Cognitive Empathy

[Thoushant]

Hello!

I'm having trouble with cognitive empathy, which in my understanding is the ability to imagine where someone might be coming from, what they're thinking and their between the lines meaning.

I'm overly logical, and while it swings up and down, I find my baseline to be a bit contemptous when others don't talk directly about matters and I feel guilty if I say something "sinister" or inbetween lines in social settings.

I'm really good at identifying emotions in others, but it is more "let me check in" and not continous and I don't have the "timeline of other peoples emotions" or my own for that sake. I am clueless as to why they might be feeling that way, and I don't know how to respond because of that. Everything is a bit "vague" and I am fearful of misunderstandings or labeling what someone else's experience might be.

I'm having trouble with the superficial "facades" of everyday life, the small gestures to aprreciate one another comes of as fake to me, and I feel fake if I do them (like small talk, silence fillers, over appreciation of events and others, general "agreeing" statements, that is said with a different intention).

I was hoping some of you might have dealt with something similar, and how you may have tackled it?
PS: The few times I've smoked weed(white widow, the whole week after I have improved cognitive empathy, and I have an actual understanding of social events.Problem is, I don't like the droopy eyelids, and I don't want to rely to heavily on it.

 

[Drareg]

Sound like the weed drops your ego, why it does this is difficult to understand, we know pregnenolone will increase to block THC. The weed however will have roundabout repercussions on your perceptions, if it is estrogenic for example, these effects will show probably after the high wears off. Estrogen will skew your perceptions. Serotonin worth looking at here also.

It's important to note the context of these situations you speak of, your behaviour could be justified as much as it could be your own perceptions that are wrong. Show me your friends and I will show you,you etc.

Modern culture does not accept contardictory views with a growth mindset, the echo chamber that is social media reinforces people's personal whims, people become rigid at a much younger age,can't handle change.
There are more corners you can run to than at any point in history to find people in agreement with you. Very few of these clubs have coherent thinking behind them.

Keep in mind some of the superficial facades were not always that way, in a big modern cliche society it may have become that way,Hollywood style etc.
Many moons ago this small talk was about the tone underlying the words,it was community spirit, allowing another to vent. The form at the core of the individual speaking is what you look for Imo, unfortunately in modern society you have to deal with people who you know have an unhealthy underlying form, it's best not to surround yourself too much with said characters, if you do,just mirror their behaviour if it's for business,within reason of course. Always look to get away from said characters if possible though

I find wit and humour within reason to be the most potent healer,it can open up people who are nervous or being vague because of nervousness ,the divine comedy after all......

 

[Kasper]

I'm having trouble with the superficial "facades" of everyday life, the small gestures to aprreciate one another comes of as fake to me, and I feel fake if I do them (like small talk, silence fillers, over appreciation of events and others, general "agreeing" statements, that is said with a different intention).

Don't do it, if it feels fake. I think best is to be honest, and say what you think. Maybe something like "I'm feeling you are trying to tell me something in between the lines, but I'm not sure what it is".

I have sometimes problems with social situations. I sometimes just don't understand what I'm supposed to do. Should I give a hand, should I give a kiss? I feel like best you can do is just be honest, and say "I don't know if you want a hand or a kiss". That makes people laugh and open up.

 

[800mRepeats]

"I don't know if you want a hand or a kiss"

I am totally using that at the next awkward opportunity! Thank you

 

[Pointless]

Oxytocin may help here but also may have bad side effects.

 

[DaveFoster]

If you really want "empathy," try lowering estrogen/serotonin. Think of a women with PMS symptoms. Does she seem empathetic to you?

Taking letrozole made my life hell, but the recovery phase was characterized by 20/20 vision and incredible feelings of emotional relief, empathy, and a renewed vigor toward life. Don't ever take letrozole.

Another very powerful thing that has an immediate mood-lifting effect is meditation and raising CO2.

Easiest way, buy the BreathSlim device and follow the program, gradually increasing over time.

