Choline: An Essential Nutrient for Public Health that we’re not getting enough of in our diet

[David PS]

Way does adding more eggs to my diet cause my mood to tank? Been feeling a bit 'off' since I started about a week ago. I'm having 2 eggs a day, no egg whites. I am also increasing meat intake - very slowly.

The simple answer is I do not know. Going slowing is the correct approach.

20 Dangers of Eating Eggs Everyday - Recommendation Intake - Medic Pole

There are 10 dangers of eating eggs everyday. Most of them are caused by the high levels of cholesterol. This article try to give you some best solution.

medicpole.com

Have you considered other food sources to get your choline? There a detailed database attached somewhere in this thread.

 

[Vanset]

Way does adding more eggs to my diet cause my mood to tank? Been feeling a bit 'off' since I started about a week ago. I'm having 2 eggs a day, no egg whites. I am also increasing meat intake - very slowly.

Eggs are a good food but far from perfect. Ovalbumin, ovomucoid, lysozyme, conalbumin, avidin and many, many more. All strong allergens. Most of them, contrary to conventional wisdom, are actually resistant to heat treatment that even 20 min of boiling doesn't make them budge. The choline itself can be a downer to a lot of people as well. Maybe you simply don't need them.

Vast majority of these problematic substances are in the white so it's probably the choline.

 

[InChristAlone]

People already get cholinesterase inhibitors in their diet their whole lives ("We are constantly exposed to low levels of CIs through the food we eat -- both from the residue of CI pesticides and from the naturally occurring CIs present in the tissues of many vegetables and fruits." Cholinesterase Inhibitors.)

Just getting choline to prevent Alzheimer's is overly simple. Have ya'll read any of Peat's articles? Here are just a few quotes helping you see it's more complicated than choline:
"Alzheimer's disease involves a specific premature loss of brain pregnenolone production, but not of thyroid. Recent work suggests a central role for pregnenolone and progesterone in the regulation of consciousness (18), and possibly in the brain's detoxifying system."

"Iron tends to accumulated in tissues with aging. Gajdusek has demonstrated that brain deterioration is associated with the retention of whatever metal happens to be abundant in the person's environment, not just with aluminum. (One type of glial cell is known for its metal-binding function, causing them to be called "metallophils."). According to Gajdusek, "calcium and other di- and trivalent elements" are "deposited as hydroxyapatites in brain cells" in brain degeneration of the Alzheimer's type.(19)"

"For many years it has been recognized that the brain atrophy of "Alzheimer's disease" resembles the changes seen in the brain in many other situations: The traumatic dementia of boxers; toxic dementia; the slow-virus diseases; exposure of the brain to x-rays (20); ordinary old age; and in people with Down's syndrome who die around the age of thirty. "

"Exposure to estrogen in middle-age increases the risk of Alzheimer's disease in old age, and that even medical progestogens offer some protection against it"

"The specific approaches of this orientation --to energize but quiet the brain--are diametrically opposed to some of the "therapies" for Alzheimer's disease that have been promoted recently by the drug industries: Things to increase stimulation, especially to increase cholinergic excitation; even the excitotoxic amino acids themselves and their analogs; and estrogen, which is a multiple brain excitant, proconvulsant, excitotoxic promoter, and anti-memory agent. Those product-centered publications stand out distinctly from the actual research.

• There are many energy-related vicious circles associated with aging, but the central one seems to be the fat-thyroid-estrogen-free-radical-calcium sequence, in which the ability to produce stabilizing substances including carbon dioxide and progesterone is progressively lost, increasing susceptibility to the unstable unsaturated fats."​

NO where in the articles mention getting enough choline.

​

"yeah actually I think that tendency with aging is to have too much, the shock reaction is for over a hundred years now that there's been evidence that over activity of the vagus nerve and the parasympathetic nerve system produces shock that it's a the essential factor in shock and this is the system that acts primarily through acetylcholine producing nitric oxide nitric oxide blocks oxygen metabolism so in shock your blood stays red and full of oxygen the tissue can't use it and that happens with aging heart failure kidney failure dementia all the tissues relatively have a shock-like metabolism that progresses with aging do you think there's any medical benefit or interest in increasing the breakdown of acetylcholine yeah that there are lots of therapeutic uses of things that blocked the over activity of acetylcholine and accelerated its turnover a rich environment increases the enzyme that breaks down acetylcholine so the environmental enrichment then would encourage the breakdown of acetylcholine."


