Coconut Oil Leads To Dementia?

[SB4]

Interesting. How did you come up with that ratio?
Is it only UV light that removes deuterium? Or could red light help?
So if one is doing the peaty thang and drinking 2 quarts each of (sea level) milk and oj, plus lots of deut-heavy carbs, would 1/2 liter of light water make a difference?
Where can one buy a salivary deuterium test?

It's based on the studies done on the cigniture health website (this is where I got saliva test, still waiting on results). 1/3 25ppm + 2/3 155ppm = 108ppm so close to what they use on some studies. Perhaps it would, I have seen an interview where one doctor says he uses it to offset his crap eating.

O chemists, what do you think of this simple diy method for light water?

On another forum they determined that it would only remove a very small amount of D and considering that all the labs use very expensive ways to make DDW, I think this is a safe bet.

That's a neat article, and it's about ²H only. Carbon‐13 is much less abundant but has less kinetic isotope effects because it only weighs ~8% more than ¹²carbon (¹³⁄₁₂ = 8.333%), while deuterium weighs 100% more than hydrogen. The kinetic isotope effects of carbon‐13 can be measured but they are negligible relative to hydrogen's.

The most interesting thing about the article, in my opinion, is this passage:

'More specifically, natural glucose source isolated from leaf starch of common bean (Phaseolus vulgaris) or spinach (Spinacia oleracea) is depleted in deuterium in the C(2) position. Carbon specific deuterium depletion in fatty acids from plants [42] and other sources [43,44] is also evident, which generate deuterium depleted matrix water in mitochondria during complete oxidation in complex-IV.' ―László G Boros​

You would think that ²H and ¹H would exist throughout the entire glucose molecule at random: ~155‧ppm everywhere, with the odds of any one hydrogen having a neutron being .0155%—completely without carbon‐to‐carbon variation. But the carbon #2 of the bean‐derived glucose is apparently deuterium‐depleted on just that one carbon [?], which is puzzling. Perhaps gravity is working opposite capillary action in the bean stalk? separating the lighter ¹H₂O from the deuterated water as its pulled down by gravity, producing a distribution in which ²H₂O is tending more towards the lower half of the stem?

And it looks as though the NADH ⟶ NAD⁺ kinetic isotope effects are considerable; this is the main cofactor for these hydride [:H] transfer reactions. At body temperature (94.73°F; 308‧K), the hydride transfer reaction of an NADH analogue was measured as having kinetic isotope effect of 14:

View attachment 8163

The cofactor NADH has two hydrogen atoms on its catalytic carbon—despite only one being written there—so it could potentially exist as a mixed species having one ²H and one ¹H. In this case, a person could be interested in knowing if it would just selectively transfer the lighter ¹H at the very same rate as an NADH molecule would having two light hydrogens. This would be a fair question, and I think the answer would be 'no.'

View attachment 8164

Since the catalytic carbon of NADH is sp³‐hybridized, the hydrogens stay to one side of the molecule—they do not interconvert. The hydrogen on one face of the molecule must remain in that position until either itself or the other hydrogen is removed—after which that carbon becomes sp²‐hybridized, non‐optically‐active, symmetrical, and planar. And since NADH exists in enzymatic binding sites in only one orientation, you would expect only one hydrogen on that carbon to be 'active'—or transferable—since only one hydrogen would be facing the substrate. So an NADH molecule with only one deuterium, as long as its on the correct side of the ring, would be expected to transfer at a slower rate (~14×); there is no need to assume that NADH needs both hydrogens to be deuterium—a statistically improbably event. At normal enrichment, the chance of both NADH hydrogens being deuterium is only .0000024%.

So the kinetic isotope effect of about 14 seems to be a fair number for NADH hydride transfers; but considering the fact that NADH is often stabilized inside of an enzyme could change this number. Perhaps we need to look for at a kinetic isotope study on NADH metabolic enzymes . . . if there is one?