Be warned that raising CO2 will decrease your appetite. If you do this to a great enough degree, you will trigger a stress response, adrenaline release, and a cycle of hell, so be careful, and be gradual.

 

[Simonsays]

Why are all problems on this forum, even psychological ones, reduced to a hormonal/metabolism/diet imbalance?

Thousant , go easy on yourself. It might/might not make things better , but there are millions and millions going/gone through the same.

I am fearful of misunderstandings or labeling what someone else's experience might be.

I feel guilty if I say something "sinister" or inbetween lines in social settings.

This is empathy!! Otherwise you couldnt careless how others felt,, so you are not sociopathic or psychopathic. Tick!

Life does get generally better with age, thats one of the bloody ironies!! Experience breeds wisdom. But whats the point whem im old!!

Some people put the contradiction in a song

 

[Greg says]

Why are all problems on this forum, even psychological ones, reduced to a hormonal/metabolism/diet imbalance?

I have vague memories of an interview, I think maybe with the herb doctors, and Ray says something like yes, diet will only go so far but a lot of people could benefit with psychotherapy. Then everyone laughed.

 

[Thoushant]

Thank you for the responses!
Intersting about the ego, I'm gonna dwell on that.
" The weed however will have roundabout repercussions on your perceptions"
Is freaking me out a bit, it is kinda true, when sober I always have a "missing out on thing" feeling, becuase I am not.. "in it" like with weed.

DaveFoster: I've actually been using the breathslim, My mood was best at 22~s exhales, but I never got up to that again and have been pushing myself too hard to reach that again. I'm gonna try going slow again. Good to know about AI, won't touch that (Did you have similar experience with some mild natural AI?).
Oxtocinin I'm willing to try, if it weren't so hard to get hands on.. But I haven't actually tried lol.

Simonsays: I do have to work on it(I have to take journaling up again), besides hormonal/metabolic, but I would rather ease up my workload by reducing the problems in the first place, and that would be improving cognitive empathy errors.

 

[Simonsays]

I have vague memories of an interview, I think maybe with the herb doctors, and Ray says something like yes, diet will only go so far but a lot of people could benefit with psychotherapy. Then everyone laughed.

Hallelujah!! Even Ray admits diet has its limits.

 

[Heidi]

I'm having trouble with the superficial "facades" of everyday life, the small gestures to aprreciate one another comes of as fake to me, and I feel fake if I do them (like small talk, silence fillers, over appreciation of events and others, general "agreeing" statements, that is said with a different intention).

I use to feel this way but now I almost never do. Most little superficial interactions now feel genuine, real, and connected. I think that I've very gradually learned to be open, honest, genuine, real, compassionate, etc. with myself, and then to bring those qualities into every interaction as much as possible. I've come to appreciate the entire range of human emotion and have just started to feel pleasure in feeling all kinds of uncomfortable emotions. The key is to tune into the sensory experience of the emotion. Sensory experience becomes pleasureable, even when the emotion itself is initially uncomfortable.

I try to be in touch with my emotional experience of each particular moment and to connect with another honestly from that space. It's like you hold the space for all of your own emotions and reactions and all of what you receive from another. It feels very grounded and present and real. Reduced breathing helps and complements this process.

PS: The few times I've smoked weed(white widow, the whole week after I have improved cognitive empathy, and I have an actual understanding of social events.Problem is, I don't like the droopy eyelids, and I don't want to rely to heavily on it.

I also have found that any experience that you've had with a drug, can be rediscovered without that drug. It's like the drug forms a path, and it is possible to go down that path without taking the drug. It's like feeling for emotional/sensory memory, not cognitive memory. One can try taking a tiny amount of the drug and see if one can recreate the fuller effects. I use to have states that I preferred and would intentionally move into those feelings. So maybe that is a good step for emotional learning. But now I'm working on feeling any negative emotion that arises and finding full appreciation for all feelings. It's an interesting process.

