Coffee protein cross reaction

EnoreeG

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Re: thyroid or adrenals?? Need help!!

LucH said:
1. diet
Well, I won’t summarize Seignalet like that :
A diet free of gluten, casein and corn. Main guideline.
Better not cook above 110 °. Eat organic and local.
....
Yes, we know that our stomach is connected to the brain. The stomach is the center of our immunity to 70%.
See "grain brain" for more details if "you" discover. David Perlmutter.
Full title: Grain Brain: The Surprising Truth about Wheat, Carbs, and Sugar--Your Brain's Silent Killers.
:yellohello
LucH

From you summary, I like the seignalet diet. It's about what I do 100% now. I see there's also one of his books in English now: How to Prevent and Reverse 100 diseases the new French Way.

I'm now reading Perlmutter's Brain Maker. Plenty of references! Quite convincing re: the effect on the gut health on the brain and on longevity. I plan on exploring his reference too, once I finish the book.
 

Suikerbuik

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Re: thyroid or adrenals?? Need help!!

Wilfrid, your experience remains intimidating :). I guess it is the hope of many! Also thanks for sharing your knowledge and seemingly endless resources!
 

answersfound

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Re: thyroid or adrenals?? Need help!!

Can this be movEd to the "alternative theories and other b.s." section. Perlmutter is the same guy who recommends avocados and walnuts and other "healthy fats."
 

Wilfrid

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Re: thyroid or adrenals?? Need help!!

EnoreeG said:
Wilfrid said:
Hi EnoreeG,

Thanks for the clarification.
However my response was , for the most part, directed to the following LucH' sentence ( not for his previous post on this thread):
" So, for caffeine, [highlight=yellow]the trace elements shouldn’t be a problem in general, unless you suffer from irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) with bowel injury (leaky gut).[/highlight] " because I honeslty thought that I do suffer from a disease that combine those 2 conditions ( just change IBS for IBD :D ). Also intestinal permeability is pretty easy to mesure through the alkaline phosphatase test. Almost anyone here can make the blood test.
Anyway, I'm totally agree with you and like I said above to LucH, I was just sharing my experience, that's it.

Thanks for pointing me at the alkaline phosphatease test. Now, when I read about it on a Laboratory site, I see connections to liver & bone problems, but not leaky gut. How would one interpret the results that would indicate intestinal permeability?

Those links makes an interesting summary of the crucial role of IAP in intestinal health:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8626042
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/9/3551.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15548378
http://gut.bmj.com/content/59/4/560.1.extract ( the full text can be easily find on the net )
Pubmed is easy to access and you will find very informative studies.
As well as the important role of vitamin K2 ( not only for bones health but for intestinal health as well ) in this process.
You may also find interesting information about the relation between IAP and intestinal health on any good medical book on intestinal bowel disorders.
Do you suffer from intestinal inflammation too?
 

Wilfrid

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Re: thyroid or adrenals?? Need help!!

LucH said:
Wilfrid said:
1. His diet is , to resume it quickly,: raw vegetables, raw cold-pressed vegetable oils, buckwheat and rice, dark chocolate ( but tricky if you are suffering from IBD, right? cf Seignalet's point about aggravating foods for IBD ( raw apples could be problematic too..), raw fruits, the use of Biocébé for B vitamins, raw proteins. But I never found his diet nor his research very helpful. A belgium doctor wrote a similar book ( Georges Mouton ): "

2. Ecosystème intestinal et santé optimale " , do you read his book?

3. Try to put your hand on the following book: " Nervousness, indigestion and pain ".
1. diet
Well, I won’t summarize Seignalet like that :
A diet free of gluten, casein and corn. Main guideline.
Better not cook above 110 °. Eat organic and local.
As far as oils are concerned (omega-3), we didn’t talk about EPA – DHA – GLA in nineties.
Not to take literally. Seignalet is not a nutritionist. He followed the trends (Kousmin), with results.
As far as vegetables are concerned, raw for enzymes but not at the beginning when your bowels are irritated. We’d better eat them steam-cooked and according to what you can tolerate. Adapt yourself.

