Circadian T3 Method - why taking thyroid hormone at the proper time is important

[yerrag]

I just feel that it stops the stress reaction if carbs aren't able to do it, so it's most likely cortisol and adrenaline-related. I should add that I haven't had a stress reaction in a long time though, but when I did, aspirin worked great. But also, don't take it without carbs.
I use TyroMix because I don't have Tyronene, but if I did, I would probably have experimented between the two.

Thanks. I should try aspirin before bed together with the milk and maple syrup. But it's for reducing inflammation, which I never thought of until you mentioned it. It may be that I urinate too frequently because of inflammation in my kidneys, and that may be why I produce a lot of urine.

I started using Tyromix before Tyronene and I was surprised it made me sleepy during the day. @ecstatichamster told me it was probably because I already had enough T4, and the addition of T4 in Tyromix would turn into reverse T3. He told me to try Tyronene, and it worked. I got a little boost of energy having T3 to aid my sugar metabolism.

 

[Kozak]

Well, I would take a drop of Tyronene after a meal and it would get me from falling into a low energy state. It tells me I just need a little to keep energy production going after a meal. The peak and lows mean less than having the T3 available when it's needed. You may have a higher peak but does that assure you there's enough when it's needed?

Do you think it's a very one dimensional approach and you might be overlooking the multitude of other hormones and chemicals involved in digestion?

 

[Kozak]

I've been experimenting with some TyroMix before bed. Just 2 drops. It speeds up sleep onset and deepens my sleep quite noticeably. I haven't had a stress reaction from it once and that's most likely because I take it with 500ml of milk and 2 tbsp maple syrup and 2 kiwi before bed.

For those that get a stress reaction in the middle of the night, try 1-2 cups milk with 1-2 tbsp honey/maple syrup with 500mg aspirin. It stops the stress response right in its tracks.

I'm not sure why you think it's a stress reaction. It's a normal reaction. T3 stimulates adrenals to produce cortisol (which wakes us up in the morning). Hence take T3 too early - you get cortisol peak too early.
We need to distinguish between T3 use for HRT (dose is significant) vs T3 use to help metabolism (dose is low).

 

[Hans]

I'm not sure why you think it's a stress reaction. It's a normal reaction. T3 stimulates adrenals to produce cortisol (which wakes us up in the morning). Hence take T3 too early - you get cortisol peak too early.
We need to distinguish between T3 use for HRT (dose is significant) vs T3 use to help metabolism (dose is low).

When I was recovering metabolically I used to get a stress reaction sometimes before bed and during the night. It was heat flushes, frustration and anger. As far as I know that's not the way you should wake up. When I took aspirin and carbs, it would stop or not even happen. And I've not even once had that effect from thyroid.

So when people take thyroid before bed, they might also get this reaction during the night (to a lesser extent) which also goes away when they consume carbs.
Thyroid speeds up glucose oxidation which could deplete glycogen and cause a stress reaction. Some people just feel alert (without an obvious stress reaction) and they start to feel calm again and are able to go back to sleep if they take something that lowers cortisol.
As far as I know, things that lower cortisol to baseline shouldn't make you want to go back to sleep when you're supposed to wake up in the morning.

I never talked about large doses. People only wake up after about 3-4 hours after taking too much thyroid or when they take it with too little carbs, not right away due to excess cortisol. The cortisol only becomes too elevated when glycogen starts to drop too low.

 

[ecstatichamster]

i never got anything out of this idea of waking up before you normally do and taking T3 on an empty stomach. I just got a bad headache.

 

[yerrag]

Do you think it's a very one dimensional approach and you might be overlooking the multitude of other hormones and chemicals involved in digestion?

Name them and I'll listen.

Let's consider an analogy. When I cook a dish, it tastes good when you have the right blend of ingredients, including spices and oils. Then you have to cook the food in the right sequence. Some ingredients have to be cooked long, some lose the flavor when cooked too long. When an assistant cooks that dish and the chef tastes it, he senses that it lacks some tartness in it. So he adds a dash of amchoor, which is green mango powder, and voila! it now tastes perfect.

That's the same thing with me just adding T3. I understand the complexity, but the simple act I did of just using T3 shows exactly how well I understand the complexity of it.

 

[Kozak]

When I was recovering metabolically I used to get a stress reaction sometimes before bed and during the night. It was heat flushes, frustration and anger. As far as I know that's not the way you should wake up. When I took aspirin and carbs, it would stop or not even happen. And I've not even once had that effect from thyroid.

So when people take thyroid before bed, they might also get this reaction during the night (to a lesser extent) which also goes away when they consume carbs.
Thyroid speeds up glucose oxidation which could deplete glycogen and cause a stress reaction. Some people just feel alert (without an obvious stress reaction) and they start to feel calm again and are able to go back to sleep if they take something that lowers cortisol.
As far as I know, things that lower cortisol to baseline shouldn't make you want to go back to sleep when you're supposed to wake up in the morning.

I never talked about large doses. People only wake up after about 3-4 hours after taking too much thyroid or when they take it with too little carbs, not right away due to excess cortisol. The cortisol only becomes too elevated when glycogen starts to drop too low.

