Children Drinking Whole Milk Are Leaner Than Ones Drinking Skim Or Low Fat Milk

[sladerunner69]

That’s not possible man... you can’t have 5g of PUFA when you only have 4g of fat overall you know?

Also Idk where you’re getting these numbers from that they add 30-100ml (1-3oz) of oil per gallon. That would be such a waste for them financially. Here is the reply I got from Wegman’s when I asked them awhile ago:

“Thank you for writing. We reached out to our Wegmans milk supplier to find out more about the vitamins used for you.


They use vitamins that are diluted in a mixture of water, propylene glycol, and polysorbate 80. The vitamins are added at their pasteurizer via a small pump. Vitamins are added at a rate of 1mL per 125 gallons.”

that sounds a lot more accurate than >50g of pufa per gallon. To add hte amount of vitamins listed on the container of lowfat milk, I would assume you would need microscopic amounts of fluid.

 

[sladerunner69]

I see what you're saying. A teaspoon is 4g so for it to have 5g of PUFA I assume is rounding. Tablespoon measures show a one-to-one. With that correction this would alter the range to 37.85g-113.55g of PUFA for a gallon of milk.

The issue with the change to polysorbate 80, and in other brands carrageenan, is that they increase gut permeability, feed endotoxin, and all ailments that stem from them. So that means increased serotonin, histamine, inflammation, etc. I assume you're right and the method I'm quoting is wasteful, thus these new methods. Since I last checked, the patent for the corn oil method hasn't been renewed or purchased by someone else so I think we can see less of that method as time goes on.

I'm going to sound like Ray during his small stories, but there was a week I changed half and half brand because the one I usually get is out. Didn't know anything about polysorbate 80. So I was surprised when just about every food started to give me allergic symptoms. I would later repeat the mistake with a Venom energy drink because my wife was trying to treat me and chose my favorite flavor not knowing what the ingredients were.

IMO the PUFA is actually preferable because even on the high end that's only about 1g an oz.

Well one gram of pufa per oz would be a gigantic amount. You could easily taste the difference between that and a normal glass of milk. If there was such a drink I would stay far away from it.

 

[LuMonty]

Well one gram of pufa per oz would be a gigantic amount. You could easily taste the difference between that and a normal glass of milk. If there was such a drink I would stay far away from it.

Sure, just pouring out some 2% in good lighting you can see the crap floating on top. And I don't disagree about staying away from PUFA. Since I got the amount wrong it's silly of me to try to "correct" this (it would have been per glass, not ounce) but I think with the studies below you can see what I mean that the emulsifiers are damaging to the point of taking slightly longer to become PUFA deficient seems reasonable in comparison. Both would be best avoided, naturally.

US5480661A - Vitamin A and D additive for milk products - Google Patents

It's embarrassing to admit but seeing as I was working on the whole gallon rather than the vitamin solution I would have to change my position anyways (because my starting point was so laughably bad) that the gut permeability from the formulations having polysorbate 80 (and friends) would be the cause of concern and that these emulsifiers (see below) are all "unlabeled" and thus a menace and should be avoided.

My knowledge is all second-hand and so I defer to Haidut posting here Emulsifiers Found In Most Commercial Foods Cause Brain Tumors, Hemorrhage, And Stroke

And an older post I'll quote here mainly for the study linked:

Emulsifiers are not looking good for intestinal health.

Dietary emulsifiers impact the mouse gut microbiota promoting colitis and metabolic syndrome. - PubMed - NCBI

Milk with added vitamins is probably the worst offender for emulsifiers in the Ray Peat world. The worst part is that apparently you don't have to include the emulsifier on the label for the product.

This is from the US Department of Health, Pasteurized Milk Ordinance:

"TYPE OF CONCENTRATES AVAILABLE
A number of different types of concentrates are available. All contain vitamin D and/or vitamin A palmitate with a carrier consisting of any of the following: butter oil, corn oil, evaporated milk, non-fat dry milk, polysorbate 80, propylene glycol and glycerol monooleate. It is best to store all concentrates under refrigeration unless manufacturer’s directions indicate otherwise. To achieve adequate dispersion, viscous concentrates should be brought to room temperature before addition."

On the milk label it just says: Vitamin A Palmitate, Vitamin D3. What a scam.

It's pretty convincing that if these emulsifiers are causing the precursor deranged metabolism that can become cancerous, metabolic syndrome itself, endotoxin translocation etc that would be a good additional answer as to why kids drinking whole milk are doing better.

It's good that my mistake was pointed out.

 

[sladerunner69]

Sure, just pouring out some 2% in good lighting you can see the crap floating on top. And I don't disagree about staying away from PUFA. Since I got the amount wrong it's silly of me to try to "correct" this (it would have been per glass, not ounce) but I think with the studies below you can see what I mean that the emulsifiers are damaging to the point of taking slightly longer to become PUFA deficient seems reasonable in comparison. Both would be best avoided, naturally.

US5480661A - Vitamin A and D additive for milk products - Google Patents

It's embarrassing to admit but seeing as I was working on the whole gallon rather than the vitamin solution I would have to change my position anyways (because my starting point was so laughably bad) that the gut permeability from the formulations having polysorbate 80 (and friends) would be the cause of concern and that these emulsifiers (see below) are all "unlabeled" and thus a menace and should be avoided.