Lu, Yun. "Hydride-exchange reactions between NADH and NAD⁺ model compounds under non-steady-state conditions. Apparent and real kinetic isotope effects." Organic & biomolecular chemistry (2003)​

I have no idea how it can choose to put D in some places and not others but its fascinating. Perhaps it can somehow use enzymes to test if the H is D or not by how quick it reacts? Perhaps this is where UV comes in, if one consumes a lot of D in the Carbon 2 position perhaps UV can kick it off somehow, making carbs + sun = D depleted TCA?

For the spinach it is assumed that as D is pro growth, the fruits and seeds of the plant have high D whilst the leafy green low D. This kills 2 birds with one stone as baby plant has enough D to grow whilst adult plant has low D so mito can run faster.

Not all of the hydrogens exit as acidic protons (H⁺), or as proton–neutrons in the case of ionized deuterium (D⁺). Some of these end‐up as H₂O, being transferred to O₂ by heme‐catalyzed enzymes at the very end of the 'electron transport chain.' The electrons flow through microtubules to distant places where they eventually should flow through a heme complex and then discharged; they flow to the center of a porphyrin ring, convert Fe³⁺ to Fe²⁺, and this heme‐ligated iron(II) atom then adsorbs an O₂ molecule:

[1] Fe²⁺–Ö–Ö:⁻ ​

This then attracts a proton (H⁺) from solution—likely from hydronium (H₃O⁺):

[2] Fe²⁺–Ö–Ö:H​

And more electrons are then collected by the heme complex and funneled to iron, electrons (e⁻) which are then donated to the oxygen species adsorbed onto iron. This sequential reduction eventually ends with two H₂O molecules for every one O₂:

[3] Fe³⁺–Ö:⁻ + ⁻Ö:H

[4] Fe²⁺–Ö:H + H:Ö:H

[5] Fe³⁺ + ⁻Ö:H + H₂O

[6] Fe³⁺ + H:Ö:H + H₂O

[7] Fe³⁺ + H₂O + H₂O

[8] Fe²⁺ + 2‧H₂O ​

Very interesting, thanks, this has cleared up some things for me.

 

[shepherdgirl]

Thanks @Travis - I really like your idea about the mountain springs purifying themselves through sublimation.
Maybe I have this wrong, but - at a little higher pressure, wouldn't the first water to melt (i.e. the lighter water) be the first to flow down the hill, where the higher pressure would reduce vaporization? So there would actually be heavier water at the top of many hills than in the valleys at certain times of year?

 

[shepherdgirl]

Thanks @SB4
So is this a baseline saliva test, or do you expect to see some results at this point? How long/how often have you been drinking the light water?
For someone with an average amount of D2O in their diet, who is properly hydrated, so that additional water is not biologically needed: does drinking some light water help by displacing some of the heavier water? Or does it hurt by adding to heavy water stores (since there is still some D2O in light water)? I guess what I am asking is, should light water only be used for replacing one's normal liquids, or would extra ( but not biologically necessary) light water supplementation still help to remove D2O?

 

[SB4]

Thanks @Travis - I really like your idea about the mountain springs purifying themselves through sublimation.
Maybe I have this wrong, but - at a little higher pressure, wouldn't the first water to melt (i.e. the lighter water) be the first to flow down the hill, where the higher pressure would reduce vaporization? So there would actually be heavier water at the top of many hills than in the valleys at certain times of year?

http://www-naweb.iaea.org/napc/ih/documents/userupdate/Waterloo/animations/global_hydrogen.gif

Basically it appears the higher altitude, higher latitude and further in land you go the less D. I think it is basically D is heavier so falls first and also it freezes first.

 

[SB4]

Thanks @SB4
So is this a baseline saliva test, or do you expect to see some results at this point? How long/how often have you been drinking the light water?
For someone with an average amount of D2O in their diet, who is properly hydrated, so that additional water is not biologically needed: does drinking some light water help by displacing some of the heavier water? Or does it hurt by adding to heavy water stores (since there is still some D2O in light water)? I guess what I am asking is, should light water only be used for replacing one's normal liquids, or would extra ( but not biologically necessary) light water supplementation still help to remove D2O?