"In inescapable stress, the stress hormones rather than pushing higher and higher on the cortisol and adrenaline direction to excite things run the heart of the faster rate the body shifts when it sees inability to escape it can simply switch gears and turn off that system and turn on the acetylcholine cholinergic system and the confinement inescapable stress which is the extreme of isolation the extreme opposite from enriched environment this turns on the cholinergic dominant system which lowers blood sugar and in consequence lowering the blood sugar activates histamine release. Some of the acetylcholine nerves such as vagus nerve amplified they're influence by releasing histamine which is it's very similar in its effects to acetylcholine so you can think of this kind of inescapable stress as turning on the histamine type of cholinergic action. A: so this this is really a kind of death situation this would be going towards death and away from life"


"The current and the last 20 years popular medical approach to treating Alzheimer's disease is to try to increase the level of production or persistence of acetylcholine by blocking the enzyme that breaks it down and they've demonstrated basically that it doesn't work and so they need a new fundamental theory but their theory is so mistaken it's hard for them to get off under this new line of drug treatment that's because the acetylcholine it's essential and part of our conscious regulating is needed for memory all kinds of biological processes required just the right amount of acetylcholine but it activates the enzyme that produces nitric oxide and nitric oxide blocks energy production and so the process of excitotoxicity which it made monosodium glutamate notorious because a little too much of that activates the production of a little too much acetylcholine and that makes too much nitric oxide nitric oxide poisons the ability to oxidize glucose to carbon dioxide so we get increases lactic acid and the cell has less energy and is more excited by the acetylcholine so basically as it becomes susceptible to dying in proportion to the overstimulation of acetylcholine."

 

[InChristAlone]

Way does adding more eggs to my diet cause my mood to tank? Been feeling a bit 'off' since I started about a week ago. I'm having 2 eggs a day, no egg whites. I am also increasing meat intake - very slowly.

Women make more choline, you probably don't need eggs if they cause depression.

 

[Peatness]

Women make more choline, you probably don't need eggs if they cause depression.

Thank you. I need to look into this. I wouldn't use the word depression, just irritated.

 

[David PS]

People already get cholinesterase inhibitors in their diet their whole lives ("We are constantly exposed to low levels of CIs through the food we eat -- both from the residue of CI pesticides and from the naturally occurring CIs present in the tissues of many vegetables and fruits." Cholinesterase Inhibitors.)

Just getting choline to prevent Alzheimer's is overly simple. Have ya'll read any of Peat's articles? Here are just a few quotes helping you see it's more complicated than choline:
"Alzheimer's disease involves a specific premature loss of brain pregnenolone production, but not of thyroid. Recent work suggests a central role for pregnenolone and progesterone in the regulation of consciousness (18), and possibly in the brain's detoxifying system."

"Iron tends to accumulated in tissues with aging. Gajdusek has demonstrated that brain deterioration is associated with the retention of whatever metal happens to be abundant in the person's environment, not just with aluminum. (One type of glial cell is known for its metal-binding function, causing them to be called "metallophils."). According to Gajdusek, "calcium and other di- and trivalent elements" are "deposited as hydroxyapatites in brain cells" in brain degeneration of the Alzheimer's type.(19)"

"For many years it has been recognized that the brain atrophy of "Alzheimer's disease" resembles the changes seen in the brain in many other situations: The traumatic dementia of boxers; toxic dementia; the slow-virus diseases; exposure of the brain to x-rays (20); ordinary old age; and in people with Down's syndrome who die around the age of thirty. "

"Exposure to estrogen in middle-age increases the risk of Alzheimer's disease in old age, and that even medical progestogens offer some protection against it"

"The specific approaches of this orientation --to energize but quiet the brain--are diametrically opposed to some of the "therapies" for Alzheimer's disease that have been promoted recently by the drug industries: Things to increase stimulation, especially to increase cholinergic excitation; even the excitotoxic amino acids themselves and their analogs; and estrogen, which is a multiple brain excitant, proconvulsant, excitotoxic promoter, and anti-memory agent. Those product-centered publications stand out distinctly from the actual research.

• There are many energy-related vicious circles associated with aging, but the central one seems to be the fat-thyroid-estrogen-free-radical-calcium sequence, in which the ability to produce stabilizing substances including carbon dioxide and progesterone is progressively lost, increasing susceptibility to the unstable unsaturated fats."​

NO where in the articles mention getting enough choline.

​

"yeah actually I think that tendency with aging is to have too much, the shock reaction is for over a hundred years now that there's been evidence that over activity of the vagus nerve and the parasympathetic nerve system produces shock that it's a the essential factor in shock and this is the system that acts primarily through acetylcholine producing nitric oxide nitric oxide blocks oxygen metabolism so in shock your blood stays red and full of oxygen the tissue can't use it and that happens with aging heart failure kidney failure dementia all the tissues relatively have a shock-like metabolism that progresses with aging do you think there's any medical benefit or interest in increasing the breakdown of acetylcholine yeah that there are lots of therapeutic uses of things that blocked the over activity of acetylcholine and accelerated its turnover a rich environment increases the enzyme that breaks down acetylcholine so the environmental enrichment then would encourage the breakdown of acetylcholine."


