Chronic Gut Irritation And Histamine Response

[ilovethesea]

What are some things I could to de-sensitize my gut?

So many things produce an allergic response (runny nose). But I really struggle to get enough calories if I'm strictly avoiding every possible histamine trigger.

My problem foods include:
- all starches
- starchy vegetables eg. potato
- fruits with pectin eg. apples, pears
- most commercial fruit juices (Simple Orange pulp-free OJ seems to be ok)
- eggs
- honey
- tomatoes (nightshades I think?)
- chocolate (newest suspicion)

So basically I'm left with dairy, sugar, non-starchy fruits, and meat/fish. It's difficult especially when I am not at home, and I still feel like something is always setting off my allergies.

I can manage ok on Benadryl (one at night and one or two during the day) but I don't know if that's a great long-term solution. Cyproheptadine lasts longer to prevent the allergies, but I find it encourages mouth breathing at night. Whereas on Benadryl I can usually nose breathe if I tape my mouth before bed. I guess I have low CO2 from all this.

Before I started this diet 4 years ago I never had these food allergies (just dust/pollen), and I never mouth breathed. I was hypothyroid before, so I guess my histamine issues were being suppressed by high cortisol which Ray's diet has now lowered.

Note: I am taking thyroid, vitamin A, Thorne K2, D drops, cascara, aspirin and progesterone/pregnenolone depending on where I am in my cycle. Just started Health Natura urea.

 

[Tarmander]

What was your diet like before you started the Peat experiment? How do you do on charcoal?

 

[ilovethesea]

What was your diet like before you started the Peat experiment? How do you do on charcoal?

Low protein. A lot of vegetables, pasta, bread. Rarely had fruit or dairy. I supplemented fish oil! I wouldn't go back to eating that way.

I do take charcoal occasionally, and I have the carrot every day. I'm sure it has some benefit, but it doesn't seem to stop allergy symptoms for me.

However, I've noticed a few times that if I drink alcohol with a meal - like if I go out to dinner - I sometimes have less of a runny nose the next day. I think it must kill the bacteria.

I also forgot to mention I've been taking penicillin (Pen VK) since the summer. I started taking 1/32 3x a day for a couple months. Now I'm on 1/32 or 1/64 every morning.

 

[Tarmander]

Low protein. A lot of vegetables, pasta, bread. Rarely had fruit or dairy. I supplemented fish oil! I wouldn't go back to eating that way.

I do take charcoal occasionally, and I have the carrot every day. I'm sure it has some benefit, but it doesn't seem to stop allergy symptoms for me.

However, I've noticed a few times that if I drink alcohol with a meal - like if I go out to dinner - I sometimes have less of a runny nose the next day. I think it must kill the bacteria.

I also forgot to mention I've been taking penicillin (Pen VK) since the summer. I started taking 1/32 3x a day for a couple months. Now I'm on 1/32 or 1/64 every morning.

Interesting. Charcoal every day might help, along with the carrot. Also, I start sneezing when I am exposed to EMF, like WIFI for too long, or when I am in front of a blue screen for awhile.

 

[Entropy]

bone broth for gut?

You have any skin issues?

Anything that irritates my gut shows in my skin in a few day span.

So sometimes eating less improved my symptoms, I've seen people clear up bad skin reactions just by water fasting. That's when you know something your eating is screwing with you if no food makes you feel better.

Noticeable culprits were gums, beans, wheat, nuts and additives.

Avoiding these things but still get clogged nose I've noticed it would be just a lack of fresh air and overexposure to dust or mold maybe, Simply leaving the window open at night helped my sinuses. But screwed if it's too cold!

 

[ilovethesea]

Interesting. Charcoal every day might help, along with the carrot. Also, I start sneezing when I am exposed to EMF, like WIFI for too long, or when I am in front of a blue screen for awhile.

I'll try that. I've been taking the granular Health Natura kind but maybe it's not as effective as the Charcoal House fine powder.

Have you ever tried those EMF neutralizers? Living in the city I'm probably exposed to 100s of people's wifi.

 

[ilovethesea]

bone broth for gut?

You have any skin issues?

Anything that irritates my gut shows in my skin in a few day span.

