Chronic health problem (Dehydration) - Faint hope somebody here might have some ideas

[Callmestar]

Other than the usual dehydration symptoms and fatigue, the one thing that I have noticed of late is some pain and pressure in what feels like the prostate area. Shooting pains now and then, and generally mild discomfort in that area when moving around. This is a new symptom I've noticed in the past couple of months.

 

[Callmestar]

Not sure where i'm going with all this. Have added the Thyroid, Vit K and Progest E. I know many here say they feel relaxed or drowsy from Progest e. I feel absolutely nothing, even with increasing the dose. Hopefully it's doing something long term but in regards to short term effects there's nothing.

Symptoms remain the same. Dehydrated. Dry. Can't concentrate urine.

Still awaiting Aldosterone / Renin blood results but very much doubt they are going to show anything significant.

I have no problems or obvious symptoms in terms of digestion but I think it's one of the few options I have left to explore in terms of testing so that may be next.

 

[LLight]

Symptoms remain the same. Dehydrated. Dry. Can't concentrate urine.

Give some time before deciding it has no value

I'm not sure how much time it would take if you had a big deficiency but it might take at least weeks.

 

[Callmestar]

Give some time before deciding it has no value

I'm not sure how much time it would take if you had a big deficiency but it might take at least weeks.

None of it does anything, ever. I'm pretty much finished at this point.

 

[Callmestar]

I've had a problem with swallowing, a restriction of movement of the throat cartilage when swallowing. When swallowing if feels as through the upward movement of the swallow is restricted / blocked. All I feel is pressure in the throat when swallowing.

Clutching at straws but maybe it is related to my lack of ability to concentrate urine based on vasopressin being suppressed by the pressure in my throat and problems swallowing:

"The close relationship between plasma osmolality and plasma vasopressin is lost during the act of drinking, which causes rapid suppression of vasopressin secretion, before changes in plasma osmolality occur (24; 77; Figure 2). The fall in plasma vasopressin concentrations is almost instantaneous and approximates closely to the plasma half‐life of the hormone (77), suggesting that the act of swallowing itself may switch off vasopressin secretion. It has been proposed that the mechanism which inhibits vasopressin secretion during swallowing is the activation of oropharyngeal stretch receptors which send inhibitory signals to the hypothalamus via an, as yet unidentified, neural pathway (66)."

 

[Peatness]

Hyperadrenergic Postural Tachycardia Syndrome in Mast Cell Activation Disorders​

Abstract​

Postural tachycardia syndrome (POTS) is a disabling condition that commonly affects otherwise normal young females. Because these patients can present with a flushing disorder, we hypothesized that mast cell activation (MCA) can contribute to its pathogenesis. Here we describe POTS patients with MCA (MCA+POTS), diagnosed by episodes of flushing and abnormal increases in urine methylhistamine, and compared them to POTS patients with episodic flushing but normal urine methylhistamine and to normal healthy age-matched female controls. MCA+POTS patients were characterized by episodes of flushing, shortness of breath, headache, lightheadedness, excessive diuresis, and gastrointestinal symptoms such as diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting. Triggering events include long-term standing, exercise, premenstrual cycle, meals, and sexual intercourse. In addition, patients were disabled by orthostatic intolerance and a characteristic hyperadrenergic response to posture, with orthostatic tachycardia (from 79±4 to 114±6 bpm), increased systolic blood pressure on standing (from 117±5 to 126±7 mm Hg versus no change in POTS controls), increased systolic blood pressure at the end of phase II of the Valsalva maneuver (157±12 versus 117±9 in normal controls and 119±7 mm Hg in POTS; P=0.048), and an exaggerated phase IV blood pressure overshoot (50±10 versus 17±3 mm Hg in normal controls; P<0.05). In conclusion, MCA should be considered in patients with POTS presenting with flushing. These patients often present with a typical hyperadrenergic response, but β-blockers should be used with great caution, if at all, and treatment directed against mast cell mediators may be required.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.HYP.0000158259.68614.40

If this is not relevent please ignore

 

[Callmestar]