Diurnal Cortisol Curves - ZRT Laboratory

We function according to circadian rhythms. Looking at the chart above I don't understand what would you call a "baseline cortisol". Same applies for melatonin, but it peaks at different time point.

Hans I've seen some great info from you, but on this one I think you need to do a bit more research. No offense.
1/4 of what I take now at 2am would wake me up at 4am if I take it before bed. I would not be angry or frustrated or hungry etc. I would feel sleepy and tired, but I could not fall asleep again regardless of what I did. Taking it early in the morning is OK, but taking it according to Circadian rhythm is the best!

I take T3 because my autoimmune hypothyroidism, so my dose is relatively high. If this is your case you should look into Paul Robinson Thyroid | Thyroid Books | Books on Hypothyroidism | Hypothyroidism Book | Thyroid Treatment Book | Recovering from Hypothyroidism books series | Hypothyroidism Recovery books and PROCEED WITH EXTREME CAUTION to find your dose. (no affiliation to Paul or his book).

Don't want to argue with anyone. Hope it help somebody.

 

[yerrag]

@Hans the first time I woke up to pee, the pee didn't have a lot of foam. That seemed to me to indicate the aspirin I took lessened the inflammation. But the effect of the aspirin didn't last long enough. My sleep interruption to pee did not lessen, and the subsequent urination were foamy. But it's a good thing to know. Now I need to find a substance I can take that has an extended effect on tamping down on inflammation, and I'm looking at oxalates. And if I could lower foaming and at the same time lower my urination frequency, then I would be able to point the blame of frequent urination on inflammation as well. Thanks for the idea on using aspirin though. It gave me the confirmation I need on why my urine is foamy.

 

[FitnessMike]

View attachment 21654
Diurnal Cortisol Curves - ZRT Laboratory

We function according to circadian rhythms. Looking at the chart above I don't understand what would you call a "baseline cortisol". Same applies for melatonin, but it peaks at different time point.

Hans I've seen some great info from you, but on this one I think you need to do a bit more research. No offense.
1/4 of what I take now at 2am would wake me up at 4am if I take it before bed. I would not be angry or frustrated or hungry etc. I would feel sleepy and tired, but I could not fall asleep again regardless of what I did. Taking it early in the morning is OK, but taking it according to Circadian rhythm is the best!

I take T3 because my autoimmune hypothyroidism, so my dose is relatively high. If this is your case you should look into Paul Robinson Thyroid | Thyroid Books | Books on Hypothyroidism | Hypothyroidism Book | Thyroid Treatment Book | Recovering from Hypothyroidism books series | Hypothyroidism Recovery books and PROCEED WITH EXTREME CAUTION to find your dose. (no affiliation to Paul or his book).

Don't want to argue with anyone. Hope it help somebody.

Czesc!

Have you seen good improvement from Ct3M? whenever i tried taking tyromix roundabout 3 am (when i wake up anyways) it triggers cortisol surge and i won't fall back asleep.

 

[Hans]

We function according to circadian rhythms. Looking at the chart above I don't understand what would you call a "baseline cortisol". Same applies for melatonin, but it peaks at different time point.

With cortisol baseline, I am referring to the normal levels according to the circadian rhythm. For example, it's supposed to be low in the evening and when it's not, it's above the evening baseline. That's what I was talking about. Not that cortisol levels during the day are the same if that was what you were thinking.

Hans I've seen some great info from you, but on this one I think you need to do a bit more research. No offense.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying as you're also not pointing out where I'm wrong. I've worked with a lot of clients (and still do) for the past few years who have struggled with hypothyroid issues, so saying that you think I need to do more research on the matter is a rather ignorant assumption as research and experimentation is what I do in order to help people (and what has helped me).

1/4 of what I take now at 2am would wake me up at 4am if I take it before bed. I would not be angry or frustrated or hungry etc. I would feel sleepy and tired, but I could not fall asleep again regardless of what I did. Taking it early in the morning is OK, but taking it according to Circadian rhythm is the best!

I never said to take thyroid when waking up in the middle of the night. I only talked from personal experience, of using thyroid right before bed, and also the experience from others that I work with. I've never taken T3 during the middle of the night and probably never will as carbs and aspirin work great for me if I ever do awaken from a stress response (which as I said, doesn't happen anymore). If I awaken without a stress response, I usually have no issue falling back asleep again.
I also never said that it's best to take thyroid in the morning, I said that taking it before bed (in small doses) makes more sense and that's why I do it.

 

[rr1]

Quote from Ray Peat: "I always take my cynoplus at night, to go to sleep faster; it has an anti-inflammatory effect."

 

[Dave Clark]

Are we talking about oral dosing, not topical? Wondering if there is a difference in how it would work through out the night if used topically. Am I to assume that most people here agree that their thyroid extracts should only be taken at night, or at night additionally to the morning dose? Also, a bit confused that if taking T3 casues a stress response, vis a vis cortisol, how then could it be relaxing and help with sleep? A lot of contrasting info on thyroid, but maybe I just don't yet understand all the details. Didn't Peat use T3, yet if T3 only has a half life of a few hours, why use just T3 if it is going to wake you up, or not last?