My knowledge is all second-hand and so I defer to Haidut posting here Emulsifiers Found In Most Commercial Foods Cause Brain Tumors, Hemorrhage, And Stroke

And an older post I'll quote here mainly for the study linked:
It's pretty convincing that if these emulsifiers are causing the precursor deranged metabolism that can become cancerous, metabolic syndrome itself, endotoxin translocation etc that would be a good additional answer as to why kids drinking whole milk are doing better.

It's good that my mistake was pointed out.

Well done, I feel we are being constructive here. The concern with whole milk I would raise is the possibility that the manufacturers are still adding emulsifiers, albeit in lesser amounts. I know that here in california most whole milk I've come across has no vitamin A added, but still has added vit D. Earlier you stated that the palmitate is potentially toxic on its own, so at least we are avoiding that. But the vitamin D still must be mixed in emulsifiers to become soluble.

 

[LuMonty]

Well done, I feel we are being constructive here. The concern with whole milk I would raise is the possibility that the manufacturers are still adding emulsifiers, albeit in lesser amounts. I know that here in california most whole milk I've come across has no vitamin A added, but still has added vit D. Earlier you stated that the palmitate is potentially toxic on its own, so at least we are avoiding that. But the vitamin D still must be mixed in emulsifiers to become soluble.

Right on. I'm afraid to trust myself looking up the numbers atm but IIRC there is a minimum of A and D in general, so whole milk could still be fortified. Since all of the emulsifiers seem to have an issue, that means any fortification could be bad. It does seem like some are much worse than others but any caution is still warranted. The stuff I drink does have D3 added but I don't seem to get any issues from it. Doesn't mean it's not having a bad effect I can't trace though. I'd describe it as a trade-off more than a solution since it's still miles better than polysorbate and carrageenan. For me, I've made the personal choice to drink the milk I've chosen and will keep an eye out for future data. It's all I can do.

 

[Gone Peating]

Sure, just pouring out some 2% in good lighting you can see the crap floating on top. And I don't disagree about staying away from PUFA. Since I got the amount wrong it's silly of me to try to "correct" this (it would have been per glass, not ounce) but I think with the studies below you can see what I mean that the emulsifiers are damaging to the point of taking slightly longer to become PUFA deficient seems reasonable in comparison. Both would be best avoided, naturally.

US5480661A - Vitamin A and D additive for milk products - Google Patents

It's embarrassing to admit but seeing as I was working on the whole gallon rather than the vitamin solution I would have to change my position anyways (because my starting point was so laughably bad) that the gut permeability from the formulations having polysorbate 80 (and friends) would be the cause of concern and that these emulsifiers (see below) are all "unlabeled" and thus a menace and should be avoided.

My knowledge is all second-hand and so I defer to Haidut posting here Emulsifiers Found In Most Commercial Foods Cause Brain Tumors, Hemorrhage, And Stroke

And an older post I'll quote here mainly for the study linked:
It's pretty convincing that if these emulsifiers are causing the precursor deranged metabolism that can become cancerous, metabolic syndrome itself, endotoxin translocation etc that would be a good additional answer as to why kids drinking whole milk are doing better.

It's good that my mistake was pointed out.

“This oil based preparation has a potency of 200,000 I.U. Vitamin A and 40,000 I.U. Vitamin D3per milliter. The specific gravity is 0.9483. One milliter (ml) of the oil soluble mixture will fortify 100 quarts (approximately 100,000 ml) of milk, thus the product has a relative potency of approximately 1:100,000.”

Even in the link you posted it mentions that there is 1/25th of a ml of the vitamin and oil solution in each gallon based on these numbers. Even if they are using oil instead of water it’s not much to worry about.

The question is whether or not that small amounts of polysorbate 80 and propylene glycol are a big enough problem

 

[LuMonty]

“This oil based preparation has a potency of 200,000 I.U. Vitamin A and 40,000 I.U. Vitamin D3per milliter. The specific gravity is 0.9483. One milliter (ml) of the oil soluble mixture will fortify 100 quarts (approximately 100,000 ml) of milk, thus the product has a relative potency of approximately 1:100,000.”

Even in the link you posted it mentions that there is 1/25th of a ml of the vitamin and oil solution in each gallon based on these numbers. Even if they are using oil instead of water it’s not much to worry about.

The question is whether or not that small amounts of polysorbate 80 and propylene glycol are a big enough problem

Sladerunner caught that (thanks again to him) so we shifted gears to polysorbate 80. You can see up a few posts from here I posted some studies other members had posted previously.

 

[bistecca]

Except then wouldn't they have to include the pufa oil on the ingredients label? If they didn't they would be vulnerable to a lawsuit.

Hah i don't think so. I think if it's less than a half a gram of pufa per serving, they round down and can put zero. That's what I recall hearing somewhere.

 

[Luann]

Here is the reply I got from Wegman’s when I asked them awhile ago:

“Thank you for writing. We reached out to our Wegmans milk supplier to find out more about the vitamins used for you.


They use vitamins that are diluted in a mixture of water, propylene glycol, and polysorbate 80. The vitamins are added at their pasteurizer via a small pump. Vitamins are added at a rate of 1mL per 125 gallons.”

What exactly did you ask in the email, I'm thinking about doing this with a local grocery store

 

[Gone Peating]

What exactly did you ask in the email, I'm thinking about doing this with a local grocery store

I made up a story about how one of my friends got sick and thinks it might have been from something in the milk