Coffee causes joint stiffness or collagen lapse(?)

[Matestube]

Caffeinated coffee does not acutely affect energy intake, appetite, or inflammation but prevents serum cortisol concentrations from falling in healthy men.
10.3945/jn.110.137323

Maybe by quitting coffee my knees are stiff because I don't have the same amount of cortisol circulating.

Yes.
Testosterone on its own makes my joints very achy and wakes up pains that had long been gone. Because testosterone in high doses completely anihilates cortisol.
Adding pregnenolone makes those pains disappear in 24 hours.

 

[Nomane Euger]

I've been coffee free until the age of 21, then drank coffee for 5 years straight, then quit cold turkey without a problem for another 5 years, and just recently got back on.
I have no issue at all quitting from one day to the other and staying off for months on end.
I look at my reaction to coffee with a cold-blooded analytic mind, and decide to drink it for its benefits and to live an active life worth living.
Without coffee, it's like my life is passing by me.
With coffee, I have projects, I make decisions, I make money, I feel good, and I live pleasurable moments with other human beings.

do you have any speculation on why that is that coffee make you feel that way?

 

[Dolomite]

Yes.
Testosterone on its own makes my joints very achy and wakes up pains that had long been gone. Because testosterone in high doses completely anihilates cortisol.
Adding pregnenolone makes those pains disappear in 24 hours.

I know that when I tried Lapodin my knees were sore and I attributed that to the cortisol lowering effect. But if drinking coffee keeps the cortisol elevated, taking cortisol lowering things and drinking coffee seems like they are cancelling each other out.

 

[Matestube]

do you have any speculation on why that is that coffee make you feel that way?

Years of bacterial and fungal overgrowth in my gut put me in a serotonergic dominance.
Coffee shifts me towards dopaminergic pathways.

 

[Dave Clark]

Caffeinated coffee does not acutely affect energy intake, appetite, or inflammation but prevents serum cortisol concentrations from falling in healthy men.
10.3945/jn.110.137323

Maybe by quitting coffee my knees are stiff because I don't have the same amount of cortisol circulating.

Interesting. I wonder if people who test low for cortisol would benefit from coffee. From what I recall, Peat likes blood cortisol tests over saliva. I tested low for saliva cortisol, but I drink coffee, so either the tests can't be trusted, or the coffee didn't raise it much.

 

[Dolomite]

Interesting. I wonder if people who test low for cortisol would benefit from coffee. From what I recall, Peat likes blood cortisol tests over saliva. I tested low for saliva cortisol, but I drink coffee, so either the tests can't be trusted, or the coffee didn't raise it much.

The study seems to say the the coffee kept the cortisol from dropping even after the meal. I don't know if that means there is more cortisol produced or if it just never leaves the circulating blood. Cortisol levels are dependent on time tested so maybe saliva tests aren't the same as blood tests. I don't know.

 

[Dolomite]

The study seems to say the the coffee kept the cortisol from dropping even after the meal. I don't know if that means there is more cortisol produced or if it just never leaves the circulating blood. Cortisol levels are dependent on time tested so maybe saliva tests aren't the same as blood tests. I don't know.

How to interpret your cortisol tests (blood, saliva & DUTCH test) for ...

that is a link to a Menelite post by @Hans.

 

[Dr. B]

Yes.
Testosterone on its own makes my joints very achy and wakes up pains that had long been gone. Because testosterone in high doses completely anihilates cortisol.
Adding pregnenolone makes those pains disappear in 24 hours.

does that mean the pregnenolone is converting to cortisol?
and is that just a temporary state needed for healing? when testosterone wipes out cortisol etc and gives you the achy joints. that means there was a pre existing problem with the joints?

Years of bacterial and fungal overgrowth in my gut put me in a serotonergic dominance.
Coffee shifts me towards dopaminergic pathways.

do you use vitamin D3 at all? I got all the serotonic symptoms from it

 

[Matestube]

does that mean the pregnenolone is converting to cortisol?
and is that just a temporary state needed for healing? when testosterone wipes out cortisol etc and gives you the achy joints. that means there was a pre existing problem with the joints?


do you use vitamin D3 at all? I got all the serotonic symptoms from it

I hate D3. It makes me feel awefully depressed and makes my liver hurt.

 

[Dr. B]

I hate D3. It makes me feel awefully depressed and makes my liver hurt.

whats your full supplement stack and what dosage D3 were you using when you got liver pains.
I actually get much more depressed without the D3, i think its because it acts like an antidepressant, has that serotonin effect...
im thinking whether I should use 1000 IU a day as I got bad symptoms from 5000 to 10000 IU daily

 

[MarcelZD]

Genetic polymorphisms of cytochrome P450-1A2 (CYP1A2) among Emiratis

Cytochrome P450 1A2 (CYP1A2) is one of the CYP450 mixed-function oxidase system that is of clinical importance due to the large number of drug interactions associated with its induction and inhibition. In addition, significant inter-individual differences ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Traditional coffee drinking populations (like Gulf Arabs) have a low incidence of slow metabolizing CYP12A phenotypes:

In this study, the phenotype status of CYP1A2 activity in the Emirati population showed the lowest frequency of poor metabolizers with only 1.4% slow phenotype while the percentage in other populations such as Australians, Japanese, Chinese, Americans and Italian were 5%, 14%, 5%, 12% and 13% respectively (Fig 2).