 

[Hans]

Are we talking about oral dosing, not topical? Wondering if there is a difference in how it would work through out the night if used topically. Am I to assume that most people here agree that their thyroid extracts should only be taken at night, or at night additionally to the morning dose? Also, a bit confused that if taking T3 casues a stress response, vis a vis cortisol, how then could it be relaxing and help with sleep? A lot of contrasting info on thyroid, but maybe I just don't yet understand all the details. Didn't Peat use T3, yet if T3 only has a half life of a few hours, why use just T3 if it is going to wake you up, or not last?

Your muscles can only properly relax when it's properly energized. It's the same with your brain. Thyroid helps to increase brain energy, which allows it to calm down and relax, which helps your fall asleep. Additionally, thyroid increases core temps, which improves deep sleep. Low core temps are related to poor non-deep sleep.
So a little thyroid, your specific sweet spot, can help you fall asleep. But if you take too much, it can make you feel too hot and can prevent sleep. In this regard, carbs won't help because it's not a stress response. But if a small dose is burning up your carbs during the night, then you might get a stress response during the night which can be remedied with carbs.

 

[Dave Clark]

Your muscles can only properly relax when it's properly energized. It's the same with your brain. Thyroid helps to increase brain energy, which allows it to calm down and relax, which helps your fall asleep. Additionally, thyroid increases core temps, which improves deep sleep. Low core temps are related to poor non-deep sleep.
So a little thyroid, your specific sweet spot, can help you fall asleep. But if you take too much, it can make you feel too hot and can prevent sleep. In this regard, carbs won't help because it's not a stress response. But if a small dose is burning up your carbs during the night, then you might get a stress response during the night which can be remedied with carbs.

Thank you, that helps with my understanding. Do you have any opinion on topical verses oral? I believe oral is what I hear the most use. I believe it is said that topical may need a larger dose than oral, and that it is systemically metabolized differently. I hear that with using progesterone for sleep as well, where rubbing into the gums is preferred over oral or topical.
I asked IdeaLabs, and they recommended Tyromix/max over the Tyronene, due to the short half life of T3.

 

[Hans]

Thank you, that helps with my understanding. Do you have any opinion on topical verses oral? I believe oral is what I hear the most use. I believe it is said that topical may need a larger dose than oral, and that it is systemically metabolized differently. I hear that with using progesterone for sleep as well, where rubbing into the gums is preferred over oral or topical.
I asked IdeaLabs, and they recommended Tyromix/max over the Tyronene, due to the short half life of T3.

I'm not sure how well thyroid hormones are absorbed topically so it's probably something you have to experiment with for yourself. I have only tried topical tyromix on my scrotum, but it didn't affect (improve) my sleep, whereas sublingual did.

 

[Kozak]

Czesc!

Have you seen good improvement from Ct3M? whenever i tried taking tyromix roundabout 3 am (when i wake up anyways) it triggers cortisol surge and i won't fall back asleep.

Вітаю!

I'm not sure what exactly tyromix is. Looks to me like T3/T4 combo. For me T4 does not work. I tried to add it a few times at different times - not working for me. This is exactly what Paul talks in his book. I take T3 only and I started with a lower dose and slowly moved it from 6am to 2am in 1/2hour decrement. Than I slowly increased the dose. You should not feel uncomfortable at all if you have the right dose/timing.

Cheers

 

[Kozak]

Quote from Ray Peat: "I always take my cynoplus at night, to go to sleep faster; it has an anti-inflammatory effect."

Cynoplus is T4! The discussion here is T3!

 

[Elize]

Is Cynoplus not T3 and T4?

 

[Kozak]

Are we talking about oral dosing, not topical? Wondering if there is a difference in how it would work through out the night if used topically. Am I to assume that most people here agree that their thyroid extracts should only be taken at night, or at night additionally to the morning dose? Also, a bit confused that if taking T3 casues a stress response, vis a vis cortisol, how then could it be relaxing and help with sleep? A lot of contrasting info on thyroid, but maybe I just don't yet understand all the details. Didn't Peat use T3, yet if T3 only has a half life of a few hours, why use just T3 if it is going to wake you up, or not last?

Good questions. Paul explained it well in his book. Just don't confuse T4 and T3!
There is a lag of about 2-3 hours for T3 to peak in your blood after oral consumption. So you want to have it peaked at the right time (as your normal T3 would) so you have good amount for adrenals to produce cortisol (peaks ~2-3hours after T3 peak). If you take it say 10pm your T3 peaks at ~1am and your cortisol peaks at ~4am. If your adrenals don't have any serious issues they will respond to T3 peak and you'll be up at ~5am. Not what you want.

You have to start SLOW AND LOW dose!!!

What I'm saying here is relevant to people with hypothyroidism ONLY! If you don't have thyroid issues it will try to compensate for your interventions, but you might end up overtaxing it.

 

[Kozak]

Is Cynoplus not T3 and T4?

I just checked it. It says Levothyroxine sodium. I'm not 100% sure