"In inescapable stress, the stress hormones rather than pushing higher and higher on the cortisol and adrenaline direction to excite things run the heart of the faster rate the body shifts when it sees inability to escape it can simply switch gears and turn off that system and turn on the acetylcholine cholinergic system and the confinement inescapable stress which is the extreme of isolation the extreme opposite from enriched environment this turns on the cholinergic dominant system which lowers blood sugar and in consequence lowering the blood sugar activates histamine release. Some of the acetylcholine nerves such as vagus nerve amplified they're influence by releasing histamine which is it's very similar in its effects to acetylcholine so you can think of this kind of inescapable stress as turning on the histamine type of cholinergic action. A: so this this is really a kind of death situation this would be going towards death and away from life"


"The current and the last 20 years popular medical approach to treating Alzheimer's disease is to try to increase the level of production or persistence of acetylcholine by blocking the enzyme that breaks it down and they've demonstrated basically that it doesn't work and so they need a new fundamental theory but their theory is so mistaken it's hard for them to get off under this new line of drug treatment that's because the acetylcholine it's essential and part of our conscious regulating is needed for memory all kinds of biological processes required just the right amount of acetylcholine but it activates the enzyme that produces nitric oxide and nitric oxide blocks energy production and so the process of excitotoxicity which it made monosodium glutamate notorious because a little too much of that activates the production of a little too much acetylcholine and that makes too much nitric oxide nitric oxide poisons the ability to oxidize glucose to carbon dioxide so we get increases lactic acid and the cell has less energy and is more excited by the acetylcholine so basically as it becomes susceptible to dying in proportion to the overstimulation of acetylcholine."

Thank you for your post. The issue with this thread is that it is focused on choline in the diet. It is reductionist.
Ray Peat has a much more wholistic understanding (of everything). I defer to his better judgement on matters like this.

I seem to remember that Ray eats an egg daily and that he suggests eat liver one a week. I can only assume that he knows about the need for dietary choline and is getting adequate amounts in his diet.

I eat more eggs than Ray and it seems we differ in the amount of dietary choline. I have gone years and perhaps decades without meeting the adequate intake for choline. I trust my body to use my dietary choline wisely and make the amount of acetylcholine that it requires to keep things running optimumly. I believe that it self adjusts and takes into consideration stress and toxins and the types of things that you identified.

I do not use supplements to increase my levels of choline or acetylcholine. I expect that supplements and pharmaceuticals will do more harm than good in the long run. I suspect that big pharma may already know this but because they have invested millions in obtaining FDA approval, they are not going to disclose anything that is against their monetary interest. They have no obligation to disclose harmful results and will act surprised when bad things happen. As I suggested in my Humpty Dumpty post above, I do not think that they work.

Diet is a personal choice. I tried to provide reference so that people who read this thread and make a more informed decision about their diet. When in doubt think about what Ray talks about. Thanks for the push back.

source


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[Grapelander]

Eating the eggs is fine - the cholesterol should actually serve a protective function.
Peat has a bigger issue with the protein in eggs - always warning to get OJ or enough sugar to help the liver.

Using a cholinesterase inhibitor for Alzheimer's is actually reductionist however.
Since they will not admit the role of aluminum - we get stuck with pharma theories to sell us products.

The energy protective comment above is spot on - using progesterone, thyroid, milk, sugar, thiamine and magnesium when taking stimulants.
When I use DMAE I am taking with magnesium carbonate, B vitamins and sugar.

 

[LLight]

Acetylcholine Regulates Pulmonary Pathology During Viral Infection and Recovery

This study was designed to explore the role of acetylcholine (ACh) in pulmonary viral infection and recovery. Inflammatory control is critical to recovery from respiratory viral infection. ACh secreted from non-neuronal sources, including lymphocytes, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

While further studies are needed to elucidate the full mechanistic understanding, ACh has shown to be a critical factor in post-influenza infection recovery. Cholinergic lymphocytes appear in the lungs and BAL lumen during the recovery phase of influenza and are found in direct physical contact with activated macrophages. Decreasing the ACh concentration results in extended morbidity, disordered tissue repair, and increased pulmonary inflammation. Together, these results indicate a previously unsuspected role for ACh in mediating pulmonary inflammation and efficient tissue repair during recovery from respiratory viral infection.

