Chronic Heart Murmur, Orthostatic Hypotension, Visible Veins

[Ben]

I had all 3 issues for as long as I remember. I had documented orthostatic hypotension and heart murmur 7 years ago, also had veins back then.

Heart murmur can be from anxiety, which I have, and my blood pressure and pulse is elevated in the presence of people due to social anxiety. But blood pooling in limbs and orthostatic hypotension are unrelated to that, but can be related to heart murmur.

These are probably markers of poor circulation. I'm taking progest-E and vitamin E dermally, but none have helped the slightest bit despite a good theory. I theorized that because estrogn causes blood to pool in veins, and progesterone prevents this effect, that the combination I'm taking would effectively treat my circulatory problem.

When I stand up or stretch, my vision blacks out for a few seconds and I turn really "stupid" for a few seconds. Basically blood leaves the brain along with oxygen and other nutrients for several moments in a day. This is worrisome because it could cause accumulated damage from hypoxia, for example. Baseline circulation to the brain may also be impaired since blood pools in my limbs, and the head is the hardest place to draw blood to.

Not sure what I should do. I'm getting an ultrasound done for the heart murmur, but I don't know how they will treat it, if they can. Vitamin E and progest-E are a couple of effective, healthy substances, but they aren't working for this.

 

[j.]

Re: Chronic heart murmur, orthostatic hypotension, visible v

You might have mentioned it, but how long have you been avoiding all significant sources of polyunsaturated fats?

 

[mas]

Re: Chronic heart murmur, orthostatic hypotension, visible v

Hi Ben
Ben wrote:
Heart murmur can be from anxiety, which I have, and my blood pressure and pulse is elevated in the presence of people due to social anxiety. But blood pooling in limbs and orthostatic hypotension are unrelated to that, but can be related to heart murmur.

These are probably markers of poor circulation. I'm taking progest-E and vitamin E dermally, but none have helped the slightest bit despite a good theory. I theorized that because estrogn causes blood to pool in veins, and progesterone prevents this effect, that the combination I'm taking would effectively treat my circulatory problem

Your issues are very similar to mine.

My Circulation Problems: I alternated between the two
POTS (Postural orthastatic tachycardia) Fast heart, arrythmias, sweaty, hot, wired, shaky
Hypotension-low blood pressure and slow heart (bradycardia), total exhaustion, comatose
Blood pooling in legs and abdomen

Heart Diastolic Dysfunction -heart doesn't fill well because blood pooling by fluid leaking out of the vessels due to estrogen, in legs & abdomen cause less blood in your heart . When you don't get blood pumping to the brain in enough quantity, you feel faint . RP has serval articles discussing this. You are absolutely right about the hypoxia and medical research has proved that this happens.

My suggestions for medical tests;

Echocardiogram specifically to look for Diastolic Heart Dysfunction (inquire with the cardiologist, make sure that if he is testing for BOTH systolic pumping dysfunction that he also tests for diastolic filling dysfunction, )

Doppler Ultrasound for legs and abdomen-this would perhaps locate any blood flow problems- I would inquire with your doctor if you can get that also


I am taking:
Pregnenolone- 50 mg daily

Progest E-started 3 drops x5 daily and now take when needed (I am female- I don't know what RP says about dosage for males)

Cyproheptadine (Periactin) Just started a little over a week ago. up to 2 mg, and will go higher. This is an antihistamine and is excellent for lowering seratonin (which may be a problem as it goes hand in hand with estrogen). It helps my allergies and gut problems-lots of mast cells in the gut.
US requires doctors prescription. Just tell the doctor it worked great for your Dad's allergies and you want some too!

Aspirin- 2 325mg daily

NDT- have not started yet, but my heart problems are getting progressively better and I will start when I feel heart is ok

Diet with RP principles has been working for me well, considering how sick I was- it has been slow
__________________________________________

Ben, are you dealing with your GP for this, or have you already got the tests lined up?

I think the term "social anxiety" is a made up construct pile of crap by the Psychiatric drug pushers. You don't have this

You have a physiological problem that needs to be taken care of. I know that if I can improve (and I have a ways to go), You will , without a doubt.

Please keep us posted.

Megin

 

[narouz]

Re: Chronic heart murmur, orthostatic hypotension, visible v

Cyproheptadine (Periactin) Just started a little over a week ago. up to 2 mg, and will go higher. This is an antihistamine and is excellent for lowering seratonin (which may be a problem as it goes hand in hand with estrogen). It helps my allergies and gut problems-lots of mast cells in the gut.

