups of OJ and 8 cups of milk per day. I drink the OJ and milk at the same time, for 4 servings a day (2 cups of each at a time). I also consume salt and Natural Calm at the same time. I don't see why the salt would be the cause and I was getting the vasoconstrictive response before I started taking Natural Calm, so that is not the cause. At night, I eat a tbsp of coconut oil and I might drink a few cans of pop and eat some pork rinds or candy.

I have seen this response happen fairly quickly after drinking OJ and milk, but this is not the only time that I see it. For example, I noticed it this morning after waking up and having not consumed anything for hours.

Another thing I've noticed is that eating starch seems to help. Why is this? Is it that my body has a problem with all of the sugar in the OJ, but it doesn't have a problem with starch?

I have been measuring my temperature and pulse, now and then, since starting this diet. My pulse tends to be in the 60-70 range. I'd say my temperature tends to be in the range of 97.0 - 98.0.

In terms of my health status, I haven't had a blood test for a while. However, I have reason to suspect some kind of hormonal issues -- specifically, issues related to thyroid and, perhaps, testosterone and adrenals.

Ever since 2010, I have been monitoring my TSH, which has often been in the 4-6 range -- sometimes higher. I think there is some kind of connection with body temperature, here. I've only gotten 1 blood test in the last two years, about, but before that time I was monitoring TSH a fair bit and I had seen it reach as high as 15-20 before -- but it was also 0.01 one time. I have never taken thyroid hormone. The time that it was 0.01, I was spending most of my days in a very warm apartment all day (like +86°F).

My testosterone was apparently normal last time I had it checked (626 ng/dl), however it has been low in the past. One odd thing was that when my testosterone was low, my LH and FSH were apparently low-normal. An endocrinologist was concerned about this, because apparently LH and FSH should be high when testosterone is low, in order to try and raise the testosterone level.

In terms of adrenals, I don't have much data. I did a salivary cortisol test near the end of 2011 and the morning and noon readings were slightly depressed -- however, that was a few years ago with a different diet and lifestyle. One thing I have noticed, though, since this vasoconstrictive response has come back, is a few times where I have had what may be an exaggerated fight-or-flight response, which is also something that I used to get before -- where psychological stressors can put me "on edge" for a period of time, unless I consciously do things to relax myself.

With all that being said, does anyone have any ideas as to what could be going on here? I would greatly appreciate any help/suggestions.

Thank you.

 

[rafreemind]

After thinking about it some more and running my diet through cronometer, I'm wondering if I may just not be getting enough calories.

I have a physical job, working 10 hours a day. I've tried to approximate this in cronometer and it is saying that I need like 3300 calories. With my diet, I am maybe getting 2500 calories on some days -- maybe more when I binge on granulated sugar haha.

 

[Blossom]

I think your probably right or at least upping your calories to see if it helps would be a logical place to start.

 

[Such_Saturation]

The orange juice makes me cold for some reason, sugary water doesn't.

 

[SQu]

Any reason you weren't taking thyroid? when hypothyroid, too much liquid can really cool you down badly. Some of us hypothyroid types take time to be able to handle much liquid and have to look at ways to concentrate nutrients more. Eg cheese to replace some of the milk. sugar and honey. Starch may feel better for you for this reason, or it might easily be cortisol - there are other big issues with starch.

 

[rafreemind]

Any reason you weren't taking thyroid?

Off the top of my head, I'd say there are a few reasons for this:

1. I have few health-related issues and, even then, I think some of them might be caused by psychological factors.

2. I was always trying to find an underlying cause for my hormonal issues that I could resolve and if I could get my TSH into normal range, without thyroid hormone.

3. Even if I wanted to take thyroid hormone, I haven't done the research to know which thyroid medication I should take and in what dosages. I am skeptical that the average endocrinologist knows this and I haven't done the research to find someone who I would trust to know this. IIRC, I've heard people say things like, "try X approach and see if you feel better", but I don't find this to be convincing advice. Just because something makes you feel better doesn't mean you should be doing/taking it. I would want to find out:
- If I'm going to take thyroid medication, what should my goal be? For example, is it getting my temperature and pulse within a certain range and TSH below a certain level -- and if so, why?
- Which thyroid medication should I take, in order to achieve this goal -- and why?

when hypothyroid, too much liquid can really cool you down badly.