Hyperadrenergic Postural Tachycardia Syndrome in Mast Cell Activation Disorders​

Abstract​

Postural tachycardia syndrome (POTS) is a disabling condition that commonly affects otherwise normal young females. Because these patients can present with a flushing disorder, we hypothesized that mast cell activation (MCA) can contribute to its pathogenesis. Here we describe POTS patients with MCA (MCA+POTS), diagnosed by episodes of flushing and abnormal increases in urine methylhistamine, and compared them to POTS patients with episodic flushing but normal urine methylhistamine and to normal healthy age-matched female controls. MCA+POTS patients were characterized by episodes of flushing, shortness of breath, headache, lightheadedness, excessive diuresis, and gastrointestinal symptoms such as diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting. Triggering events include long-term standing, exercise, premenstrual cycle, meals, and sexual intercourse. In addition, patients were disabled by orthostatic intolerance and a characteristic hyperadrenergic response to posture, with orthostatic tachycardia (from 79±4 to 114±6 bpm), increased systolic blood pressure on standing (from 117±5 to 126±7 mm Hg versus no change in POTS controls), increased systolic blood pressure at the end of phase II of the Valsalva maneuver (157±12 versus 117±9 in normal controls and 119±7 mm Hg in POTS; P=0.048), and an exaggerated phase IV blood pressure overshoot (50±10 versus 17±3 mm Hg in normal controls; P<0.05). In conclusion, MCA should be considered in patients with POTS presenting with flushing. These patients often present with a typical hyperadrenergic response, but β-blockers should be used with great caution, if at all, and treatment directed against mast cell mediators may be required.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.HYP.0000158259.68614.40

If this is not relevent please ignore

Thank you. There's definitely some POTS type symptoms that I experience. Possibly linked to the lack of ability to retain urine. It was one of the ideas behind trying Fludrocortisone, which I mention earlier in the thread as a way of increasing blood pressure/volume. Currently trying the more natural approach on the advice of those in this thread and also waiting on Aldosterone bloods to come back. If Aldosterone comes back low, as well as the POTS type symptoms, Fludrocortisone has to be worth a try for some relief as much as I don't want to take any medication.

 

[Callmestar]

Worst I've been in some time. Feel and look like death. Sleep isn't even a break from it now as I wake up with my mouth bone dry. I actually feel horribly unwell upon waking, not rested or refreshed at all.

I cannot believe there is no obvious cause to these symptoms that can be found by some sort of testing. I don't know how I've gotten through 4 years of life like this. I feel like I'm gradually fading away, I feel that weak and unwell.

 

[LLight]

None of it does anything, ever. I'm pretty much finished at this point.

Have you tried betaine?

I begin to wonder if you should try this: drink once a day only (based on Intermittent drinking, oxytocin and human health - PubMed) and eat more fat (I don't remember your macros) for metabolic water material and boiled starch (they might release water slowly during digestion or metabolism, I don't know when water is released).

Ideally for the test, try not to put any water in your mouth except that one time you drink. So teeth brushing once a day only.

In drosophila (I know it's not necessarily transposable but such water "receptors" seem to exist in mammals too), there are receptors in their "mouth" sensing water and modulating water homeostasis.

Water sensor ppk28 modulates Drosophila lifespan and physiology through AKH signaling

Sensory inputs are known to control aging. The underlying circuitry through which these cues are integrated into regulatory physiological outputs, however, remains largely unknown. Here, we use the taste sensory system of the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster to detail one such circuit...

www.pnas.org

In this model, mutant flies should maintain higher levels of internal water, which in Drosophila can be measured by the subtraction of mass postdesiccation (“dry mass”) from its initial mass (“wet mass”) (41). Indeed, ppk28 mutant flies showed an increased change in mass after desiccation than background controls (Fig. 4A). Although ppk28 mutants maintained a modest, yet significant, increase in wet mass (Fig. S3A), this is almost certainly due to augmented stores of water, as well as TAG and glucose levels (Fig. 2 A and B), rather than an increase in gross size. Indeed, whole-organism protein levels were not significantly different between ppk28 mutants and their background controls (Fig. S7). Furthermore, insects with higher internal water content have been found to be desiccation resistant (42), and we found that ppk28 mutants exhibited significantly increased survivorship under desiccating conditions (Fig. 4B). Consistent with a model by which internal water stores are increased through the action of the AKH-signaling pathway, we found that constitutive activation of AKH-expressing cells also increased the difference between wet and dry mass (Fig. S8). Together, these results suggest that loss of ppk28 function may drive the production of metabolic water through a glucagon-like AKH-dependent mobilization of lipid stores as a compensatory response to the absence of sensory information pertaining to accessible water.

So, flies whose water receptors were suppressed did have more internal water retention and were more dessiccation resistant.