A bit off track, sorry, but I wanted to ask how you're doing with the Cypro.
When do you take it, and how sedating is it for you?

 

[mas]

Re: Chronic heart murmur, orthostatic hypotension, visible v

Hi Narouz,

At first it was really sedating, similar to Benedryl. I started with 1/8, and I worked it up in increments of 1/8. By the fourth day the sedating effects were wearing off. I take 1/2 tablet several times daily.

I think I will use it for another week the lay off for a while. I am trying to find a system for myself with the Pregenolone, Progesterone,& Cypro.

The next hurdle will be the NDT.

Do you personally feel Cypro has worked well for you?

 

[narouz]

Re: Chronic heart murmur, orthostatic hypotension, visible v

Hi Narouz,

At first it was really sedating, similar to Benedryl. I started with 1/8, and I worked it up in increments of 1/8. By the fourth day the sedating effects were wearing off. I take 1/2 tablet several times daily.

I think I will use it for another week the lay off for a while. I am trying to find a system for myself with the Pregenolone, Progesterone,& Cypro.

The next hurdle will be the NDT.

Do you personally feel Cypro has worked well for you?

I couldn't really tell.
I elevated my dosage too quickly, I think.
Got to about 4mg on the third day, before sleep.
Slept 12 hours and felt pretty spaced the next day.
I'll have to redo the experiment more carefully.
Others have agreed with you about the sedation wearing off after a while.
Thanks!

 

[aguilaroja]

Re: Chronic heart murmur, orthostatic hypotension, visible v

I had all 3 issues for as long as I remember....orthostatic hypotension and heart murmur 7 years ago, also had veins back then.

Heart murmur can be from anxiety...blood pooling in limbs and orthostatic hypotension are unrelated to that, but can be related to heart murmur.... I'm getting an ultrasound done for the heart murmur...

I'll take mysterious metabolic items for $800, Alex Trebek...

The chordae tendineae, the fibers that attached to the heart valves, have a texture that can become lax with low thyroid function. Low thyroid function can result in different tissue changes, including laxity, swelling, bogginess, mucin accumulation. Mitral valve prolapse is one frequent valve issue with low thyroid function. Dr. Peat has written on these issues. I know several people whose non-trivial murmurs resolved when thyroid function was boosted. Normalizing the tension on these valve tendons through thyroid function is probably a major factor.

Low thyroid function also impairs retaining minerals, especially sodium and magnesium, even when intake may be adequate. The usual medical blood tests show what is in the serum but that does not always correspond to what the mineral concentrations are inside the cells.

When sodium is not well retained, hypothyroid people can have various low blood pressure changes, including dizziness and less steady blood pressure during body position changes. I and a number of friends had all these issues, which resolved with Peat-ing.

Veins have smooth muscle. Much like some of the postural muscles in the body (the calves, for instance), they are particularly dependent on consistent metabolic energy. Somewhat similar to muscle cramps at rest, better metabolic fuel delivery via better thyroid function helps. Adequate sodium and magnesium intake helps leg muscle cramping, but I am less sure how primary this is for veins.

For a few local bulging veins, I have seen topical Progest-E work well. Widespread distended veins seem to reflect a more general low metabolism, again improved with boosting thyroid function and other factors. I wonder if Haidut's pregnenolone oil might work for this issue. I have not used homemade topical pregnenolone for this difficulty. Blood pressure and adequate sodium can also factor in to how the blood pools in veins.

Note that there is much individual variation in appearance of veins at the surface, depending on many things including build (slim vs. stocky), age, and muscle tone & bulk. YMMV. Better function can change readily-vein appearance may have a different rate of response, depending on circumstance.

 

[HDD]

Re: Chronic heart murmur, orthostatic hypotension, visible v

The first doctor I saw for my symptoms back in 1987 gave me a diagnosis of mitral valve prolapse. A few years later, after I was given the dx of ms, I had an echocardiogram to see if the mitral valve prolapse was an issue. My heart was fine at that time. I have also been told in the past I had a heart murmur. Too bad the first dr. I saw didn't use symptoms for hypothyroidism diagnosis. He checked my thyroid from my blood. But, once I saw the neurologist,it was curtains for me. Ha! Fortunately, I didn't succumb to their treatments, and, many thanks to Ray Peat, I now know what is really wrong and how to treat it.

 

[Ben]

Re: Chronic heart murmur, orthostatic hypotension, visible v

You might have mentioned it, but how long have you been avoiding all significant sources of polyunsaturated fats?