If you are a poor metabolizer caffeine will definitely cause you problems in my opinion. It would explain why some people swear by coffee while others have horrible experiences with it. I absolutely cannot drink it no matter how much I take care of my liver health etc., and I am a tested poor metabolizer.

 

[Dr. B]

Genetic polymorphisms of cytochrome P450-1A2 (CYP1A2) among Emiratis

Cytochrome P450 1A2 (CYP1A2) is one of the CYP450 mixed-function oxidase system that is of clinical importance due to the large number of drug interactions associated with its induction and inhibition. In addition, significant inter-individual differences ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Traditional coffee drinking populations (like Gulf Arabs) have a low incidence of slow metabolizing CYP12A phenotypes:



If you are a poor metabolizer caffeine will definitely cause you problems in my opinion. It would explain why some people swear by coffee while others have horrible experiences with it. I absolutely cannot drink it no matter how much I take care of my liver health etc., and I am a tested poor metabolizer.

what about milk, lots of sugar, cocoa powder, salt, vitamin d?

 

[Waynish]

Because coffee burns the jing. Stimulants aren't free even if you name caffeine a vitamin... Pure caffeine is way more potent to OD on versus cocaine...
Jing is required to heal and is your body's source of post natal vitality, by definition, in TCM.

 

[MarcelZD]

what about milk, lots of sugar, cocoa powder, salt, vitamin d?

I think these only work if your problem with coffee is glycogen depletion. But for many the problems are related to the adenosine blocking effects of caffeine. Rheumatic joint pain, insomnia, panic attacks etc. are more likely related to the blocking of adenosine.

 

[FrostedShores]

I can handle other caffeine sources without a problem, but for some reason coffee makes me feel sick - my muscles get sore, I feel stressed, and if I don't take high amounts of B1, then my stomach gets wrecked. I've tried different types of coffee, but doesn't make a difference. I've recently discovered I have very negative reactions to anything high in histamine - does anyone know if coffee is high in histamine?

 

[MarcelZD]

I can handle other caffeine sources without a problem, but for some reason coffee makes me feel sick - my muscles get sore, I feel stressed, and if I don't take high amounts of B1, then my stomach gets wrecked. I've tried different types of coffee, but doesn't make a difference. I've recently discovered I have very negative reactions to anything high in histamine - does anyone know if coffee is high in histamine?

Could the culprits be the thiaminases in coffee?

 

[FrostedShores]

Could the culprits be the thiaminases in coffee?

Possibly. I definitely feel better when I take high dose B1 (500mg) with coffee, but it still doesn't resolve all my issues.

 

[Twohandsondeck]

Possibly. I definitely feel better when I take high dose B1 (500mg) with coffee, but it still doesn't resolve all my issues.

Coffee depletes B vitamins in general. That's a part of the euphoria of it... it's like stepping on the biological gas pedal harder.

 

[FrostedShores]

Coffee depletes B vitamins in general. That's a part of the euphoria of it... it's like stepping on the biological gas pedal harder.

Ah, I see. I was only aware of it depleting B1. I guess I could try coffee with a B-complex and see what happens. Do you happen to know if it depletes anything else? I've noticed if I take electrolytes after feeling sick from coffee, I begin to feel better.

 

[Twohandsondeck]

Ah, I see. I was only aware of it depleting B1. I guess I could try coffee with a B-complex and see what happens. Do you happen to know if it depletes anything else? I've noticed if I take electrolytes after feeling sick from coffee, I begin to feel better.

I'm not certain that it affects all B vitamins, but I find it impossible to believe that it only affects one and not the rest.

I know some people have attempted to show why coffee isn't a diuretic, but it doesn't change the fact that coffee consumption tends towards water loss.

Regardless of whether drinking coffee causes a stress response (i.e. cold hands and feet, anxiety, elevated heart rate), it tends to cause bowel movements, excessive urination, and sweating to match the metabolic increase. All of these responses are plainly dehydrating. When fluids are lost, so are the water soluble nutrients (Vit B, Vit C, electrolytes).

In my experience, regular animal flesh consumption, vitamin C, and electrolytes are the 3 crucial components to prevent a stress response from caffeine consumption.

Appropriately enough, all 3 of those things are pillars for the adrenal glands, which is the primary gland/body part that caffeine waxes.

The adrenal glands largely regulate nervous activity and blood sugar distribution. If they're weak, the slightest stimulant will disrupt both of these systems.

Meat is basically an adrenal tonic with the easily accessible amino acids which turn into neurotransmitters. Eggs, milk, and cheese also help but for the purpose of adrenal rehabilitation, it's clear to me that meat is 3 or 4 times more effective. Minerals like phosphorus, selenium, and zinc are also highest in meat which all have roles to play with respect to the greater adrenal & nervous system picture. It's not all about getting unlimited excitatory calcium all the time.

95% of the stored vitamin C of the body is held in the adrenal glands. The other 5% is in the brain. The importance of vitamin C with regard to caffeine tolerance should thus be apparent.

Electrolytes are what stabilize stored water throughout the body. It's clear that the adrenals would require them to help with blood regulation, given that blood is mostly water.

So then the usual verdict is reached: meat, fruit, and vegetables are the essential components to reverse adrenal damage.

Raw meat digests better than cooked meat.
Vegetable juice digests better than cooked vegetables digest better than raw vegetables.
Raw dairy digests better than pasteurized dairy.
Raw honey is preferable to ripe fruit.
Too much fruit can cause excessive detoxification and/or acute blood sugar dysregulation whereas raw honey is less likely to incur such issues.