Coffee - What Is Most Similar To It?

[dookie]

Out of all the Peat recommended things, coffee continues to be the thing which helps me the most. It is the only thing which removes emotionality and depression, decreases bloat and "estrogenic signs", improves muscle tone and hardness, and which makes me feel more "manly" (androgenic effect?)

I have tried pretty much all the "Peat" supplements, like aspirin, pregnenolone, progesterone, DHT, theanine, thiamine, thyroid, magnesium, cyproheptadine, antibiotics, niacinamide, methylene blue, Vitamins A,D,E,K, etc. and none of them even come close to the effects of coffee. All the supplements also have some bad side-effects for me, which coffee doesn't have.

In high doses, coffee does provoke a bit of anxiety and such, but I would rather have a little anxiety and be functional, than to be non-functional and "calm".

Are there any *safe* supplements or approaches out there which are similar to coffee? (I realize that coffee does many different things, like being anti-serotonin, anti-NO, pro-androgenic, etc. so it may be hard to pin-point exactly what coffee does that normalizes my body so much. But, I have tried many specific drugs, like anti-serotonin cyroheptadine, anti-NO tetracyclines, etc. and their effects don't compare to coffee at all. In fact, many of the supplements seem to do the opposite of coffee, making me more emotional, depressed, bloated, so forth. There must be something unique about the coffee)


(Maybe @haidut can chime in, I know he has a lot of experience with caffeine and many other supplements)

 

[Makrosky]

Hola dookie, sorry I don't have an answer for you but rather a question :

Do you or have you used instant soluble coffee ? And if so, can you compare it with other coffees ?

Also, you don't mention B-Vitamins. Have you tried them ? Specifically B1, B2, B3 and B6

 

[Pet Peeve]

Ritanserine + caffeine powder feels exactly like coffee to me

 

[Such_Saturation]

What's wrong with coffee?

 

[haidut]

Out of all the Peat recommended things, coffee continues to be the thing which helps me the most. It is the only thing which removes emotionality and depression, decreases bloat and "estrogenic signs", improves muscle tone and hardness, and which makes me feel more "manly" (androgenic effect?)

I have tried pretty much all the "Peat" supplements, like aspirin, pregnenolone, progesterone, DHT, theanine, thiamine, thyroid, magnesium, cyproheptadine, antibiotics, niacinamide, methylene blue, Vitamins A,D,E,K, etc. and none of them even come close to the effects of coffee. All the supplements also have some bad side-effects for me, which coffee doesn't have.

In high doses, coffee does provoke a bit of anxiety and such, but I would rather have a little anxiety and be functional, than to be non-functional and "calm".

Are there any *safe* supplements or approaches out there which are similar to coffee? (I realize that coffee does many different things, like being anti-serotonin, anti-NO, pro-androgenic, etc. so it may be hard to pin-point exactly what coffee does that normalizes my body so much. But, I have tried many specific drugs, like anti-serotonin cyroheptadine, anti-NO tetracyclines, etc. and their effects don't compare to coffee at all. In fact, many of the supplements seem to do the opposite of coffee, making me more emotional, depressed, bloated, so forth. There must be something unique about the coffee)


(Maybe @haidut can chime in, I know he has a lot of experience with caffeine and many other supplements)

As Pet Peeve said below, combining caffeine with something to tone down its potential stress response in hypo people can give pretty much the same effects as coffee. So, caffeine + theanine, caffeine + taurine, caffeine + glycine, caffeine + niacinamide, caffeine + anti-serotonin chemical, caffeine + thiamine (B1), etc should all replicate at least the feeling when you drink coffee. Caffeine actually inhibits the stress induced increase in TPH and thus serotonin synthesis. That is the primary reason behind its ergogenic effects - i.e prevents increase in brain serotonin during exertion. So, other things that lower brain serotonin should have similar effects on fatigue and cognition. The BCAA + tyrosine combo comes to mind and you can add some B6 to it to actually increase dopamine as well.

 

[dookie]

@Makrosky , Yes I have tried all the B-vitamins. Each one separately, and also in combination, like a multi-B vitamin. Nothing but side-effects. Zero benefits.