So sometimes eating less improved my symptoms, I've seen people clear up bad skin reactions just by water fasting. That's when you know something your eating is screwing with you if no food makes you feel better.

Noticeable culprits were gums, beans, wheat, nuts and additives.

Avoiding these things but still get clogged nose I've noticed it would be just a lack of fresh air and overexposure to dust or mold maybe, Simply leaving the window open at night helped my sinuses. But screwed if it's too cold!

I haven't done bone broth on a consistent basis. I'll try it. Beef broth makes me gag so I'll have to get chicken necks. I was trying to do the Great Lakes gelatin powders as I keep reading that they are gut healing. But for me they seem to just irritate it more.

No major skin issues except prone to redness and sometimes I get a pimple here or there if I'm not consistent with vitamin A, Progest-E or pregnenolone.

Never tried a water fast!

I did an allergy test years ago and dust and pollen were what came up - no foods. But I take it that Ray doesn't think those tests are accurate? When I asked him about my allergies, he didn't even address environmental causes, just the foods. And avoiding them does seem to help, just not completely...

I'll try the window open, although it is freezing here! I'm sure I don't get enough fresh air in the winter. I hope there's no mold here, and I try to dust often, but who knows.

 

[Tarmander]

I'll try that. I've been taking the granular Health Natura kind but maybe it's not as effective as the Charcoal House fine powder.

Have you ever tried those EMF neutralizers? Living in the city I'm probably exposed to 100s of people's wifi.

Most of the ones you wear are crap. You would have to somehow wear something that raised your blood sugar and lowered stress to combat what EMF does (the opposite) I think the best solution if you live in a city is to get some EMF blockers. If you own a place, there is a special paint that blocks EMF. If you rent there are faraday cages you can make for where you sleep and that kind of thing. Well worth looking into. Getting an EZ-UP and 100 ft of screen door material (about 200$ overall) can build a rudimentary EMF blocking area. There are also large pieces of insulation material with aluminum on one side that you can get from Home Depot for like 7 bucks each. Putting them all around your place might work too. You would need a meter to make sure you were getting the right coverage.

 

[blob69]

What are some things I could to de-sensitize my gut?

So many things produce an allergic response (runny nose). But I really struggle to get enough calories if I'm strictly avoiding every possible histamine trigger.

My problem foods include:
- all starches
- starchy vegetables eg. potato
- fruits with pectin eg. apples, pears
- most commercial fruit juices (Simple Orange pulp-free OJ seems to be ok)
- eggs
- honey
- tomatoes (nightshades I think?)
- chocolate (newest suspicion)

So basically I'm left with dairy, sugar, non-starchy fruits, and meat/fish. It's difficult especially when I am not at home, and I still feel like something is always setting off my allergies.

I can manage ok on Benadryl (one at night and one or two during the day) but I don't know if that's a great long-term solution. Cyproheptadine lasts longer to prevent the allergies, but I find it encourages mouth breathing at night. Whereas on Benadryl I can usually nose breathe if I tape my mouth before bed. I guess I have low CO2 from all this.

Before I started this diet 4 years ago I never had these food allergies (just dust/pollen), and I never mouth breathed. I was hypothyroid before, so I guess my histamine issues were being suppressed by high cortisol which Ray's diet has now lowered.

Note: I am taking thyroid, vitamin A, Thorne K2, D drops, cascara, aspirin and progesterone/pregnenolone depending on where I am in my cycle. Just started Health Natura urea.

In other posts I saw you mention a severe aspirin allergy that got better after you kept taking high doses for a while. Have you tried completely stopping aspirin for a while just to see if it's still causing issues?

I was just reading about the FAILSAFE diet (which deals with salicylate intolerance, as well as amine and glutamate intolerances - for example, gelatin contains glutamate) and your symptoms sound like they could be helped by it. If eating according to Peat's ideas, the diet may contain foods that are deemed to be very problematic by FAILSAFE standards, like fruit, old fish or shellfish (seafood has to be exceptionally fresh to not form amines). For example, they classify oranges & tomatoes as the worst offenders.