As far as pseudo-cereals are concerned, they are admitted but moderately. I advise to limit them once a day, a small portion. Buckwheat and rice do contain antinutrients. Like all cereals.
Not good for endothelial cells. [highlight=yellow]Cereals cause zonulin secretion. Zonulin increases intestinal permeability (leaky gut). Tight junctions are no longer operational[/highlight] (by people suffering from poor digestion).
As far as I’m concerned, I try to avoid cereals. I eat rather paleolithic. Let’s say 80/20 because I’m not perfect ;)

Additional link if you want to know why grains are not advised.
“Why grains are bad?”
http://www.thepaleomom.com/2012/03/how- ... cause.html
From “How Do Grains, Legumes and Dairy Cause a Leaky Gut?” Part 1: Lectins.
+ Part 2: Saponins and Protease Inhibitors of grains and legumes
From “How Do Grains, Legumes and Dairy Cause a Leaky Gut?”
http://www.thepaleomom.com/2012/03/how- ... se_29.html

See also Dr. Loren Cordain (paleo diet) (internet forum).

2. Yes, I've read it. Interesting even if some people say GM is the evil (Doctor Mabuse). This problem has nothing to do with nutrition ( bicycle runners).

3. " Nervousness, indigestion and pain ".
Yes, we know that our stomach is connected to the brain. The stomach is the center of our immunity to 70%.
See "grain brain" for more details if "you" discover. David Perlmutter.
Full title: Grain Brain: The Surprising Truth about Wheat, Carbs, and Sugar--Your Brain's Silent Killers.
:yellohello
LucH

Thanks LucH for your response. Very interesting.
I would need a clarification about grains. What kind of antinutrients refined grains like white rice or white pasta or white flour ( like a T45 or T55 type ) from wheat, spelt, kamut or einkorn have?
I do know about their antinutrients if you eat those in their unrefined form but what about their refined version?
I didn't know about David Perlmutter but since I'm very curious, I'm going to buy "grain brain".
I, unfortunately, do know Dr. Loren Cordain....I'm not a huge fan.... :D
As for Alvarez' book, in which part of this particular book did he mention the relation between stomach and brain??? Stomach's word is mentionned only pages 41, 63, 86, 281 and 424 and as far as I can remember never with the word " brain ".
Or are you making reference to this wikipedia summary: " Alvarez was the first to investigate electric activity of a stomach and, thereby, became the founder of a new diagnostic gastroenterology branch — electrogastrography.[4]".
But the french doctor Lucien Pron in " Formulaire thérapeutique des maladies du tube digestif ( 1920 ) " was one of the first MDs to proved a direct relation between stomach and GI inflammation ( see also the book, often quoted by RP, " Interoceptors " ) ,as well as mental disturbances ,through his clinical practice. You can get it, for free, on Gallica.
Did the Seignalet's diet address the cause of the disease or only the consequences? As far as I can remember he warned people to stay on his diet for the rest of their live to avoid any relapse, no?
I'm probably one of the few people in the world ( maybe the only one :cool: ) that can eat refined grains and cheese without any relapse of my IBD ( so far....)
See you around,
Wilfrid
 

Wilfrid

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Re: thyroid or adrenals?? Need help!!

Suikerbuik said:
Wilfrid, your experience remains intimidating :). I guess it is the hope of many! Also thanks for sharing your knowledge and seemingly endless resources!

Thanks, Suikerbuik. :D
 

EnoreeG

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Re: thyroid or adrenals?? Need help!!

Wilfrid said:
This link make an interesting summary of the crucial role of IAP in intestinal health:
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/9/3551.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15548378
http://gut.bmj.com/content/59/4/560.1.extract ( the full text can be easily find on the net )
Pubmed is easy to access and you will find very informative studies.
You may also find interesting information about the relation between IAP and intestinal health on any good medical book on intestinal bowel disorders.
Do you suffer from intestinal inflammation too?

Thanks. Great links! Great confirmation of the immune enhancement of commensal (butyrate producing) bacterial species also, in that they provide the butyrate which excites the production of the IAP, which detoxifies the lipopolysaccharides (LPS) from gram-negative microbes. This overall effect, I can see, would tighten intra-cellular gaps in the endothelium, and keep the counts of both LPS and IAP low in the plasma.

No, I don't suffer with intestinal inflammation. But as my immune system is important, I read up on it.

Cheers!
 
OP
LucH

LucH

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Re: thyroid or adrenals?? Need help!!

Wilfrid said:
I would need a clarification about grains. What kind of antinutrients refined grains like white rice or white pasta or white flour ( like a T45 or T55 type ) from wheat, spelt, kamut or einkorn have?
Refined flours contain less anti-nutrients than unrefined ones. But they do. Less phytates for example (in pericarpe / envelop).
Grains, pseudo-grains (like buckwheat) and dairy contain protease inhibitors.
"Grains and legumes contain lectins. Lectins are a class of proteins found in many types of seeds (like wheat, oats, barley, rice, peanuts, soy, etc.) that are part of the plant’s natural defence mechanism.
Lectins are not broken down in the normal digestive process, both because the structure of these proteins are not compatible with our bodies’ digestive enzymes but also because the foods that contain these lectins also contain protease inhibitors (compounds that stop the enzymes from breaking down proteins (...)"
Exerpt from the given link in preceeding post.