 

[LLight]

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J092v06n02_03

Some cases of ME may be found to have pesticide poisoning. The possibility of it should always be borne in mind. The source may be either in the UK or abroad. A positive enquiry and a single blood test will provide a diagnosis. Organochlorines may persist in the body for many years, as may the symptoms derived from them. A detoxification program based on oral administration of a choline and ascorbic acid mixture has shown much promise and deserves verification of its value.

It seems like this doctor prescribed these cases 3g/day of choline during the first month followed by 1.5g a day. Regarding ascorbic acid, it was 1.5g and then 750mg everyday. These doses are taken in three times everyday (so 1g, 3 times a day for the choline in the first phase).

 

[LLight]

Thank you. I need to look into this. I wouldn't use the word depression, just irritated.

I was wondering whether potassium intake could be related to the effect of choline on the nerves (I've seen some link between them).

Would you say your potassium intake is good currently?

 

[Peatness]

I was wondering whether potassium intake could be related to the effect of choline on the nerves (I've seen some link between them).

Would you say your potassium intake is good currently?

Yes my potassium intake is good. I meet the daily requirement daily.

 

[LLight]

Yes my potassium intake is good. I meet the daily requirement daily.

Perfect, thanks for your answer

 

[LLight]

It might not help everybody but it could be helpful for some (testimony of someone taking Alpha GPC, a form of choline, helped somehow by potassium):

tldr it’s still working. However, I started to reach a point where I was getting wired and irritated, and thankfully my methylfolate experience taught me that potassium is key when it comes to (upping) methylation. Drank a LOT of coconut water for the potassium and the mild euphoria came back and the stress went away. Very relaxed right now. Whether this is specific to my physiology or not, it works. Two Kirkland brand coconut water is about ~3500 mg potassium.

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/rc7jxj/alpha_gpc_mightve_just_done_it_for_me/

 

[InChristAlone]

It might not help everybody but it could be helpful for some (testimony of someone taking Alpha GPC, a form of choline, helped somehow by potassium):


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/rc7jxj/alpha_gpc_mightve_just_done_it_for_me/

He never updated after that. He might have died? Kinda joking, but he needs to be very cautious about excessive acetylcholine. The red flushing after drinking could be an indication his histamine is getting too high "acetylcholine causes the mast cells to release neurotransmitters such as histamine". Also he needs tons of potassium because excessive acetylcholine messes with potassium.
"By inhibiting AChE, acetylcholine is not broken down, this means a change in the electrical potential and thus changes the permeability of the membranes to sodium and potassium ions. If acetylcholine cannot be broken down quickly, spasms occur and ultimately paralysis of the striated muscles, which can lead to paralysis of the respiratory muscles." BChE Mangel - mycholinesterase

 

[Zsazsa]

He never updated after that. He might have died?

Considering the allergic reaction he had to alcohol, I would worry about his source of coconut water... If he was drinking bottled coconut water rather than fresh, the excess sulfites could be really detrimental to his allergic state.

 

[LLight]

He never updated after that. He might have died? Kinda joking, but he needs to be very cautious about excessive acetylcholine. The red flushing after drinking could be an indication his histamine is getting too high "acetylcholine causes the mast cells to release neurotransmitters such as histamine". Also he needs tons of potassium because excessive acetylcholine messes with potassium.
"By inhibiting AChE, acetylcholine is not broken down, this means a change in the electrical potential and thus changes the permeability of the membranes to sodium and potassium ions. If acetylcholine cannot be broken down quickly, spasms occur and ultimately paralysis of the striated muscles, which can lead to paralysis of the respiratory muscles." BChE Mangel - mycholinesterase

Yes maybe he was taking a bit too much. Otherwise he might just have packed his stuff and left Reddit because his medical issues were almost completely resolved.

 

[mm33]

1. DMAE and PABA – An Alternative to Gerovital (GH3), the “Romanian Youth Drug” (9/01/2001)

In Romania, Gerovital, or GH3, has been used for over 50 years to help people look and feel younger. It has attracted thousands of people each year to the spas of Romania and Western Europe where this therapy has been widely used. GH3 is a modification of the local anesthetic, procaine. It was developed for anti-aging uses by Professor Ana Aslan in Romania in the 1940s. The discovery of procaine's potential anti-aging properties was a serendipitous finding. Prof. Aslan was experimenting with the pain-relieving effects of procaine on patients with severe arthritis by injecting it into the arteries which supplied blood to the area of the affected joints. She logically theorized that procaine, being an anesthetic, would relieve the joint pain. She was surprised to find that in addition to dramatic relief of joint pains, many patients also noted (1) improved memory, (2) less depression, (3) more energy, (4) restoration of normal hair color, (5) improved skin tone, and (6) a generalized feeling of well-being.