I think replacing will be optimal both body and wallet wise but if you drank extra DDW then I think it would also work just not as well. If your body is 155ppm and you drink a lot of normal water then it will still be 155 but if you added extra 105ppm then it will net lower although probably a lot would be pee'd out and a waste of money.

I took the test as baseline 3 weeks ago and have been drinking 105ppm for 2 weeks.

As for getting tested it would depend on your context. I'm struggling with CFS so I'm trying anything I can get my grubby little hands on but if you are young and in ok health perhaps you don't need to spend £300 on DDW or £100 on testing. Although it would be interesting to know...

 

[SB4]

What I'm trying to figure out is how / if the mitochondria water can become higher in deuterium.

If you eat high carb (deuterium) low fat, are the carbs increasing Mito D or not. In the diagram I linked earlier ( Submolecular regulation of cell transformation by deuterium depleting water exchange reactions in the tricarboxylic acid substrate cycle ) it shows oxaloacetate, which for simplicities sake we can call sugar, losing its deuterated carbons as CO2 when it does the rounds through the mito portion of the TCA. So does this mean that even if the food coming in has high D, with a working mito, the D is removed with CO2 and so the mitowater itself remains deuterium depleted?

This one ( Submolecular regulation of cell transformation by deuterium depleting water exchange reactions in the tricarboxylic acid substrate cycle ) shows that when fumarate hydratase gets messed up, TCA molecules accumulate and the carbs have to be used in cytosol with high D. Could D in the mito also mess up fumarate hydratase via the kenetic isotope efect?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Just drink smoothies instead of water

 

[shepherdgirl]

Thanks @SB4
The animation is very nice -especially interesting to see little areas that consistently have more light water inside of a larger area of heavier water. For example, although much of the Andes is 7000m or higher, still there is a little pocket (appears to be in Southern Peru) that has markedly lower D.

 

[Travis]

I was wondering if fruit sugar had less deuterium because of gravity offsetting capillary action. This turns out to be false, and fruit sugar has slightly more deuterium than beet sugar. The reason is that evapotranspiration at the leaves enrich heavy water by preferentially removing the lighter form (¹H₂O). The sugar enrichment reflects the water enrichment of leaves and fruit, which is likewise deuterium‐enriched. These trends are so reliable that the isotopic analysis of hydrogen is used to determine whether or not a juice is 'a concentrate,' or one dried and reconstituted with tapwater. Deuterium/protium isotopic analysis is also used to determine whether or not a fruit juice has been adulterated with beet sugar, as this would lead to a a lower isotopic ²H/¹H ratio—which can be accurately determined.

'More generally it is known that climatic conditions can affect the isotope content of rainwaters and therefore that of fruit juice waters: the warmer the climate, the higher the deuterium and oxygen-18 contents of water. ¶ Rainwater and tap water have nearly the same isotopic content and the water of fruit juices derived from concentrate by dilution with tap water has an isotopic content close to that of tap water. This makes it easy to distinguish diluted concentrates from the isotopically more enriched water of authentic single strength juice.' ―Koziet​

This is interesting how they measure the ²H/¹H ratio of water, which is somewhat like reverse hydrogenation. Analytical chemists use zinc or uranium to reduce water and create Brown's gas (which can also be used to help power you automobile by the way.)

¹H₂O + Zn⁰(s) ⟶ ¹⁄₂‧O₂ + ¹H₂ ⟶ light hydrogen gas with mass of 2

²H₂O + Zn⁰(s) ⟶ ¹⁄₂‧O₂ + ²H₂ ⟶ heavy hydrogen gas with mass of 4

⁽¹˙²⁾H₂O + Zn⁰(s) ⟶ ¹⁄₂‧O₂ + ¹H–²H ⟶ mixed breed: moderately heavy hydrogen gas with mass of 3​

They hydrogen gas has either a molecular mass or 2, 3, or 4, and is then passed through a mass spectrometer; this instrument merely applies an electric field to the fast moving particles—heavier ones being less deflected less and the lighter ones more, which are detected at a different locations in space.