I was thinking that bodies could mainly sense blood osmolarity but the way you interact with water even if you don't drink could be important too.

Maybe you need a reset of these receptors if such a thing exists.

 

[Callmestar]

Have you tried betaine?

I begin to wonder if you should try this: drink once a day only (based on Intermittent drinking, oxytocin and human health - PubMed) and eat more fat (I don't remember your macros) for metabolic water material and boiled starch (they might release water slowly during digestion or metabolism, I don't know when water is released).

Ideally for the test, try not to put any water in your mouth except that one time you drink. So teeth brushing once a day only.

In drosophila (I know it's not necessarily transposable but such water "receptors" seem to exist in mammals too), there are receptors in their "mouth" sensing water and modulating water homeostasis.

Water sensor ppk28 modulates Drosophila lifespan and physiology through AKH signaling

Sensory inputs are known to control aging. The underlying circuitry through which these cues are integrated into regulatory physiological outputs, however, remains largely unknown. Here, we use the taste sensory system of the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster to detail one such circuit...

www.pnas.org

So, flies whose water receptors were suppressed did have more internal water retention and were more dessiccation resistant.

I was thinking that bodies could mainly sense blood osmolarity but the way you interact with water even if you don't drink could be important too.

Maybe you need a reset of these receptors if such a thing exists.

Very interested and matches up with my previous research. I have tried experiments of limiting my drinking but it's a very difficult balance. Unfortunately, because I am always losing fluids due to lack of urine concentrating ability, if I were to drink say just once a day, a large amount of liquid, it would be dumped out very quickly and leave me feeling severely dehydrated the rest of the day. At the same time, I have in a hope of rebalancing things, on several occasions gone 24 - 36 hours without drinking anything in the hope it would help trigger urine concentration. Most of the time it does very little to improve the situation and my urine barely gets any darker. I feel extremely dehydrated while doing this but somehow, not drinking for 24 hours to severe dehydration and then beggening drinking again, temporarily makes me feel more hydrated than me drinking regularly throughout the day. It's as though that water restriction and then reintroducing it causing the body to retain the fluid better temporarily and I feel more hydrated for a short while. Unfortunately, this is short-lived and I go back to dumping out all fluids and feeling extremely dehydrated.

I may try drinking once a day but I would be so dehydrated it may do more harm than good.

Yes I do have some Betaine that I've been taking.

 

[LLight]

Maybe I'm wrong but betaine could make it a bit more sustainable for you. And it could necessitate some time before you have enough.

Betaine could increase ATP production which if I'm not mistaken makes water structuration possible.

Betaine is a positive regulator of mitochondrial respiration - PubMed

Betaine protects cells from environmental stress and serves as a methyl donor in several biochemical pathways. It reduces cardiovascular disease risk and protects liver cells from alcoholic liver damage and nonalcoholic steatohepatitis. Its pretreatment can rescue cells exposed to toxins such as...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

At 5mM betaine the ATP concentration was increased by 100%.

Structured water would make the water less able to escape the cell and thus more hydrating.

Release of osmolytes induced by phagocytosis and hormones in rat liver - PubMed

Betaine, taurine, and inositol participate as osmolytes in liver cell volume homeostasis and interfere with cell function. In this study we investigated whether osmolytes are also released from the intact liver independent of osmolarity changes. In the perfused rat liver, phagocytosis of carbon...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In this study we investigated whether osmolytes are also released from the intact liver independent of osmolarity changes. In the perfused rat liver, phagocytosis of carbon particles led to a four- to fivefold stimulation of taurine efflux into the effluent perfusate above basal release rates. This taurine release was inhibited by 70-80% by the anion exchange inhibitor DIDS or by pretreatment of the rats with gadolinium chloride. Administration of vasopressin, cAMP, extracellular ATP, and glucagon also increased release of betaine and/or taurine, whereas insulin, extracellular UTP, and adenosine were without effect.

I'm not sure if the liver preferentially uptakes osmolytes at the expense of other organs and tissues and make them available to the blood when vasopressin or glucagon are elevated (the study of Drosophila let think that glucagon could be involved in water restriction response: "Specifically, we find that water-sensing taste signals alter nutrient homeostasis and regulate a glucagon-like signaling pathway to govern production of internal water production.").

The thing is if you are drinking often, these hormones might not be elevated as they could, leading the liver not to release enough osmolytes for the tissues?