When procaine enters the body, it is broken down into para-aminobenzoic acid (PABA, a para B-vitamin), and diethylaminoethanol (DEAE), both of which are naturally present in the body. Both of these substances are biologically active and have numerous beneficial effects of their own. Although the majority of the research involving Gerovital and Aslavital attribute the benefits to the procaine molecule, there is still controversy as to whether the effects are due to the procaine molecule itself, or to its breakdown products, PABA and DEAE.

PABA
One very interesting application for this versatile substance is its potential to restore hair to its natural color. In 1941, Dr. B. F. Sieve reported that administration of 200 mg of PABA per day for two months resulted in marked darkening of the hair in 30 patients with gray hair.

It has been well established that PABA is a potent neutralizer of singlet molecular oxygen, a potent free radical which is a common by-product of normal metabolism.

The crosslinkage theory of aging was proposed by Professor Johan Bjorksten in 1974. PABA appears to slow and in some cases even reverse crosslinking in the protein structures of connective tissues such as collagen.

DMAE
Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) is a substance that is closely related to DEAE.
DMAE is a mild cerebral stimulant, which was at one time approved by the FDA as being possibly effective for the following conditions:

1. Learning problems associated with underachieving and shortened attention span.
2. Behavior problems associated with hyperactivity.
3. Combined hyperkinetic behavior and learning disorders with underachieving, reading and speech difficulties, impaired motor coordination, and impulsive/compulsive behavior, often described as asocial, antisocial, or delinquent.

In 1958, Dr. Leon Oettinger, Jr., found that DMAE:

• Accelerated mental processes
• Improved concentration span
• Abolished early morning fogginess
• Relieved lassitude and mild depression with obvious letdown when it was discontinued
• Was useful in schizophrenia of long duration (with prolonged treatment)
• Decreased irritability and reduced overactivity, leading to a much better overall social adaptation and improved scholastic functioning
• Increased attention span
• Did not cause drowsiness
• Improved IQ!

Furthermore, he found that DMAE had numerous advantages over the amphetamines (like Ritalin) in that there were no effects on heart rate or blood pressure and no induced jitteriness. Instead of causing anorexia (loss of appetite) like the amphetamines, he found that DMAE actually improved appetite in many patients and caused no interference with sleep. In fact, he found that DMAE actually reduced sleep requirements.

In 1960, Dr. Stanley Geller reported on a double-blind study of 75 children, that DMAE in doses of 50 mg twice daily resulted in improved functioning capacity, puzzle-solving ability and organization of activity.

Kugel and Alexander reported that DMAE had also been demonstrated to be useful in the treatment of chronic fatigue and depression in children, and Sergin reported the phenomena of DMAE-induced lucid dreaming, and speculated on its effects in normalizing brain function and mood.

In 1974, Dr. Edith Miller added DMAE in doses ranging from 300-900 mg per day to the regimen of Parkinsons patients who had begun to exhibit adverse effects from high dosages of L-DOPA. DMAE administration resulted in a complete resolution of the L-DOPA-induced abnormal movements in a majority of the patients.

One of the most dramatic and well-documented effects of DMAE is its ability to inhibit the formation of aging pigment (lipofuscin).
DMAE not only can prevent the formation of lipofuscin, but it also actually flushes it from the body. Many people gauge the rate of lipofuscin removal from their hearts and brains by watching their liver spots disappear with long-term supplementation of DMAE. It usually takes about six months for significant changes to take place — many spots resolving completely.

Great info Grapelander thanks so much!

 

[Bootselectric]

Maybe I overdid it with 500mg Alpha GPC for 5 days, but I had the worst mood during those days. Agitated, aggressive, depressive most of the time.
Had to take Piracetam to relieve this. Horrible experience (at least for me).

 

[InChristAlone]

Maybe I overdid it with 500mg Alpha GPC for 5 days, but I had the worst mood during those days. Agitated, aggressive, depressive most of the time.
Had to take Piracetam to relieve this. Horrible experience (at least for me).

Not surprising, cholinergics are depressive. Peat believes the cholinergic system becomes more dominant as we age promoting cell death.

 

[Grapelander]

Important to remember appropriate dosing. Sometimes taking 1/10th the dose (or lower) is best.
Timing & Frequency. Is this something for morning - or work/school - or bedtime?
Is it better with a meal?
These are general questions we can figure out while we experiment.
Many complain about physical symptoms without doing the research.
At some point you'll either feel better or not - just like any relationship.