'For deuterium determination an isotope ratio mass spectrometer was used which was specifically designed for the isotopic analysis of hydrogen and comprised (i) a double collector allowing simultaneous collection of the ions having masses of 2 and 3 respectively;' ―Koziet

'This technique is based on the fact that when absorbed by a plant, the rainwater or the irrigation water is fractionated by evapotranspiration, and enriched in the heavy isotopes (deuterium and oxygen-18) with respect to the light isotope (hydrogen and oxygen-16).' ―Koziet​

'Also used was an apparatus for the reduction of water samples and the collection of hydrogen gas for the isotopic analysis comprising (i) an oven containing uranium maintained at a temperature of 800°C; or a reduction container made of special glass and filled with 0.3 g of suitable zinc alloy...' ―Koziet
​

So there is actually quite a bit of data on isotopic analysis of foods, mostly geared towards authenticating high value and oft‐adulterated types such as olive oil and wine.

Dunbar, John, and A. T. Wilson. "Oxygen and hydrogen isotopes in fruit and vegetable juices." Plant Physiology (1983)
Koziet, J. "Determination of the oxygen-18 and deuterium content of fruit and vegetable juice water. An European inter-laboratory comparison study." Analytica Chimica Acta (1995)
Martin, Gilles G. "Detection of added beet sugar in concentrated and single strength fruit juices by deuterium nuclear magnetic resonance: collaborative study." Journal of AOAC International (1996)​

 

[SB4]

Just drink smoothies instead of water

TBH the smoothies will probably be worse than water, if you use bananas apples / whatever it would be 155+ppm.
Now if you just used leafy greens like kale then it may well be ~130ppm.

 

[Travis]

Since deuterium is fractionated by the evapotranspiration of leaves, one can nearly predict the isotopic ratio of a specific fruit sugar given the climate. A very hot climate would have a high water flux and evaporation rate, while a cooler dry climate would have the opposite—perahaps yielding fruit sugars approximating the isotopic ratio of the ground water.

'More generally it is known that climatic conditions can affect the isotope content of rainwaters and therefore that of fruit juice waters: the warmer the climate, the higher the deuterium and oxygen-18 contents of water.' ―Koziet​

The date palm represents a mixed case, halfway between the extremes as it represents a hot climate yet with little water. Desert plants take special precaution to limit evaporation, a fact which makes the deuterium ratio of date sugar difficult to estimate. But since they go so well with coffee, I would still be tempted to eat them even if they had 100% deuterated sucrose. It's a shame that most isotopic analysis concentrated merely on high value goods popular within the European union: Things like olive oil wine are given special importance since they are so posh, although scotch, gin, bourbon, and even Canadian Whiskey [!] have been measured:

'Thus, the R parameter varies from about 2.2 for gins and rums which are obtained from corn and sugar cane, respectively, to 2.7 for ethanols extracted from sugar beet, and bourbon whiskies are unambiguously differentiated from malt scotch whiskies. The method is also capable of providing the overall ²H content obtainable by mass spectroscopy.' ―Martin​

The 'R' value is just a ratio between the three locations in which a deuterium can be found: Hydrogens in ethanol can be on the terminal methyl carbon, the middle carbon, or the terminal oxygen—the hydroxyl. So this study had concentrated less on total deuterium and more on location of that deutrerium, as different plants have different sugar metabolisms. Nonetheless, it does provide some interesting data.