My problem is that I'm most definitely hypothyroid but T3 causes bad headaches/migraines even in small amounts. Looking into FAILSAFE I see that migraines are commonly helped by the diet as well (the relationship between amines and migraines has been known for a long time), so I'm going to try it myself to hopefully be able to tolerate thyroid better. Incidentally, my headache problem got really bad since I've adopted Peat's ideas and I couldn't figure out why. Apart from huge amounts of oranges I was also eating canned oysters, canned fish, old liver, bone broth and other food that could be problematic for me. And of course I took the aspirin. Maybe it's some sort of a cumulative effect of these chemicals that taxes the already sluggish liver? I know about people reporting elevated liver enzymes after taking aspirin in the RP FB group.

I believe these intolerances should go away once thyroid is sorted and stress hormones are down, but it's hard to do that if one can't tolerate thyroid at all! :)

Have your allergies gotten any better with time? Maybe it's just time that's needed for the body to get used to increased thyroid function, but I believe yours has been higher for a while now?

 

[blob69]

Oh and I forgot to mention that a proper elimination diet seems to be needed to really pinpoint if these chemicals are a problem. They say that the reactions can be delayed or cumulative or the chemicals can create a state where you are more sensitive to other stressors (like for some people exercise doesn't induce asthma anymore when they avoid chemicals for a while). So like everything about health, this is quite complicated as well!

Also, below are a few studies discussing liver damage from salicylates. Liver damage leads to hypoglycemia, and as Peat has said himself, hypoglycemia can make one prone to all sorts of allergies.

"About 50% of patients given salicylate in full anti-inflammatory dosage develop minor abnormalities of liver function. There is usually a mild to moderate increase in plasma aminotransferase activity with patchy necrosis and degeneration of hepatocytes. These changes are related to plasma salicylate concentration and are usually rapidly reversible. In a small minority of patients, particularly the young, liver damage is more severe and may be associated with liver failure, acidosis, hypoglycaemia and encephalopathy."
Liver damage with non-narcotic analgesics. - PubMed - NCBI

Effects of non-narcotic analgesics on the liver. - PubMed - NCBI
Hepatotoxicity of mild analgesics. - PubMed - NCBI
Hepatotoxicity following the therapeutic use of antipyretic analgesics. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[ilovethesea]

In other posts I saw you mention a severe aspirin allergy that got better after you kept taking high doses for a while. Have you tried completely stopping aspirin for a while just to see if it's still causing issues?

I was just reading about the FAILSAFE diet (which deals with salicylate intolerance, as well as amine and glutamate intolerances - for example, gelatin contains glutamate) and your symptoms sound like they could be helped by it. If eating according to Peat's ideas, the diet may contain foods that are deemed to be very problematic by FAILSAFE standards, like fruit, old fish or shellfish (seafood has to be exceptionally fresh to not form amines). For example, they classify oranges & tomatoes as the worst offenders.

My problem is that I'm most definitely hypothyroid but T3 causes bad headaches/migraines even in small amounts. Looking into FAILSAFE I see that migraines are commonly helped by the diet as well (the relationship between amines and migraines has been known for a long time), so I'm going to try it myself to hopefully be able to tolerate thyroid better. Incidentally, my headache problem got really bad since I've adopted Peat's ideas and I couldn't figure out why. Apart from huge amounts of oranges I was also eating canned oysters, canned fish, old liver, bone broth and other food that could be problematic for me. And of course I took the aspirin. Maybe it's some sort of a cumulative effect of these chemicals that taxes the already sluggish liver? I know about people reporting elevated liver enzymes after taking aspirin in the RP FB group.

I believe these intolerances should go away once thyroid is sorted and stress hormones are down, but it's hard to do that if one can't tolerate thyroid at all! :)

Have your allergies gotten any better with time? Maybe it's just time that's needed for the body to get used to increased thyroid function, but I believe yours has been higher for a while now?

Yes I'm still tolerating aspirin fine. It seemed the week of high doses with cyproheptadine at the same time did the trick. Now even if I forget to take aspirin for many days or even weeks, I haven't had that bad allergic reaction again.

But yes I do have issues with tomatoes! It took me a long time to identify that. I get a runny nose and sneezing the next day. I rarely eat oranges so I don't know about those - orange juice seems to be fine as long as it's certain pulp-free brands, or freshly squeezed and strained. I also eat a lot of shellfish - fresh, frozen, canned - with no problems. But I can't have more than 1 tbsp of gelatin or 1/egg a day, and I try to avoid starches in general as I have ongoing endotoxin issues.