I am clueless as to why they might be feeling that way, and I don't know how to respond because of that. Everything is a bit "vague" and I am fearful of misunderstandings or labeling what someone else's experience might be.

I've become more aware that I am often wrong about another person. I now feel like it is good, whenever I notice that I've misperceived another, or was completely wrong about something. There is now an opportunity to better understand and empathize. Most people forgive blunders, when they feel that you actually care.

I'm overly logical, and while it swings up and down, I find my baseline to be a bit contemptous when others don't talk directly about matters and I feel guilty if I say something "sinister" or inbetween lines in social settings.

I have found that if I am in touch with and sharing from what matters to me, then other people respond in kind and the interaction is satisfying. At first it is scary to share more intimately, but after awhile it becomes comfortable and normal.

I'm having trouble with the superficial "facades" of everyday life, the small gestures to aprreciate one another comes of as fake to me, and I feel fake if I do them (like small talk, silence fillers, over appreciation of events and others, general "agreeing" statements, that is said with a different intention).

I try to never be fake. I say something genuine or don't say anything at all and just appreciate the uncomfortable silence. At least it is real.

When one favors the mind and intellect, it can get in the way of and block emotional/sensory experiencing. It seems like it's very common to be unbalanced in this way. We all have suffered too much trauma. @Xisca has helpful posts here on healing from trauma.

It is great that you are exploring this. I hope that it leads to rich emotional connection. Thanks for sharing so honestly.

 

[lindsay]

Why are all problems on this forum, even psychological ones, reduced to a hormonal/metabolism/diet imbalance?

I understand your point in saying this, and totally agree, but I would have to say that hormones play a HUGE roll in empathy. Stress creates a myriad of hormonal imbalances that can cause selfish behavior to become rampant. It's very hard to think of others in these scenarios. I know for myself, personally, when I was stressed and estrogen dominant, I couldn't really even control my emotions and thoughts about things the way I can now. I would lash out at people who I cared about and stupid little things would drive me crazy - certain emotions would set me into a panic mode. Now I can balance these emotions (thank you progesterone). But yes, I do think many things are beyond diet and an individual has to want to care.

 

[Simonsays]

When one favors the mind and intellect, it can get in the way of and block emotional/sensory experiencing. It seems like it's very common to be unbalanced in this way. We all have suffered too much trauma

Very good. I agree. Over intellectualisation of a problem is a classic psychological defense , of trying to distance ones emotions from the core trauma. Over analysing rather than feeling.

I am feeling really anxious and panicky, it must be something i ate or is it my hormones imbalanced. No, your subconscious memory of something repressed from years back is being awoken by something that is happening now, that has echoes of past trauma.

I suffer classic claustrophobia when in lifts. My heart races and i want to escape. i feel trapped never to escape. I start to perspire.

Is it a logical rational fear of the lift breaking down and me trapped in it? Well, why dont others have the same reaction???

No, its triggered a repressed emotional memory ( the feeling is still there, buried) of my overly anxious neurotic mother, often smothering me tightly, due to her own irrational fears of me dying and her losing me, due to her own traumatic childhood and also giving up another son before me for adoption. I feel very uncomfortable and i feel trapped, but as a baby im powerless to change the situation.

Repression of trauma is a survival tool all humans use, but the pay off , if repressed, is ill health, both mental and physical.

 

[Gray Ling]

Don't worry too much about it.

I think you will like the March 2010 entry on Subrealism: subrealism: March 2010
Note : Jan Cox features in the blog entry. He discusses the problems you raised in his talks, literature etc. He could help facilitate your need for insight to such a common problem.

ignore my signature.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Oxytocin is powerful. But has to be physiological to work. It induces trust and empathy.

 

[Pointless]

Why are all problems on this forum, even psychological ones, reduced to a hormonal/metabolism/diet imbalance?

No one is being reductionist here. We are just looking at physical causes of things. It's a perspective, but it doesn't have to be the only one.