I've strictly avoided high PUFA sources and ate RP-style for about 3 and a half years.

Echocardiogram specifically to look for Diastolic Heart Dysfunction (inquire with the cardiologist, make sure that if he is testing for BOTH systolic pumping dysfunction that he also tests for diastolic filling dysfunction, )

Doppler Ultrasound for legs and abdomen-this would perhaps locate any blood flow problems- I would inquire with your doctor if you can get that also

Does this require a new test to be ordered, or is do I simply tell the cardiologist to test both while he's giving me the ultrasound?

When it comes to ultrasounding the legs and abdomen, how would I convince my GP to order this test for me? I've never seen anyone with thicker veins than mine on my hands and feet, but I don't know if they would consider that a medical issue. The veins on my abdomen and legs are hidden.

I am taking:
Pregnenolone- 50 mg daily

Progest E-started 3 drops x5 daily and now take when needed (I am female- I don't know what RP says about dosage for males)

Cyproheptadine (Periactin) Just started a little over a week ago. up to 2 mg, and will go higher. This is an antihistamine and is excellent for lowering seratonin (which may be a problem as it goes hand in hand with estrogen). It helps my allergies and gut problems-lots of mast cells in the gut.
US requires doctors prescription. Just tell the doctor it worked great for your Dad's allergies and you want some too!

Aspirin- 2 325mg daily

NDT- have not started yet, but my heart problems are getting progressively better and I will start when I feel heart is ok

Diet with RP principles has been working for me well, considering how sick I was- it has been slow

I've been taking T3 throughout the day for months. I doubt I have hypothyroidism because I feel warmer than everyone else now.

I've been applying an indiscriminate amount of progest-E on my skin daily in addition to vitamin E and taking aspirin. When it comes to allergies, I don't have any so I don't know how one could fake physical symptoms in order to get it prescribed.

Ben, are you dealing with your GP for this, or have you already got the tests lined up?

I think the term "social anxiety" is a made up construct pile of crap by the Psychiatric drug pushers. You don't have this

You have a physiological problem that needs to be taken care of. I know that if I can improve (and I have a ways to go), You will , without a doubt.

Please keep us posted.

Megin

The GP ordered an ultrasound to check why I'm getting heart murmurs. He mentioned mitral valve prolapse as a possibility, but said most of the time heart murmurs are nothing. I did mention the orthostatic hypotension, so now it can be a symptom that he can aim to improve instead of a "harmless" murmur.

It makes sense that impaired blood flow can cause anxiety due to low oxygen. When people hyperventilate, they panic because the Bohr effect constricts the blood vessels to the brain. It would be relieving if it was as simple as a physiological problem, I didn't believe it could be, but now I'm having doubts.

 

[Ben]

Re: Chronic heart murmur, orthostatic hypotension, visible v

I had all 3 issues for as long as I remember....orthostatic hypotension and heart murmur 7 years ago, also had veins back then.

Heart murmur can be from anxiety...blood pooling in limbs and orthostatic hypotension are unrelated to that, but can be related to heart murmur.... I'm getting an ultrasound done for the heart murmur...

I'll take mysterious metabolic items for $800, Alex Trebek...

The chordae tendineae, the fibers that attached to the heart valves, have a texture that can become lax with low thyroid function. Low thyroid function can result in different tissue changes, including laxity, swelling, bogginess, mucin accumulation. Mitral valve prolapse is one frequent valve issue with low thyroid function. Dr. Peat has written on these issues. I know several people whose non-trivial murmurs resolved when thyroid function was boosted. Normalizing the tension on these valve tendons through thyroid function is probably a major factor.

Low thyroid function also impairs retaining minerals, especially sodium and magnesium, even when intake may be adequate. The usual medical blood tests show what is in the serum but that does not always correspond to what the mineral concentrations are inside the cells.

When sodium is not well retained, hypothyroid people can have various low blood pressure changes, including dizziness and less steady blood pressure during body position changes. I and a number of friends had all these issues, which resolved with Peat-ing.

Veins have smooth muscle. Much like some of the postural muscles in the body (the calves, for instance), they are particularly dependent on consistent metabolic energy. Somewhat similar to muscle cramps at rest, better metabolic fuel delivery via better thyroid function helps. Adequate sodium and magnesium intake helps leg muscle cramping, but I am less sure how primary this is for veins.