'The three Canadian whiskies investigated probably contain a high proportion of corn spirit. It is also interesting to note that the rye whisky is clearly distinguishable from the corn spirits and from the other alcohols obtained from C3 cereals (wheat, barley, oat). Scotch whiskies also present interesting peculiarities.' ―Martin​

Besides mass spectrometry, deuterium ratios can be measured by nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR). This is more related to the kinetic isotope effect because this measures more‐or‐less directly the bond strength—or its resonant frequency. The heavier the hydrogen; the closer the bond. As the hydrogen gets closer to the carbon, its frequency increases analogous to the pitch increase seen with shorter piano strings and xylophone bars.

​

Corn is the most deuterated on the terminal methyl carbon, but this says little about the total ratio. This author focuses on glucose—in which ethanol is derived—metabolism more than evapotranspiration, highlighting the difference between C‐3 and C‐4 metabolic plants:

'A clear distinction is made between ethanol samples obtained from C3 (corn, sugar cane) and C4 plants. The difference in deuterium fractionation between the plants belonging to both groups can be understood in terms of the contents of water involved in the photosynthesis cycle and in terms of cellular permeation. In this respect experiments are in progress for getting more insight into the biomechanisms of isotopic fractionation which occur in the formation of the carbohydrates and in the fermentation processes.' ―Martin​

So choose your alcohol wisely. Besides being interesting and pointing out another reason to drink potato vodkas, this study gives us another reason to avoid Canadian Whiskey (as if we needed yet another).

Martin, Gerard J. "A new method for the identification of the origin of ethanols in grain and fruit spirits: high-field quantitative deuterium nuclear magnetic resonance at the natural abundance level." Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (1983)​

 

[shepherdgirl]

If you eat high carb (deuterium) low fat,are the carbs increasing Mito D or not.

So does this mean that even if the food coming in has high D, with a working mito, the D is removed with CO2 and so the mitowater itself remains deuterium depleted?

@SB4 - this video was linked on another forum. Check out this presentation at 1:13. They are using Buteyko and rebreathing masks. They say that the ambient air is higher in deuterium than the outbreath, therefore rebreathing reduces deuterium, and i guess that could also mean that reduced breathing could lower deuterium. So since carbs increase carbon dioxide in the body, their deuterium content should not be the only consideration.
Deuterium and Health with Dr. Laszlo Boros, Dr. Que Collins, and Dr. Anne Cooper. July 7, 2017


Also check out Laszlo's discussion of distillation at 1:06 - maybe this could be done at home?

 

[shepherdgirl]

FYI, just found out that in some places it is actually illegal to own a still, even if you're not distilling alcohol. I guess their motto is "guilty until proven innocent."

 

[SB4]

@shepherdgirl Yes I have seen that video, thanks. I still think you need industrial tier expensive machinery to get resonable PPM decrease.

As far as the mask I think, though not sure, you need to be at least more DD than your enviroment. If you want to try it, I have one, it's called humidiflyer, seems to be exactly same as one cigniture health uses except its 50$ vs 130$ however you only get one filter vs 3. Comes with a manuel that gives you basically Buteyko breathing exercises.

 

[shepherdgirl]

Thanks @SB4
I guess you are right, for a 4% D2O depletion it hardly seems worth it to distill your own water.
Thanks for the info about the mask.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

Jake's Journal

Since, September, I have been researching conjugated PUFAs in search of a fat that will be taken into the membrane as normal cis PUFA is, but will have much higher stability due to the conjugation of it's double bonds. It's hard to truly deplete PUFA from membranes, but if we could somehow trick or membranes...

If you search on wiki you can find numerous sources of conjugated PUFA, often at 16 or 18 carbons long. These oils often have use as drying oils so I guess they aren't resistant to oxidation.

I do think the conjugation explains the benefits of the trans fats in dairy and sourdough bread.

But it seems like the body knows the trans fats are different. They are preferentially metabolized, and basically never are used in membranes.

Also, it seems as though the trans fat scare was mostly scare tactics, I mean look at this garbage study that is about nothing: Distinct regulation of stearoyl-CoA desaturase 1 gene expression by cis and trans C18:1 fatty acids in human aortic smooth muscle cells

 

[shepherdgirl]

But it seems like the body knows the trans fats are different. They are preferentially metabolized, and basically never are used in membranes.