Hallelujah!! Even Ray admits diet has its limits.

But Ray Peat also is interested in learned helplessness and intelligence, for example. He certainly doesn't draw a line at "psychological problems" and say that they cannot be touched by diet. Thoushant is just asking if there could be physical causes for his social and psychological issues. That's a perfectly valid question.

I am feeling really anxious and panicky, it must be something i ate or is it my hormones imbalanced. No, your subconscious memory of something repressed from years back is being awoken by something that is happening now, that has echoes of past trauma.

On the thread about the afterlife, you said that we are all simply atoms that decompose back into the earth. Well then what is a "memory" then? Why can't we manipulate it with hormones? Atoms and their bonds can be manipulated through supplements, diet, medical devices, surgery, etc. Everything happening in the body is a chemical reactions within an energetic field, and these can be changed through human intervention. There is a physical cure. There are no limits on what you can do with the human body, at least not hard limits. We are expanding every day our capabilities to cure and treat disease and increase our personal power.

I think that you have a lot of philosophical assumptions unquestioned.

 

[Simonsays]

Hi Pointless,

I wasnt criticising Thousant, just some of the responses to his post.

The point i was trying to make, is sometimes diet/metabolism/hormones although helpful, is not the answer to all problems.

Psychological problems can also be addressed by a psychological/psychotherapeutic approach, as Ray apparently agrees with, but nobody seems to recommend

Thoushant is just asking if there could be physical causes for his social and psychological issues. That's a perfectly valid question.

Well i dont think he is , his question seems quite open minded to me? See below

I was hoping some of you might have dealt with something similar, and how you may have tackled it?

I think you maybe "projecting " your determinist approach on to what Thousant was actually saying .

I think that you have a lot of philosophical assumptions unquestioned.

Thats quite an assumption! More projection?

Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unpleasant impulses by denying their existence while attributing them to others.[1] For example, a person who is habitually rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude. It incorporates blame shifting.

According to some research, the projection of one's negative qualities onto others is a common process in everyday life

 

[Pointless]

Well he was very open-minded as to potential answers, but he did say that he used a drug in the original post.

As for assuming your philosophical stance, I mentioned how you reduced the self to atoms in the afterlife post, and now I'm the determinist? Maybe you're projecting my projection If you'd like to clarify your philosophy, I'm all ears. All I wanted to do was spark a discussion. After all, a key element in Peat's method is analyzing the philosophical assumptions that predetermine a conclusion.

Your situation with your mother seems to be classic learned helplessness. If you don't mind, can you share some about your treatment? Are you using anti-cholinergics like Ray Peat mentions in The dark side of stress (learned helplessness)? Are you doing psychotherapy?

 

[snowboard111]

" I'm having trouble with cognitive empathy, which in my understanding is the ability to imagine where someone might be coming from, what they're thinking and their between the lines meaning.

I'm overly logical "

Before starting the whole talk about hormones, diets, trauma and stuffs like that, I would be much more curious about what's your daily activities?

Reading too much, spending too much time on the internet/computer, trying to figured things out for the fun of it can make one go crazy... it's a never ending puzzle that lead nowhere . I can only speak from experiences but I think it's quite easy to extrapolate analytical behaviours/thinking to area of life that are not needed and thing start to feel like a game of chess.

 

[Greg says]

I suffer classic claustrophobia when in lifts. My heart races and i want to escape. i feel trapped never to escape. I start to perspire.

This reminded me of something I saw.. A guy called Ed getting over his lift phobia...


Although I don't like confined spaces my claustrophobia comes from my thinking. I will take a situation, be that a job, relationships, commitment and mentally apply bars, locks and bolts and feel trapped with no way out. It can be as extreme as feeling like I'm on the edge of a building on fire and must jump to free myself. I have only just become aware that intimacy causes panic/ claustrophobia in me.

Claustrophobia comes from the latin word 'claustrum' which is a bolt or lock.