I think it's best to just eliminate the problem foods temporarily and find some way of getting the nutrients with foods you do tolerate - otherwise the histamine etc. just raises stress.

Re: elevated liver enzymes, I had them when I was hypothyroid before discovering Ray, and they normalized within months when I started taking a combined T3/T4 thyroid supplement. I haven't had them measured lately though. I'm sure I'm still hypothyroid - I struggle with finding the right dose that doesn't raise stress hormones (I find it hard to get in enough calories beyond a certain point).

Have you tried taking 1mcg of T3 at a time? I'm pretty certain Ray had suggestions for people who couldn't tolerate thyroid in the Peatarian exchanges:
Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

 

[blob69]

Have you tried taking 1mcg of T3 at a time? I'm pretty certain Ray had suggestions for people who couldn't tolerate thyroid in the Peatarian exchanges:
Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

For me even the smallest dose caused problems, it was really strange cause I'm definitely hypo. Now I've been on the FAILSAFE diet for 2 weeks and have already raised T3 to 25 mcg. I had only half a day of a mild headache after I cheated on the diet, which is amazing - I used to get like 2 or 3 days of pretty severe headaches weekly on this dose of T3, even when raising much more slowly. Also so far I didn't get an adrenaline response to T3, even if heart rate goes high I feel pretty good. I'm mainly eating dairy, potatoes, white wheat and eggs, and everything needs to be fresh.

The FAILSAFE diet seems to really help people with migraines, asthma, skin rashes... for some reason. I'm thinking our livers are not processing chemicals well (incl. aspirin). I'm sure this gets better when thyroid function is restored, but like I said, maybe this is hard to do when the body is continually stressed by a wrong diet.

 

[ilovethesea]

For me even the smallest dose caused problems, it was really strange cause I'm definitely hypo. Now I've been on the FAILSAFE diet for 2 weeks and have already raised T3 to 25 mcg. I had only half a day of a mild headache after I cheated on the diet, which is amazing - I used to get like 2 or 3 days of pretty severe headaches weekly on this dose of T3, even when raising much more slowly. Also so far I didn't get an adrenaline response to T3, even if heart rate goes high I feel pretty good. I'm mainly eating dairy, potatoes, white wheat and eggs, and everything needs to be fresh.

The FAILSAFE diet seems to really help people with migraines, asthma, skin rashes... for some reason. I'm thinking our livers are not processing chemicals well (incl. aspirin). I'm sure this gets better when thyroid function is restored, but like I said, maybe this is hard to do when the body is continually stressed by a wrong diet.

You're taking 25mcg of T3 all at once? Or do you mean per day in divided doses?

I wouldn't be able to do that diet due to all the grains, potatoes, beans, pears... too much endotoxin for me! I think that's probably my bigger problem - there is a quote from Ray where he said it's the major cause of hormonal imbalance. The Failsafe diet would eliminate a lot of fruits I tolerate well, so it doesn't sound like I'd have enough to eat!

 

[blob69]

You're taking 25mcg of T3 all at once? Or do you mean per day in divided doses?

I wouldn't be able to do that diet due to all the grains, potatoes, beans, pears... too much endotoxin for me! I think that's probably my bigger problem - there is a quote from Ray where he said it's the major cause of hormonal imbalance. The Failsafe diet would eliminate a lot of fruits I tolerate well, so it doesn't sound like I'd have enough to eat!

I take 25 mcg in divided doses, and try to take it with food if I can. I'm still unwell, so not claiming any miracles from this diet. It seems to just work for migraines so far.

Of course, if you did proper trials with certain foods and they don’t bother you, then by all means eat them.

Do you get allergic symptoms with any kind of starch (also potatoes, white rice, very well cooked etc.)?

There’s also diets like the “oligoantigenic diet” that consist of a few foods only, if it gets rid of symptoms, you can then trial each food. This diet (with white rice or potato, some meat, brassicas, pear or apple - I think that's it) got rid of 93% of severe migraines in trials with children: Is migraine food allergy? A double-blind controlled trial of oligoantigenic diet treatment. - PubMed - NCBI

Maybe that doesn’t apply to your symptoms, but it’s interesting nonetheless.