Gluten is both the best known example of a lectin, and also the most damaging.
There are several forms of glutens. Gluten is a family name. See details beneath.

let's take one example:
In soybeans, a glycoalcaloid acts as soap on mucosa of the intestines. This occurs because saponins bind with cholesterol, causing injuries that result in “leaky gut”.
Human tissue and animal studies confirm that legume saponins can easily disrupt the cells lining our intestines and rapidly make their way into our bloodstream.
As was the case with lectins, this effect is dose dependent. If we only eat legumes occasionally, saponin damage to our intestines will quickly repair itself.
Here is one reference as example. I have a lot in stock ;)
Saponins and increased gut permeability
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/12479649
Concentrations of glycoalkaloids normally available while eating potatoes can adversely affect the mammalian intestine and can aggravate IBD.
Not sweet potatoe. It's not the same family.

Another example: Millet
[highlight=yellow]People intolerant to gluten frequently replace wheat by pseudo-cereals, supposedly gluten-free (rice, corn, oats, sorghum and millet) in the mistaken belief that these five pseudo-cereals are harmless.[/highlight]
Millet adversely affects the thyroid function and the metabolism of iodine.
Phytates, tannins and other compounds inhibit the uptake of calcium, iron and zinc.
Millets are also concentrated sources other anti-nutrients, such as protease inhibitors and saponins. Saponins increase intestinal permeability and may contribute to chronic systemic inflammation...
2 references among a lot …
- de Souza Dos Santos MC, Gonçalves CF, Vaisman M, Ferreira AC, de Carvalho DP. Impact of flavonoids on thyroid function. Food Chem Toxicol. 2011 Oct;49(10):2495-502
- Elnour A, Liedén S, Bourdoux P, Eltom M, Khalid SA, Hambraeus L. The goitrogenic effect of two Sudanese pearl millet cultivars in rats. Nutr Res 1997; Mar (17): 533–546.

Glutens & friends
As we know, gluten is the protein contained in the cereal grains. It is formed of two distinct parts, gliadin and glutenin. Gliadin is toxic for some people with leaky gut (intestinal permeability).
It is the gluten that gives the texture and structure to the baked goods and other products in which it is used. During cooking, it stretches to form a network that traps carbon dioxide and gives volume to the dough.

The rice is normally accepted in a gluten-free diet due to its very low rate of prolamin (gliadin form); but , for some people it may be problematic. Especially for people for whom it is the basis of their diet (mono-diet).

*) gluten in cereals and pseudo-cereals

Blé (69% d'alpha gliadine) (wheat)

Triticale (moins que le blé mais plus que le seigle)

Seigle (30 à 50% de sécaline) (rye)

Orge (46 à 52% de hordénine) (barley)

Maïs (55% de zénine) (corn)

Sorgho (52% de cafirine)

Millet (40% de panicine)

Avoine (16% d'avenine) (oat)

Teff (11.8%)

Riz (5% d'orzénine) (rice)

Riz Sauvage, probablement aussi 5%.
:yellohello
LucH
 

Wilfrid

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Joined
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Messages
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Re: thyroid or adrenals?? Need help!!

LucH said:
Wilfrid said:
I would need a clarification about grains. What kind of antinutrients refined grains like white rice or white pasta or white flour ( like a T45 or T55 type ) from wheat, spelt, kamut or einkorn have?
Refined flours contain less anti-nutrients than unrefined ones. But they do. Less phytates for example (in pericarpe / envelop).
Grains, pseudo-grains (like buckwheat) and dairy contain protease inhibitors.
"Grains and legumes contain lectins. Lectins are a class of proteins found in many types of seeds (like wheat, oats, barley, rice, peanuts, soy, etc.) that are part of the plant’s natural defence mechanism.
Lectins are not broken down in the normal digestive process, both because the structure of these proteins are not compatible with our bodies’ digestive enzymes but also because the foods that contain these lectins also contain protease inhibitors (compounds that stop the enzymes from breaking down proteins (...)"
Exerpt from the given link in preceeding post.