 

[Callmestar]

Maybe I'm wrong but betaine could make it a bit more sustainable for you. And it could necessitate some time before you have enough.

Betaine could increase ATP production which if I'm not mistaken makes water structuration possible.

Betaine is a positive regulator of mitochondrial respiration - PubMed

Betaine protects cells from environmental stress and serves as a methyl donor in several biochemical pathways. It reduces cardiovascular disease risk and protects liver cells from alcoholic liver damage and nonalcoholic steatohepatitis. Its pretreatment can rescue cells exposed to toxins such as...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Structured water would make the water less able to escape the cell and thus more hydrating.

Release of osmolytes induced by phagocytosis and hormones in rat liver - PubMed

Betaine, taurine, and inositol participate as osmolytes in liver cell volume homeostasis and interfere with cell function. In this study we investigated whether osmolytes are also released from the intact liver independent of osmolarity changes. In the perfused rat liver, phagocytosis of carbon...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'm not sure if the liver preferentially uptakes osmolytes at the expense of other organs and tissues and make them available to the blood when vasopressin or glucagon are elevated (the study of Drosophila let think that glucagon could be involved in water restriction response: "Specifically, we find that water-sensing taste signals alter nutrient homeostasis and regulate a glucagon-like signaling pathway to govern production of internal water production.").

The thing is if you are drinking often, these hormones might not be elevated as they could, leading the liver not to release enough osmolytes for the tissues?

Yep it is definitely a plausible theory and one I will continue to explore. If it is one of the components causing my symptoms, it's just about how I can manage to rebalance without constantly dehydrating myself.

When you are referring to Betaine, can you link me to the form of it you are talking about? From googling it I cannot see pure Betaine to available anywhere. Only in a blend of amino acid powers at very low doses or as some sort of fishing bait. I only have Betaine HCL which I don't believe is the right type and wouldn't be giving me a high enough dose.

 

[LLight]

When you are referring to Betaine, can you link me to the form of it you are talking about? From googling it I cannot see pure Betaine to available anywhere. Only in a blend of amino acid powers at very low doses or as some sort of fishing bait. I only have Betaine HCL which I don't believe is the right type and wouldn't be giving me a high enough dose.

The form is called betaine TMG (Trimethylglycine).
For example:

NOW Foods, TMG, 1,000 mg, 100 Tablets

iherb.com

 

[Callmestar]

The form is called betaine TMG (Trimethylglycine).
For example:

NOW Foods, TMG, 1,000 mg, 100 Tablets

iherb.com

Thanks, was just going to say I saw that if I search for Trimethylglycine (TMG) rather than Betaine it comes up.

 

[Callmestar]

Received the Ancestral Grass Fed Thyroid with Liver capsules a few days ago. Have gradually increased the dose to now taking 4 tablets twice a day. Again I experience absolutely nothing from it.
Supposedly this contains Natural Desiccated Thyroid and others taking it her have experience taking just one capsule often too strong. Why do I feel nothing from any of these supplements?

 

[Callmestar]

I could say it's still early days in my venture into Peat style health / eating but after a couple of months of implementing a lot of whats been advised I haven't seen any improvement and continue to feel awful. The last couple of weeks have been the worst I've been in months. I had one or two days a few weeks back where I felt slightly better but it was short lived.

I am continuing to implement Peat style eating, taking Thyroid, Pregest E, and balancing my nutrition the best I can. I have just done a 3 day stool test to see if there may be anything going on in the gut in terms of digestion, infection, parasites etc. I have no obvious digestive symptoms but at this point, it's worth looking at. Sample test (not my test) https://www.gdx.net/core/sample-reports/gi-effects-2200-sample-report.pdf

Outside of this my Endocrinologist is willing to allow me to try Clofibrate, on the off chance it may increase my urine concentration. There is quite a bit of information on Clofibrate causing antidiuresis when googling 'Clofibrate Vasopressin' Clofibrate Insipidus' 'Clofibrae Antidiuresis' etc Example: Clofibrate-Induced Antidiuresis

I just wondered what you guys think? I know Clofibrate is prescribed for other means, to lower Cholesterol but it has to be worth a try at this point. Things are unbearable at times. My Cholesterol is slightly high anyway so it shouldn't be a problem in that sense. I'm sure it has other not so good effects but at this point, my symptoms probably outweigh any damage the medication might cause long term.

