Chronic/Megadose of Artificial Supplements in RP's Own Words

amd

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Keep seeing posts suggesting high doses of artificial supplements.

We have been at this for a long time in the forums and it needs to be restated, in RP's words.

https://youtu.be/c0gr02HZ4XQ?t=1118

Running the oxidative process through the mitochondria very fast happens to be an anti-oxidative process in terms of avoiding toxic free radicals.

And so, the faster you burn oxygen usefully, oxidizing sugars, the less you have to worry about taking care of the free radical toxic products that really develop when you slow down the respiratory process of burning fats, and especially polyunsaturated fats.

Vitamin E and vitamin C, and uric acid, which is produced in our body, is a major antioxidant.

But the marketing of the idea of antioxidants has created a big confusion in the area.

The antioxidants in our body have to fit together with uric acid, which is naturally there, and the enzymes, which naturally break down free radicals.

And if you put things in that don't fit, an apparent antioxidant in a test tube can become a pro-oxidant in the body.

Things have to fit together so that vitamin A and vitamin E lock together, and vitamin E and vitamin C lock together, uric acid and vitamin C lock together.

And the glucose and other sugars have to be streaming through the systems of enzymes turning into carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide has to be flowing out of the cell properly.

The whole antioxidant system is really one piece, and if you try to stuff in any super antioxidants like they're selling as health products, you're likely to create more oxidation than you had without it.

A recent publication saw that cataracts are twice as common in men over the age of 65 who took big supplements of vitamin E and vitamin C. Almost doubled their rate of cataracts.
 
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Perry Staltic

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The whole antioxidant system is really one piece, and if you try to stuff in any super antioxidants like they're selling as health products, you're likely to create more oxidation than you had without it.

The word likely means it's his opinion.
 
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amd

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It can also mean that not all bodies respond equally to the same stimuli, or that it's not the same stimuli for everyone.

The word likely means it's his opinion.
 
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Dave_Fit

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Well said. I have always been suspicious of supraphysiologic doses of nutrients for health. Now if you want to use them like a drug for an extreme condition, to jump start a failing system/pathway, there may be some validity but this is generally reductive thinking. It has certainly been shown to work in certain cases and if that is the goal then great. It never ceases to amaze me how intertwined all the parts of our biology are and how subtle support can bring about profound changes. Just looking at all the nutrients, enzymes, and cofactors needed for glycolysis, the Krebs cycle, and the electron transport chain is fascinating.
 

Tom K

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One reason for the increased usage of hydrogen supplementation is the capacity to become both pro and antioxidant physiologically. Important signaling molecules can be free radicals, for which the indiscriminate use of antioxidants can undermine. Preliminary evidence reveals the hydrogen does not interfere with these signaling molecules. However, the degree to which we are bombarded with pro-oxidation insults cannot be quantified (including EMF-RF) and the simplicity of the Ames testing of one foreign chemical at a time does not begin to measure the negative synergistic effect that these acquired xenobiotic environmental disruption can present. I am not anti or pro Peat. I am pro 'Keep an open mind.' Now retired, but having been in the complementary/alternative health intervention camp since 1978, having treated more than 20,000 patients, the one rule I rely upon is "There is no cookbook .' Things we fervently believed 30 years ago have been proven false, while issues we knew were false have been proven fact. Interventions that should have worked fail, while interventions that should not have worked succeeded. Black patients sometimes respond differently than whites, men can respond differently than women, and sometimes things just make no sense. In my view, the words of Fico above, "It can also mean that not all bodies respond equally to the same stimuli, or that it's not the same stimuli for everyone,' could not be more true.
 

yerrag

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and sometimes things just make no sense.
I like everything you said except for this. Not that it has to make sense, but that a lot of times things don't make sense because the establishment doesn't want it to make sense. A big stumbling block is not having an open mind, in that we defer to experts, assuming all their pronouncements as gospel, and we don't make an effort to disprove them because we are not equipped with degrees and high tech gizmos.

And while I agree that there are variations, it's not so much a delineation between races and sexes as knowing the context. When you treat this way, you are treating an individual, not a species. Unfortunately, medical training is geared towards treating a species, and it fails miserably because it doesn't account for individual variations.