Gluten is both the best known example of a lectin, and also the most damaging.
There are several forms of glutens. Gluten is a family name. See details beneath.

let's take one example:
In soybeans, a glycoalcaloid acts as soap on mucosa of the intestines. This occurs because saponins bind with cholesterol, causing injuries that result in “leaky gut”.
Human tissue and animal studies confirm that legume saponins can easily disrupt the cells lining our intestines and rapidly make their way into our bloodstream.
As was the case with lectins, this effect is dose dependent. If we only eat legumes occasionally, saponin damage to our intestines will quickly repair itself.
Here is one reference as example. I have a lot in stock ;)
Saponins and increased gut permeability
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/12479649
Concentrations of glycoalkaloids normally available while eating potatoes can adversely affect the mammalian intestine and can aggravate IBD.
Not sweet potatoe. It's not the same family.

Another example: Millet
[highlight=yellow]People intolerant to gluten frequently replace wheat by pseudo-cereals, supposedly gluten-free (rice, corn, oats, sorghum and millet) in the mistaken belief that these five pseudo-cereals are harmless.[/highlight]
Millet adversely affects the thyroid function and the metabolism of iodine.
Phytates, tannins and other compounds inhibit the uptake of calcium, iron and zinc.
Millets are also concentrated sources other anti-nutrients, such as protease inhibitors and saponins. Saponins increase intestinal permeability and may contribute to chronic systemic inflammation...
2 references among a lot …
- de Souza Dos Santos MC, Gonçalves CF, Vaisman M, Ferreira AC, de Carvalho DP. Impact of flavonoids on thyroid function. Food Chem Toxicol. 2011 Oct;49(10):2495-502
- Elnour A, Liedén S, Bourdoux P, Eltom M, Khalid SA, Hambraeus L. The goitrogenic effect of two Sudanese pearl millet cultivars in rats. Nutr Res 1997; Mar (17): 533–546.

Glutens & friends
As we know, gluten is the protein contained in the cereal grains. It is formed of two distinct parts, gliadin and glutenin. Gliadin is toxic for some people with leaky gut (intestinal permeability).
It is the gluten that gives the texture and structure to the baked goods and other products in which it is used. During cooking, it stretches to form a network that traps carbon dioxide and gives volume to the dough.

The rice is normally accepted in a gluten-free diet due to its very low rate of prolamin (gliadin form); but , for some people it may be problematic. Especially for people for whom it is the basis of their diet (mono-diet).

*) gluten in cereals and pseudo-cereals

Blé (69% d'alpha gliadine) (wheat)

Triticale (moins que le blé mais plus que le seigle)

Seigle (30 à 50% de sécaline) (rye)

Orge (46 à 52% de hordénine) (barley)

Maïs (55% de zénine) (corn)

Sorgho (52% de cafirine)

Millet (40% de panicine)

Avoine (16% d'avenine) (oat)

Teff (11.8%)

Riz (5% d'orzénine) (rice)

Riz Sauvage, probablement aussi 5%.
:yellohello
LucH

LucH,

Do you know that you can, now, buy organics oats in France ( avec le logo de l'AFDIAG donc remboursé par la sécurité sociale et spécifiquement dédié aux personnes atteints de la maladie coeliaque ) for people with celiac disease?
Do you think that part of this explanation is given by Dr Mouton in his book ( p 234 ) when he said: " Des peptides homologues ( 33-mer gliadine ) ont été découverts dans la sécaline, cette prolamine contenue dans le gluten du seigle, ainsi que dans l'hordéine, prolamine du gluten de l'orge. Mais - voici enfin a clé du mystère- on ne décèle pas de peptide équivalent dans l'avénine, la prolamine de l'avoine, pas plus qu'on n'en trouve dans d'autres céréales comme le riz ou le maïs " ( sorry for not making the english translation :oops: ) Or do you have any other explanations?
I don't think Seignalet made a reference about it, even in the last edition of his book...what do you think?
Do you have the same problem with potatoes if you peeland cook them enough in water ( and only in water ) to fully gelatinaze the starch?
Do you, by chance, manage to find refined version of buckwheat, amaranth, quinoa, millet, teff ect....? Each time I looked at their fiber content, I run away....No problem whatsoever with wheat, kamut, spelt, rice ect....as for as the lectin goes, maybe we should also consider Dadamo family ( :eek: )blood type diet?
 

Wilfrid

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Re: thyroid or adrenals?? Need help!!