I know about Ray’s stance on starch, but it seems that for some people it works better than fruit. Maybe fruit is hard to get ripe nowadays?

I guess there could also be a combination issue, i.e. eating fruit with milk or something. That is why I think very limited diets could be valuable for a short while.

What happens if you try increasing thyroid? Do allergic symptoms get worse?

 

[PakPik]

Hello @ilovethesea :)

My problem foods include:
- all starches

I try to avoid starches in general as I have ongoing endotoxin issues.

Do you think you may have a small intestine infection? That can cause a person to not be able to digest starch before the bugs turn it into a putrefying, poisonous mass that harms cellular respiration. Furthermore, the bugs themselves and the putrefying mass contain antigens that can activate immune cells such as mast cells. If mast cells get activated they start releasing mediators, which can include histamine, serotonin, eicosanoids, etc... Oftentimes the problem goes beyond histamine to include dozens of other mediators, besides the cellular respiration damage by all those antigens and mediators which can cause symptoms in and of itself.

That happened to me, so I was zero starch for a long time, then as I started to kill the infections I was able to reintroduce starch. During that process cyproheptadine offered some support lessening the effects of histamine, serotonin, calming mast cells, etc...Then finally the infections were eradicated, G.I tissues healed enough and starch became a staple for me ever since. Just -non-starchy- food for thought!

I also forgot to mention I've been taking penicillin (Pen VK) since the summer. I started taking 1/32 3x a day for a couple months. Now I'm on 1/32 or 1/64 every morning.

I've read many accounts of people getting weakened or even sick from chronic antibiotic use. I wonder if it has anything to do with your issues.

So basically I'm left with dairy, sugar, non-starchy fruits, and meat/fish.

I also eat a lot of shellfish - fresh, frozen, canned - with no problems

Do you eat only fresh meats/fish? Left-overs, non-fresh, and inappropiately handled meats/fish can be a big burden to a person, specially to hypersensitive ones, because of the high amine (like histamine and polyamines) content. Aged cheese can pose the same problem.With those amines the toxicological problems can be cumulative and or synergistic, as per the following paper. I'm sharing a couple of excerpts.
http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC605/Class Presentations-2014/Biogenic Amines.pdf

"This article deals exclusively with biogenic amines. These compounds have been known for some time and are found in varying concentrations in a wide range of foods, including fish, cheese, meat, wine, beer, vegetables, and chocolate (Smith, 1980; ten Brink et al., 1990; Halász et al., 1994)."

"The intake of foods with high concentrations of biogenic amines can cause migraine, headaches, gastric and intestinal problems, and pseudo-allergic responses, chiefly brought about by the toxic action of histamine and tyramine, known respectively as “histamine poisoning” and “cheese reaction” (Smith, 1980; Taylor, 1985; Stratton et al., 1991). The most common symptoms of histamine poisoning are due to the effect on the cardiovascular system, producing low blood pressure, reddening of the skin, and headaches, oedemas and rashes typical of allergic reactions (Stratton et al., 1991; Van Gelderem et al., 1992; Bardócz, 1995). Typical symptoms of tyramine poisoning are migraines, headaches, and increased blood pressure (Joosten, 1987). Tyramine also causes the release of noradrenaline from the sympathetic nervous system (Bardócz, 1995). Other amines, such as spermidine or spermine, have also been associated with the development of food allergy (Lux et al., 1980)."

"Putrescine and cadaverine, although not considered toxic individually, can enhance the effect of histamine and tyramine by interacting with the aminooxidases and interfering with the detoxifying mechanism (Rice et al., 1976; Taylor, 1985; Sattler et al., 1988)."

"In normal circumstances, the human body is able to rapidly detoxify histamine and tyramine absorbed from foods by acetylation and oxidation mediated by the enzymes monoamine oxidase (MAO; EC 1.4.3.4), diamine oxidase (DAO; EC 1.4.3.6), and polyamine oxidase (PAO; EC 1.5.3.11) (Rice et al., 1976; Bardócz, 1995). However, if these detoxifying mechanisms are upset, either because of high amine intake or because the individual is allergic or is deficient in aminooxidases due to consumption of or treatment with oxidase enzymes (e.g., monoamine oxidase inhibitor—MAOI), biogenic amines may build up in the body and could cause serious toxicological problems (McCabe, 1986; Halász et al., 1994)."