And I see in Ray Peat's ideas the OP enunciated to be very helpful in making sense of something conventional medicine would call a paradox. The body is a tightly woven machinery that operates in balance. It produces its own antioxidants and pro-oxidants in the right amount and at the instant when it's needed. Defer to the body's intelligence and wisdom than to humbug experts that want to tinker with. Leave the body to handle the complexity and just supply it with the raw materials adequately. That makes everything more simple.
 

Tom K

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Dear Yerrag, First, I must compliment you on the koi photo. Having two ponds, both with koi, some of which are 20 years old, I appreciate the sentiments. I believe there is a bit of novereach in your statement, " a lot of times things don't make sense because the establishment doesn't want it to make sense." While I agree that there are commercial interests that override the patient benefit, such statements cannot be made with recognizing that the majority of medical practitioners are not players, the majority are pawns that mean well. Physicians. educated in a system that was overtaken by the pharmaceutical model in the Reagan years, taught the vertical model of medicine (one disease- one cure) is partially to blame. The CEUs required by most states are sponsored by big pharma. The state medical boards are overrun with conflicts of interests. Research grant money comes from pharma. The largest lobbying group that pays off elected officials is pharma. If that series of events is what you are referring to, I agree. However, what I referred to as things that do not make sense has to do with interventions that have worked, that suddenly did not work, and vice versa. Where you and I are in unison, and the intention of my statements, is the idea of maintaining an open mind. Be well, Tom K.
 
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amd

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That's one of the issues, you can't take things you read in forums at face value.

From different biochemistry for each person to simply copying other people's mistakes, which some say is a lousy way to learn.

In any case, the message is for those that may be hitting a brick wall.

I find it harder, but more productive, to identify culprits in your diet, rather than just taking supplements to fix the original problem.

Obviously, the quality and accessibility of food is one of the reasons why we are where we are.
 
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yerrag

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That's one of the issues, you can't take things you read in forums at face value.

From different biochemistry for each person to simply copying other people's mistakes, which some say is a lousy way to learn.

In any case, the message is for those that may be hitting a brick wall.

I find it harder, but more productive, to identify culprits in your diet, rather than just taking supplements to fix the original problem.

Obviously, the quality and accessibility of food is one of the reasons why we are where we are.
I'll add to that chronic misinformation from propaganda thru miseducation and media.

As even in countries blessed with milk and honey, and the bounties of nature, one can end up malnourished because myths abound that keep us in a state of disease.

Worshipping the guy in lab coats in my opinion is the biggest impediment to health.
 

yerrag

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Dear Yerrag, First, I must compliment you on the koi photo. Having two ponds, both with koi, some of which are 20 years old, I appreciate the sentiments. I believe there is a bit of novereach in your statement, " a lot of times things don't make sense because the establishment doesn't want it to make sense." While I agree that there are commercial interests that override the patient benefit, such statements cannot be made with recognizing that the majority of medical practitioners are not players, the majority are pawns that mean well. Physicians. educated in a system that was overtaken by the pharmaceutical model in the Reagan years, taught the vertical model of medicine (one disease- one cure) is partially to blame. The CEUs required by most states are sponsored by big pharma. The state medical boards are overrun with conflicts of interests. Research grant money comes from pharma. The largest lobbying group that pays off elected officials is pharma. If that series of events is what you are referring to, I agree. However, what I referred to as things that do not make sense has to do with interventions that have worked, that suddenly did not work, and vice versa. Where you and I are in unison, and the intention of my statements, is the idea of maintaining an open mind. Be well, Tom K.
Thanks Tom. It's nice to finally meet a fellow koi lover. That koi was a beauty, and for half a dollar as a tosai, it grew into a curvaceous 75cm yamabuki and won in a koi show. But alas, it died soon after the show. I attribute that to my learning curve and also to being lazy, pushing myself to see how long I could get away with not cleaning my pond. Thankfully, I have refined the art to accommodate my laziness, and add experience to that, I now enjoy ko in keeping and find it to be a good hobby to occupy myself with during COVID. I'm sure you are twice as much fun with two ko ponds.