@Pet Peeve . I do drink coca cola sometimes, and the effects are indeed similar to coffee. I guess I meant what can replace caffeine/coffee -- what does the same but perhaps more effectively? I haven't tried Ritanserine , but cyproheptadine doesn't help me in any way even remotely similar to coffee.

@Such_Saturation , Nothing is wrong with coffee, and I have increased my consumption of it greatly, as it does seem that I become de-sensitized to it over time. The issue is, I feel like it's a "band-aid", it temporarily lowers all my symptoms (improving both physical and mental issues immediately), but the good effects are all gone by the next day. It definitely does something "right" and corrects some hormone or something in the body, pushing everything in the right direction, but I just want to do it more effectively and completely. There must be something else out there, that corrects whatever imbalance the coffee corrects, but more powerfully?

@haidut - I have BCAAs on hand, but not thyrosine, and B6 causes bad side-effects for me, even at 5-10 mg. Could I combine BCAA's with something else? What about BCAAs with caffeine, or BCAAs with methylene blue, or something else? Also I'm a bit worried about the articles linking BCAAs to ALS - do you have an opinion on this?

From wikipedia about BCAA:

Certain studies suggested a possible link between a high incidence of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis among professional American football players and Italian soccer players, and certain sports supplements including BCAAs.[6] In mouse studies, BCAAs were shown to cause cell hyper-excitability resembling that usually observed in ALS patients. The proposed underlying mechanism is that cell hyper-excitability results in increased calcium absorption by the cell and thus brings about cell death, specifically of neuronal cells which have particularly low calcium buffering capabilities.[6] Yet any link between BCAAs and ALS remains to be fully established. While BCAAs can induce a hyperexcitability similar to the one observed in mice with ALS, current work does not show if a BCAA-enriched diet, given over a prolonged period, actually induces ALS-like symptoms.[6]

 

[Makrosky]

@Makrosky , Yes I have tried all the B-vitamins. Each one separately, and also in combination, like a multi-B vitamin. Nothing but side-effects. Zero benefits.

@Pet Peeve . I do drink coca cola sometimes, and the effects are indeed similar to coffee. I guess I meant what can replace caffeine/coffee -- what does the same but perhaps more effectively? I haven't tried Ritanserine , but cyproheptadine doesn't help me in any way even remotely similar to coffee.

@Such_Saturation , Nothing is wrong with coffee, and I have increased my consumption of it greatly, as it does seem that I become de-sensitized to it over time. The issue is, I feel like it's a "band-aid", it temporarily lowers all my symptoms (improving both physical and mental issues immediately), but the good effects are all gone by the next day. It definitely does something "right" and corrects some hormone or something in the body, pushing everything in the right direction, but I just want to do it more effectively and completely. There must be something else out there, that corrects whatever imbalance the coffee corrects, but more powerfully?

@haidut - I have BCAAs on hand, but not thyrosine, and B6 causes bad side-effects for me, even at 5-10 mg. Could I combine BCAA's with something else? What about BCAAs with caffeine, or BCAAs with methylene blue, or something else? Also I'm a bit worried about the articles linking BCAAs to ALS - do you have an opinion on this?

From wikipedia about BCAA:

Hi dookie, my understanding is that BCAA compete with tryptophan (-> serotonin) and tyrosine (-> dopamine) so that's why you need the extra tyrosine. Using it without tyrosine might work OR might not, leaving you without serotonin and dopamine, thus depressed. There's a whole thread dedicated to this, look for it on the forum if you want to try that route.

Also, another question : Since you seem to react badly to a lot of supplements... Were they excipient-free ? Maybe you are getting strong reactions to the usual excipients on supplements like magnessium stearate, silica, microcristalline cellulose, titanium dioxide and all that ***t. See Dan's website toxinless.com if you haven't done it yet.

 

[Jenn]

Some days all I drink is coffee...with lost of sugar, gelatin and milk or half and half. If you are getting the jitters, increase your sugar/milk/gelatin ratio to coffee. If you are overly tired the next day (as in used today's energy yesterday), supplement your magnesium at night. You need to give your liver enough fuel to do the work the coffee is encouraging. If you feel better all the way round drinking lots of coffee, then honor your cravings. When you no longer crave the coffee, it usually means your body's needs have changed. In my personal experience.