For a few local bulging veins, I have seen topical Progest-E work well. Widespread distended veins seem to reflect a more general low metabolism, again improved with boosting thyroid function and other factors. I wonder if Haidut's pregnenolone oil might work for this issue. I have not used homemade topical pregnenolone for this difficulty. Blood pressure and adequate sodium can also factor in to how the blood pools in veins.

Note that there is much individual variation in appearance of veins at the surface, depending on many things including build (slim vs. stocky), age, and muscle tone & bulk. YMMV. Better function can change readily-vein appearance may have a different rate of response, depending on circumstance.

I've been taking progest-E dermally, but it hasn't improved anything. I'm getting plenty of sodium intake and using magnesium bath salts, but nothing is better with those either. And I've been Peating for 3.5 years. I feel helpless.

 

[HDD]

Re: Chronic heart murmur, orthostatic hypotension, visible v

Hi Ben,

Have you read this article?


http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/coron ... rone.shtml

After your post and aguilaroja's reply, I read the article above and it seems Progest-e and vitamin E should be helpful.

"The Shutes used vitamin E to treat the excessive blood clotting caused by estrogen, and vitamin E was considered to be an estrogen antagonist. Estrogen affected the liver’s production of clot-regulating proteins, and it also relaxed large veins, allowing blood pooling that slowed the blood sufficiently to give it time to form clots before returning to the lungs. Early in the century, unsaturated fats were found to inactivate the proteolytic enzymes that dissolve clots, and vitamin E was known, by the 1940s, to provide protection against the toxicity of the unsaturated fats. The toxic synergy of estrogen and unsaturated fats had already been recognized.

"This vein-dilating effect of estrogen has been seen to play a role in the development of varicose veins, in orthostatic hypotension, and in the formation of blood clots in the slow-moving blood in the large leg veins"


I was wondering why you are using Progest-e and vitamin E transdermally? Are you bag breathing?


"The effects of progesterone on the heart and blood vessels are paralleled by those of carbon dioxide: Increased carbon dioxide increases perfusion of the heart muscle, increases its stroke volume, and reduces peripheral resistance. The physical and chemical properties of carbon dioxide that I have written about previously include protective anti-excitatory and energy-sustaining functions that explain these effects."

"Rather than being “heart protective,” estrogen is highly heart-toxic, and it is this that makes its most important antagonist, progesterone, so important in protecting the heart and circulatory system."

 

[Ben]

Re: Chronic heart murmur, orthostatic hypotension, visible v

It took long for me to start breathing quickly when I breathed into a paper bag, wasn't sure if the paper bag had holes or something that prevented CO2 from building up. I tried removing most air from my lungs and flattened the paper bag beforehand, to theoretically build up CO2 more quickly, but it didn't help. I was told that its effects are 'invisible', so this is discouraging. Why would I do something if it doesn't make me feel better? I'm not even sure if breathing into a paper bag for a few minutes a day can alter how you breathe the rest of the day. That's hard to believe.

About the transdermal applications, RP said the skin is a barrier that can reduce the absorption of impurities of the supplement, compared to oral consumption. Another reason I do it that way is that my skin isn't doing too well. I have face, back, and chest acne, with some occurring in other areas. I also have stretch marks and rosacea.

I got the idea that vitamin E and progest-E might help my veins and orthostatic hypotension from that article. It was the thread "appearance of veins on the hands" under similar topics that I made the theory.

I wonder what doctors can prescribe if the tests do show problems with blood flow. Maybe I have to rely on supplements.

 

[RealNeat]

Re: Chronic heart murmur, orthostatic hypotension, visible v

It took long for me to start breathing quickly when I breathed into a paper bag, wasn't sure if the paper bag had holes or something that prevented CO2 from building up. I tried removing most air from my lungs and flattened the paper bag beforehand, to theoretically build up CO2 more quickly, but it didn't help. I was told that its effects are 'invisible', so this is discouraging. Why would I do something if it doesn't make me feel better? I'm not even sure if breathing into a paper bag for a few minutes a day can alter how you breathe the rest of the day. That's hard to believe.

About the transdermal applications, RP said the skin is a barrier that can reduce the absorption of impurities of the supplement, compared to oral consumption. Another reason I do it that way is that my skin isn't doing too well. I have face, back, and chest acne, with some occurring in other areas. I also have stretch marks and rosacea.

I got the idea that vitamin E and progest-E might help my veins and orthostatic hypotension from that article. It was the thread "appearance of veins on the hands" under similar topics that I made the theory.

I wonder what doctors can prescribe if the tests do show problems with blood flow. Maybe I have to rely on supplements.

Any updates on your condition?