We share the same sentiments regarding the medical establishment, and I just as you feel bad for those in the field trapped between morality and earning their keep.

I am curious though. Do you mind giving examples of treatments that in the past have worked and don't anymore, and those that have failed and now work?
 
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Tom K

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To personalize my response, I will give an example of a procedure that I developed, which will also illustrate how our biases can cloud our judgement. One of my clinical rotations was with a professional soccer team. As you can imagine, lower extremity injuries are frequent. On one occasion, based on the history from the patient, it was an obvious meniscus tear. Coaches at all levels, but especially at the pro level, have as their first interest winning. The players welfare is a distant second. Refusing to recommend injections to mask the injury, in desperation I developed a traction technique that was applied to the tibia as the patient's knee was passively flexed and then extended. This maneuver would reposition the meniscus to return to the tibial plateau. When word got out that I could 'fix' a torn cartilage, the flood gates opened and referrals came from everywhere. Adding to this dilemma, it worked well on approximately the first 20-30 patients. This was my baby, so everytime a meniscus patient was seen, I knew I had the keys to the kingdom. When it worked, it was incredible. Problem was, it did not always work, and it took about 100 patients to realize that fact. From that experience, early on in my career, the idea of cookbook medicine was thrown into the dumpster.

I admire your motivation to care for your pond. I use a service that comes out weekly. Be well.
 

yerrag

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To personalize my response, I will give an example of a procedure that I developed, which will also illustrate how our biases can cloud our judgement. One of my clinical rotations was with a professional soccer team. As you can imagine, lower extremity injuries are frequent. On one occasion, based on the history from the patient, it was an obvious meniscus tear. Coaches at all levels, but especially at the pro level, have as their first interest winning. The players welfare is a distant second. Refusing to recommend injections to mask the injury, in desperation I developed a traction technique that was applied to the tibia as the patient's knee was passively flexed and then extended. This maneuver would reposition the meniscus to return to the tibial plateau. When word got out that I could 'fix' a torn cartilage, the flood gates opened and referrals came from everywhere. Adding to this dilemma, it worked well on approximately the first 20-30 patients. This was my baby, so everytime a meniscus patient was seen, I knew I had the keys to the kingdom. When it worked, it was incredible. Problem was, it did not always work, and it took about 100 patients to realize that fact. From that experience, early on in my career, the idea of cookbook medicine was thrown into the dumpster.

I admire your motivation to care for your pond. I use a service that comes out weekly. Be well.
Thanks for sharing.

Since you have an extensive experience with fixing injuries with soccer, I wonder if you could explain my complete healing from an ankle injury I sustained.

In jumping very high to catch a ball, I overextended myself and landed on the balls on my left foot as the leg was swinging. It was a mess and when a cast was being put on, I was told my ankle was not ever going to be back to the way it was.

Since my livelihood did. not depend on regaining the full function of my left ankle, my attitude was so be it. Days turned i to month and into years and into decades, and my ankle was back in tip top shape.

I think that the sports therapist/doctor wasn't lying to me, but he was just doing a good job of setting expectations, but more so, he has seen many cases similar to mine that never healed the way mine did.

Wouldn't this variance be attributable to individual constitutions that have qualities that can't be quantified?

I know I have very strong ankles from growing up climbing stairs and leaping over 5-6 steps at a time. I got many painful shim hits at the start, but leaping became second nature to me. I guess I have also developed a very robust ankle support system internally and that would account for my successful healing from injury.
 

Tom K

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"Wouldn't this variance be attributable to individual constitutions that have qualities that can't be quantified?"
Yes. Example, I have dealt with ruptured Achilles tendons that required surgical repair. Each case is different, with some more severe than others. However, I have seen patients that fully recover and return to activity, and others that develop a permanent limp (shortened stance phase). Everything from posture, to recovery ability, to dopler of lower extremity blood flow, to willingness to attend PT can affect the outcome.
 

yerrag

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Thanks Tom.

I'm glad you have a reliable hand to take care of. cleaning your pond filter.
 

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