Do you have some sources that show this? I wd like to check them out, since I think Peat says that saturated fat is burned preferentially (over pufa).

 

[Travis]

Jake's Journal

Since, September, I have been researching conjugated PUFAs in search of a fat that will be taken into the membrane as normal cis PUFA is, but will have much higher stability due to the conjugation of it's double bonds. It's hard to truly deplete PUFA from membranes, but if we could somehow trick or membranes...

If you search on wiki you can find numerous sources of conjugated PUFA, often at 16 or 18 carbons long. These oils often have use as drying oils so I guess they aren't resistant to oxidation.

I do think the conjugation explains the benefits of the trans fats in dairy and sourdough bread.

But it seems like the body knows the trans fats are different. They are preferentially metabolized, and basically never are used in membranes.

Also, it seems as though the trans fat scare was mostly scare tactics, I mean look at this garbage study that is about nothing: Distinct regulation of stearoyl-CoA desaturase 1 gene expression by cis and trans C18:1 fatty acids in human aortic smooth muscle cells

The body makes mead acid from oleic acid, but also from stearic acid (which can become oleic acid through Δ⁹‐desaturase.) This fatty acid will occupy the sn‐2 position of cell membrane phopholipids when, and only when, a person consumes practically 0% linoleic acid and γ-gamma linolenic acid; this represents the ideal PUFA‐depletion, in term of the most dangerous one: arachidonic acid.

But we do need one unsaturated fatty acid, and that is α-linolenic acid. This will not form arachidonic acid yet is needed to make docosahexaenoic acid (22:6). Without this fatty acid in brain phospholipids, cholesterol and pregnenolone cannot be repelled from the membrane into which it intercolates; this leads to 'white matter' in the 'grey matter' (as seen on MRI) and what is clinically defined as Zellweger's syndrome.

So I think α-linolenic acid, stearic acid, and perhaps even oleic acid could be good candidates. Although oleic acid is mono-unsaturated, it will not spontaneously oxidize in water having no bis-allylic hydrogen—the hydrogen most easily removed, by far; the removal of which is the first obligatory step for lipid peroxidation. But since olive oil has variable amounts of linoleic acid, which can be significant, I think stearic and α-linolenic acids should be the focus.

Wagner, Brett A. "Free radical-mediated lipid peroxidation in cells: oxidizability is a function of cell lipid bis-allylic hydrogen content." Biochemistry (1994)​

 

[Mito]

only when, a person consumes practically 0% linoleic acid and γ-gamma linolenic acid; this represents the ideal PUFA‐depletion, in term of the most dangerous one: arachidonic acid

Is a 0% linoleic acid diet even possible?

 

[Travis]

Is a 0% linoleic acid diet even possible?

Probably not practically, but I didn't really mean exactly zero percent; I should have said 'trace' or 'residual amounts.' The mead acid is considered a marker for 'essential fatty acid deficiency' and is only found when consuming very little linoleic and γ-gamma linolenic acids. But as far as I can tell, this form of fatty acid 'deficiency' is a misnomer. The 3-series prostaglandins can be formed from eicosapentaenoic acid have far less activity, like ¹⁄₄ that of the 2-series prostaglandins. Both the 1-series and 2-series prostaglandins are derived from ω−6 fatty acids.

'Exposure of A549 cells to 1‧μM prostaglandin E₃ inhibited cell proliferation by 37.1%.' ―Yang​

But α-linolenic acid does appear to be necessary. This is ubiquitous and is found in avocados, all leaves, essentially all seeds, grass-fed milk, and an in animals. If this fatty acid weren't so common we'd all nave nerve and brain disorders.

Yang, Peiying. "Formation and antiproliferative effect of prostaglandin E₃ from eicosapentaenoic acid in human lung cancer cells." Journal of lipid research (2004)​