Thanks again LucH.
Just to clarify: I don't encourage people to eat tons amount of grains ( with or without gluten). RP is surely right about cereals / starches. Better to avoid as much as possible. Auto-immune diseases are very complex ( and like Peat often said probably hormones related ) but I think that none so far as the solution. My crohn's remission may be due to my surgery. A lot of IBD sufferer have their life back ( but unfortunately for a short period of time as a second surgery is often needed ) when they got the part of their inflammed intestine removed. I do know people with crohn's that lives fairly well with their medical treatment. I'm not in the medical field but I own my life to the italian surgeon that saved me from death when I got my peritonitis. Seignalet has probably made a good work but his diet doesn't work for all people. Same with medical treatment. A lot of health gurus are telling people ( backing-up their claims with scary medical studies ) what to eat and what to not eat. And I have a very huuuuugggggeeee problem with this.
I saw sick friends ( when I was still in Paris ) becoming so thin that they did not even have the strenght to pull a door....only because they forced themselves to not eat gluten, sugar, fruits, ice cream, animal proteins ect...you named it. I don't consider myself "cured" ( nor I want to give any miraculous foods choice recommendations) because, I think, it would be an insult to those that are still struggling with this s**t on a daily basis and for other , in the medical field, that are still doing their best to find a treatment.
Thanks to Charlie and the moderators to let us have this discussion.
Time to move on for me.
A bientôt, LucH
 
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LucH

LucH

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Re: thyroid or adrenals?? Need help!!

Wilfrid said:
1. I do know people with crohn's that lives fairly well with their medical treatment.

2 Thanks to Charlie and the moderators to let us have this discussion.
Time to move on for me.
That's right. :1
Time to stop digression. Thank you to the moderation.
The subject is: adrenals or thyroid?
If other readers want to put some other questions, open a new post with an appropriate title. Let a link here.
:yellohello
LucH
 

tara

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Re: thyroid or adrenals?? Need help!!

LucH said:
Don't eat potatoes with the peel or young potatoes (green) or with eyes.
I agree with not eating potatoes that are at all green. But I disagree with not eating young potatoes. They generally have less starch. But they are only green if they have been exposed to light, and that can apply just as much to mature potatoes.
 

EnoreeG

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Messages
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If you peel potatoes to get rid of the skin, be sure to get all the scab tissue that might be there. I didn't know about the issue of Streptomyces toxins and have always eaten the entire potato, including the skin, especially when baked or in potato salads. Yikes! This may damage the pancrease. Could it really bring on Type 1 diabetes though?

a threat from potato scab

Why so much diabetes in Finland?

A general description of potato scab:

What is potato scab

I know, tara. I have a pro-microbe reputation. But I certainly don't believe in tempting fate. Whether with E. coli, salmonella, or Streptomyces. Overwhelming numbers of these critters and, well, they can overwhelm. You can only have a "healthy balance" if you have it. So definitely I'm out there with warnings when there's a risk of destroying that balance. I say don't take chances with potatoes that aren't inspected for scab, or came from some processing plant that could have included scab in the product.
 

schultz

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Reading this thread, I was sort of suspicious of this coffee/gluten reaction thing, though I wanted to stay open to the possibility that it could actually be true.

Here is the paper on the subject: http://www.scirp.org/Journal/PaperInfor ... erID=26626

The first thing I noticed in the study was that they used instant coffee. My mother happens to be very suspicious of things containing gluten (she threw out all her old cookware because of possible contamination) so the instant coffee thing caught my eye as possibly something being "contaminated". Sure enough, further down in the study they mention this very thing...

"We also found that anti-α- gliadin 33-mer peptide reacted up to 23% with two different preparations of instant coffee that were prepared
from selected Arabica coffee beans. The anti-α-gliadin 33-mer peptide antibodies reacted neither with fresh espresso purchased from three different coffee houses nor with a mixture of Turkish, Armenian, Greek, and Israeli prepared coffee powder, pure cocoa, or milk-free dark chocolate. These results indicate the following statements: first, instant coffee is contaminated with traces of gluten, which were detected by our sensitive ELISA and inhibition assays; and second, drinking pure coffee but not instant coffee may be safe for individuals with gluten sensitivity and celiac disease as long as these individuals do not have classical allergy to coffee."



A lot of people are anti-coffee, so I'm not surprised that paleo people would run with this study and start confusing people. The study found no effect from regular coffee and says that the instant coffee is contaminated with gluten. It wasn't the coffee that caused the reaction, it was the gluten in the instant coffee.

I'm still open to being wrong, so if there are more studies I would enjoy reading them, but I prefer studies and not some bloggers opinion.
 

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