 

[mirc12354]

As Pet Peeve said below, combining caffeine with something to tone down its potential stress response in hypo people can give pretty much the same effects as coffee. So, caffeine + theanine, caffeine + taurine, caffeine + glycine, caffeine + niacinamide, caffeine + anti-serotonin chemical, caffeine + thiamine (B1), etc should all replicate at least the feeling when you drink coffee. Caffeine actually inhibits the stress induced increase in TPH and thus serotonin synthesis. That is the primary reason behind its ergogenic effects - i.e prevents increase in brain serotonin during exertion. So, other things that lower brain serotonin should have similar effects on fatigue and cognition. The BCAA + tyrosine combo comes to mind and you can add some B6 to it to actually increase dopamine as well.

Doesn't caffeine interfere with the absorbtion of thiamine or is that some other substance in coffee?

 

[Constatine]

Coffee is very anti-serotonin but it upregulates serotonin receptors after regular use. This leads to quite a bad day if you forget to drink your coffee (which is absolutely impossible). For this reason I advice you dramatically increase DHT as DHT reduces serotonin receptors and should off put the upregulation due to coffee consumption. Also what were the ill effects you experienced from DHT?

 

[A.R]

As Constatine mentioned,

What effects did you get from DHT? Also what specific DHT product did you use, and at what doses?

I've read somewhere on this forum that topical progesterone along with DHT has positive synergistic effects, so you can try that combination instead of DHT on its own

 

[papaya]

Have you tried nicotine gum? The dose is between 1mg to 4 mg's per day. I haven't tried it yet, but I plan to very soon.

 

[haidut]

Doesn't caffeine interfere with the absorbtion of thiamine or is that some other substance in coffee?

I think it's caffeic acid, not caffeine that interferes with thiamine. Some polyphenols in tea and coffee have the same effect, but again, caffeine is probably not involved directly.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/anti-thiamine-factor-in-coffee.6733/

 

[dookie]

@papaya - Yes I've tried nicotine gum and patches. I stopped using them due to "crashes" the day after, along with other side-effects, which don't happen with coffee

@Constatine and @A.R - From DHT I got some bad side-effects, including insomnia, paradoxical puffiness/bloat, red cheeks (rosacea), restlessness, etc. One could argue they are typical "high serotonin" or "high nitric oxide" symptoms. Even low doses of a few mg produced these bad effects. Constatine it is interesting you say that DHT "down-regulates" serotonin receptors - have you seen this thread: https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/whats-the-deal-with-receptor-density.13380/ . @haidut argues in it that cyproheptadine increases serotonin receptor density, and that actually leads to reduced serotonin production. Could decreased serotonin receptor density (receptor "downregulation"), as that which you claim DHT does, do the opposite - cause more serotonin to be produced? Also if you look at the studies of testosterone vs DHT, it seems quite clear that DHT is in fact capable of increasing nitric oxide, much more than testosterone does

 

[A.R]

@papaya - Yes I've tried nicotine gum and patches. I stopped using them due to "crashes" the day after, along with other side-effects, which don't happen with coffee

@Constatine and @A.R - From DHT I got some bad side-effects, including insomnia, paradoxical puffiness/bloat, red cheeks (rosacea), restlessness, etc. One could argue they are typical "high serotonin" or "high nitric oxide" symptoms. Even low doses of a few mg produced these bad effects. Constatine it is interesting you say that DHT "down-regulates" serotonin receptors - have you seen this thread: What's The Deal With Receptor Density? . @haidut argues in it that cyproheptadine increases serotonin receptor density, and that actually leads to reduced serotonin production. Could decreased serotonin receptor density (receptor "downregulation"), as that which you claim DHT does, do the opposite - cause more serotonin to be produced? Also if you look at the studies of testosterone vs DHT, it seems quite clear that DHT is in fact capable of increasing nitric oxide, much more than testosterone does

What particular DHT product was it though? There's not much out there where pure DHT is concerned as far as I know when I was looking for some myself, other than Andractim. The rest be DHT derivatives but are sold under the name DHT. Also if you still have the DHT on hand, you could try at low doses, this time along with Progesterone and see if you get any positive results that way.

Have you ever been on TRT?

 

[dookie]

@A.R

It was Andractim. I tried the minimal practical dose. Progesterone doesn't help, it always bloats me up, I would fear combining two problematic supplements

Never been on TRT