Too much liquid or too much cold liquid?

Starch may feel better for you for this reason, or it might easily be cortisol - there are other big issues with starch.

What do you mean when you say "it might easily be cortisol"?

 

[Surfari]

I get cold and tired if I drink a cup of oj and a cup of milk within 10 or 15 minutes. If I spread it out over an hour, or with food, I’m fine. I just can't process that much of any liquid in a short amount of time.

 

[tara]

rafreemind
I'm with you and the others - I pick too low calories and too low calorie density.
While your looking at cronometer, you could check if your getting around 100 g protein a day, too.

I thought raynauds syndrome was just a more severe case of vasoconstriction in fingers etc - blue is worse than white, but still basically the same mechanism? I've had the white cold fingers many times in the past.

When I started out at this, and maybe it will happen again in winter, I found that first thing in the morning I needed higher calorie density than straight OJ or milk could provide. I used to add sugar to the OJ. And sometimes I found starch helpful for similar reasons (though as sueq says, there are downsides for some people). You can get a bit of an idea about whether you are overdoing the liquids by watching the colour of your pee, as well as just paying ttention to how you feel and what you feel like. If you are peeing clear you may well need a higher food:water ratio. If you are craving sugar, it could well be that you need some. I find I can sometimes handle (and sometimes need), more liquid in the afternoons.

 

[Tom]

Perhaps it is the high potassium in OJ and milk (and the high potassium to sodium ratio) could have a kind of anti-stimulating effect that accounts for the misery. This would particulary be true if you get the same type of reaction if consuming potatoes (high potassium) along with the milk, but not if consuming white rice (low potassium) with it. If so the solution is just to add somthing "stimulating", like more salt, an egg, caffeine etc, or to use cheese + fruits, or milk + honey etc as alternatives. I do agree that enough calories (and enough sugars/carbs) is important to prevent the high level of stress hormones (adrenaline, cortisol), and if stress level is lower then the OJ+Milk is likely going to cause less problems. Exercising or drinking coffee on empty stomach, going long periods without any food, eating large infrequent starchy meals etc would not be recommended by Peat.

 

[SQu]

Hot liquids made me cold too. Big cups of milky coffee included. Now I have it very strong and concentrated, with condensed milk which is not an ideal thing peat-wise but works for me at the moment.

Starch - there are many opinions of it here but some people me included, get warm and relaxed and with a feeling of well being, then later cold and aching and unwell. If you get this pattern, it's cortisol it seems.

From a post by narouz:

"From the KMUD interview of February 15th.
KMUD: Weight Gain, Foamy Urine, Fats, Light Therapy, Dreams, -- 2-15-2013
download/file.php?id=312

The questioner is the KMUD co-host, Sarah Murray.
Go to the 48 minute mark of the interview:

SM: "I guess what you're saying is 400 calories from orange juice
is not comparative to 400 calories from potatoes or rice."

Ray Peat: "...uh, definitely not. It [the orange juice] stimulates your metabolism and suppresses
the stress hormones."

SM: "Whereas 400 calories from baked potato and rice would increase your stress hormones
and suppress your metabolism?"

RP: "Yeah. And then there's the matter of the starch particles, that if you don't have some saturated fat
with them some of the starch particles can set up a whole pattern of stress and injury by entering
the blood stream." "

About thyroid - It makes sense to research it well and if I were to read some of the experiences here I too would shy away from it. In fact, that's exactly what I did for years. I mention it because that TSH level you talk about jumps out at you.

 

[oxidation_is_normal]

Ya, listen to your experiences. Who knows if everyone has the same metabolic pathways. We need systems for detecting altered metabolic pathways in various individuals - so we stop recommending the same stuff to everyone. Again, where all diets fail.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

WAY too much fluid. Matt Stone has written entire books about this very phenomenon you are experiencing. Eat more solid food, and stop trying to drink all of your calories. Drink only when you are thirsty. If your urine is clear or very pale colored, you overconsuming liquid to the point of activating the stress response, which will constrict the peripheral blood vessels.