"It is generally very difficult to establish limits of toxicity of biogenic amines in a given product, because their effect does not depend on their presence alone (type of amine and levels present), but is also influenced by other compounds (modulat- ing their effect) and by the specific efficiency of the detoxifying mechanisms in different individuals. Hence, the toxicity of biogenic amines will depend on factors associated with the food itself (quantitative and qualitative) and also on factors associated with the consumer (individual susceptibility and state of health)."

But yes I do have issues with tomatoes! It took me a long time to identify that.

According to this study, tomatoes are one of the "Top 10 major dietary contributors of polyamines" in the "Putrescine" category See TABLE 2 Development of a Polyamine Database for Assessing Dietary Intake
It's interesting to note that orange juice is also a great source of polyamines. I wonder if that's why some people don't do well with orange juice. Or maybe the effect is lessened due to the antioxidant content, but still, there may be something to that.

Table 2
Top 10 major dietary contributors of polyamines as assessed by the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center food frequency questionnaire

Food item Polyamine contribution (nmol/day)
Putrescine

Orange juice and grapefruit juice 44,441
Oranges, grapefruit, and tangerines (not including juice) 17,613
Fresh tomatoes 10,042
Bananas 7,344
Beer (all types) 6,374
Corn and hominy 5,832
Cheese (eg, American, cheddar) 5,592
Potato chips, tortilla chips, corn chips, puffs, and pretzels 4,595
Burritos, tacos, tostadas, and quesadillas 4,411
Green pepper and green chilies 4,343

I hope you can sort it out!

 

[TubZy]

I think histamine can be related to liver health and gut health (endotoxin). Maybe liver more particular as it can't clear out excess histamine and toxins out fast enough (just like clearing out estrogen). I know phase 1 detox consists of b vitamins (b1/b2 mainly) and phase 2 detox, glycine and taurine can help.

If you are oversensitive to perfumes, fragrances etc. it usually stems with a liver detox issue, mainly phase 1, I believe. So thiamine and riboflavin (along with b complex can help).

Other than that could be possible underlying infection.

 

[REOSIRENS]

Chronic gut irritation is not fun... SSRI syndrome is characterized by it... To solve or ease the pain you can take active charcoal(very effective serotonin lowering actions) is a must have.. I always take with me when eating out...It seems to tackle food allergies too... Other helpful things are Riboflavin...Lithium .... Manganese....orange blossom tea or a plain old calcium carbonate with vitamin D(lowers serotonin in the gut)... When I have stomach/gut issues I just aim red light to these body areas and it solves the issues in few minutes(1 or 5minutes)

 

[Evandrojr]

For me even the smallest dose caused problems, it was really strange cause I'm definitely hypo. Now I've been on the FAILSAFE diet for 2 weeks and have already raised T3 to 25 mcg. I had only half a day of a mild headache after I cheated on the diet, which is amazing - I used to get like 2 or 3 days of pretty severe headaches weekly on this dose of T3, even when raising much more slowly. Also so far I didn't get an adrenaline response to T3, even if heart rate goes high I feel pretty good. I'm mainly eating dairy, potatoes, white wheat and eggs, and everything needs to be fresh.

The FAILSAFE diet seems to really help people with migraines, asthma, skin rashes... for some reason. I'm thinking our livers are not processing chemicals well (incl. aspirin). I'm sure this gets better when thyroid function is restored, but like I said, maybe this is hard to do when the body is continually stressed by a wrong diet.

Blob69, how are you doing on the Failsafe diet? I actually started reading about it because of you mentioning it. I’ve been on it for just 1 week and few amazing!! So many of my issues I now realize were related to salicylates!

I do find it awfully restrictive, specially hard to get enough potassium it seems. In case you’re still doing it, what does a day of eating looks like for you?

Thanks!!!

 

[Motif]

@Evandrojr

@Entropy

@ilovethesea

Hey guys. Any improvement of your food intolerances meanwhile?