 

[Vileplume]

Hey @Callmestar, I apologize if you've answered this before, but some supplements targeting blood glucose balance might help. I improved initially on Peat, and then for a while I took a downturn that I'm still coming out from. For some reason, many do well on Peat with all the sugar, and some struggle for a bit, before either quitting or trial-and-erring until they improve. Much of the time, this might be because of poor blood glucose response, meaning poor utilization of the sugar, which could stem from a deficiency of several possible minerals or vitamins. I've been reading into the posts of old forum user "aquaman," who had success alleviating his blood sugar issues by doing the following:

-mixing digestible starches and fruit with meals
-eating lots of carbs early in the day
-prioritizing solid foods over liquids
-ensuring adequate mineral intake (cheese and magnesium bicarbonate water)
-using the following suuplements, in low doses, 3-4 times a day with meals: B1, B3, B7, aspirin, pyrucet.

I'm trying it out., On day one now, and my tachycardia and hot flashes are reduced. I'll update as time goes on, but if you're looking for new things to try, could be worth a shot. I have high fasting blood sugar, and it looks like yours was on the high end of standard range when you first posted test results.

 

[Peatness]

Just read this article posted on another thread, it might be of interest

The Aging GABAergic System and Its Nutritional Support

Aging is associated with a decline in hormones and an associated decline in GABAergic function and calcium and ion current dysregulation. Neurosteroid hormones act as direct calcium channel blockers, or they can act indirectly on calcium channels through their interaction with GABA receptors...

www.hindawi.com

 

[Callmestar]

Just read this article posted on another thread, it might be of interest

The Aging GABAergic System and Its Nutritional Support

Aging is associated with a decline in hormones and an associated decline in GABAergic function and calcium and ion current dysregulation. Neurosteroid hormones act as direct calcium channel blockers, or they can act indirectly on calcium channels through their interaction with GABA receptors...

www.hindawi.com

Thanks very interesting. Definitely need to work on getting GABA up but was there a specific part of that article you thought linked to my symptoms?

 

[Korven]

I could say it's still early days in my venture into Peat style health / eating but after a couple of months of implementing a lot of whats been advised I haven't seen any improvement and continue to feel awful. The last couple of weeks have been the worst I've been in months. I had one or two days a few weeks back where I felt slightly better but it was short lived.

I am continuing to implement Peat style eating, taking Thyroid, Pregest E, and balancing my nutrition the best I can. I have just done a 3 day stool test to see if there may be anything going on in the gut in terms of digestion, infection, parasites etc. I have no obvious digestive symptoms but at this point, it's worth looking at. Sample test (not my test) https://www.gdx.net/core/sample-reports/gi-effects-2200-sample-report.pdf

Outside of this my Endocrinologist is willing to allow me to try Clofibrate, on the off chance it may increase my urine concentration. There is quite a bit of information on Clofibrate causing antidiuresis when googling 'Clofibrate Vasopressin' Clofibrate Insipidus' 'Clofibrae Antidiuresis' etc Example: Clofibrate-Induced Antidiuresis

I just wondered what you guys think? I know Clofibrate is prescribed for other means, to lower Cholesterol but it has to be worth a try at this point. Things are unbearable at times. My Cholesterol is slightly high anyway so it shouldn't be a problem in that sense. I'm sure it has other not so good effects but at this point, my symptoms probably outweigh any damage the medication might cause long term.

I think the stool test is a great idea!

A chronic latent infection and/or gut dysbiosis (with increased intestinal permeability) doesn't necessarily have to show up as noticeable digestive issues. It can manifest itself in other ways, joint pain and stiffness, skin issues, etc. Perhaps it could have something to do with your dehydration and inability to concentrate urine.

It could also give you some clues as to why you're not responding properly to thyroid supplementation. A potential bacterial overgrowth and gut inflammation will interfere with thyroid function and oxidative metabolism. Sometimes a round of antibiotics or antimicrobials to clear out the gut helps a ton. Just figuring out how to make thyroid supplementation work can give you many answers.

Most people here would recommend against probiotics but I think they can have their use - it really depends on what's going on with your gut microbiome. Taking probiotic X can make things a lot worse for one person, while it is life-changing for another person. There's lots of good info on the site cfsremission.com.

...It's kind of weird though that you didn't feel anything from progest-E. Another person told me that they didn't get the usual soothing progesterone bliss from recent batches of progest-E, so I don't know might just might be something off with the product? I can send you a PM with a better source of prog if you want.