 

[chris]

RP: "Yeah. And then there's the matter of the starch particles, that if you don't have some saturated fat
with them some of the starch particles can set up a whole pattern of stress and injury by entering
the blood stream." "

So starch is fine (If not allergenic) if eaten with saturated fat?

 

[SQu]

There's tons of discussion of it right now and widely varying experiences, but he does recommend sat fat with it if you decide that your body's response to it is favourable. I.e. Sustained good energy, not a lift then a slump later. That's my understanding of it anyway.

 

[rafreemind]

Thank you, everyone, for your responses.

I did cut back on liquids -- I nearly halved the OJ and milk -- and I am getting around 3500 calories on work days.

I think it may have improved the situation. I'll keep making adjustments and monitoring, going forward.

 

[rafreemind]

WAY too much fluid. Matt Stone has written entire books about this very phenomenon you are experiencing. Eat more solid food, and stop trying to drink all of your calories. Drink only when you are thirsty. If your urine is clear or very pale colored, you overconsuming liquid to the point of activating the stress response, which will constrict the peripheral blood vessels.

Interesting.

I may look into his work. Thanks.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I don't know, my urine is always a strong yellow... milk is basically like drinking blood as far as that is concerned.

 

[Strongbad]

Lowering fluid intake for hypothyroid people is a hugely important. I reduced my OJ + milk intake this weekend and my temp went up from 96.4 to 97.5. The bloating feeling also disappears, so I could actually eat solid food like normal person without the need to force-feed myself, which I have been doing in the last 2 months just to get enough daily calories.

A lot of things Peat suggests can actually be harmful to hypothyroid people. Caffeine / coffee, for instance, is great when your basal metabolic rate is 98.5-ish and up, but when it's lower than that, you'll more likely to get adrenaline and cortisol rush (aka. adrenal fatigue eventhough some people will argue it's low thyroid which is true, too). Adrenaline and cortisol rush = more prolactin = more hairloss. The last thing hypo people want is more hairloss. I'm speaking from my own experience within the last 2 weeks, since I've been having lots of adrenaline and cortisol rush from my low thyroid passing on the work to adrenal gland instead hence adrenal fatigue. My hair is also thinning much faster than before I got into Ray Peat diet (although initially, Ray Peat diet grows my hair a little since I didn't use caffeine in my newfound diet)

So for hypothyroid people, avoid too much OJ + milk. Only drink when you're thirsty. Replace OJ with honey and milk with cottage cheese and/or greek yogurt. Avoid caffeine/coffee because if you're hypo then it'll produce little T3 and your adrenal gotta do all the work, hence adrenal fatigue = more adrenaline, cortisol, prolactin => more hair loss.

 

[Henry]

I find it sad that this issue is again just reduced to fluid intake, like it is always done when talking about side effects of milk or orange juice. How can you all say that? Did any of those drink mineral water or other fluids and observed the exact same symptoms? I would very much doubt that.

I ask because I made pretty much exactly the same experiences as rafreemind: I'm also a male in his twenties and develop cold hands, nose and feet when drinking too much OJ or milk. Mineral water on the other hand poses no problem in the same quantities and adding salt also doesnt solve the problem. That is why I actually think that the problem lies within those foods, either both of them being allergenic and irritating the gut, or causing problems because (not in spite) of their sugar content.

In regard to the initial question, I think cold hands are caused by an increase in catecholamine stress hormones, that seems to occur in people that consume these foods too often.

 

[Strongbad]

If both orange juice and milk are allergenic and irritating the gut, then the solution is the same: replace those with either better brands or more solid alternatives like honey, cottage cheese, greek yogurt and eggshell powder.

The main question: is OP hypothyroid? Hypothyroid people have water retention problem, hence they should drink less liquid and eat more solid food.