Cellular Membrane Bilipid Layer, Pufa Fluidity, Triglyceride Repletion Of Pufa At Cellular Level Etc

Makrosky

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
3,982
If you think it’s hype then why do you spend time on here (a forum that advocates PUFA avoidance as much as is realistically possible) trying to convince people it is hype? Why not go to some other forum and tell them about how great you think PUFA is?

Ray Peat has written extensively about this and many have already gone over these topics on this forum. Ray Peat does not agree with a lot of the cell membrane theories espoused by those who think all PUFA is essential, etc.

Ray has mentioned that many of these countries eat relatively low calorie and when one eats low calorie, a lot of the effects of PUFA are mitigated because they are burned off and not stored.

However, continually burning PUFA for energy can have its own problems as it is not healthy to the mitochondria as well. Also, many of these countries have moved to a more modern diet and have left their more traditional diet and some of these diets were lower in PUFA. But in many of these counties the obesity rate over the last few decades and century had gone UP, NOT down. Even in large parts of Asia people are getting fatter. So you are using these countries to try to say PUFA isn’t bad but these countries have increasingly become more unhealthy over the last century so that actually wouldn’t give credence to your case but it would give more support to what Ray Peat says.
I just like this forum. **** off.
 

Waremu

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
532
Then what's your problem if I say what I want to say ? Doh..

I never said you can’t say what you want to say. I simply asked why do you waste your time on an anti-PUFA forum advocating PUFA. That’s silly. It’s like going to a vegan forum and trying to argue for the virtue of eating meat...
 

Makrosky

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
3,982
I never said you can’t say what you want to say. I simply asked why do you waste your time on an anti-PUFA forum advocating PUFA. That’s silly. It’s like going to a vegan forum and trying to argue for the virtue of eating meat...
Whatever... let's pay a little respect to the OP and don't spoil the thread.
 

Waremu

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
532
Whatever... let's pay a little respect to the OP and don't spoil the thread.


Should have thought about that before having your temper tantrum because I asked you a simple question.
 

Waremu

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
532
"simple question"... yeah... whatever.

The introduction was a simple and reasonable question given that the forums core stance has long been in agreement with Ray Peats Core message about PUFA..

I then transitioned to my point...
 

Makrosky

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
3,982
"my point"

"Ray has said this"
"Ray says that"

Your point... yeah...

Do you know the owner of the forum is right now in disagreement with most of what Ray says ? You are gonna ask him to go away also ?

My last reply to this conversation btw.
 

Waremu

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
532
I've been making great gains lately on a very low PUFA diet. Diet isn't everything when it comes to building muscle. For bulking it's about 50/50. I've consumed a lot of junk food when bulking in the past and I've thought my gains were good then, but now, being very low PUFA, my gains are so much better.
Stubborn belly fat can just be due to excess calories. Not everyone can speed up their metabolism and consume 4000 calories and stay shredded. This is just an example, and I'm not referring to you. I'm also not expecting myself to stay shredded when eating over 3000 calories. But since I've lowered PUFAs, cleaned out my gut, avoided starches, I'm feeling great, and getting leaner, building muscle faster, etc.
So what I'm trying to say, if your gains are really slow, maybe you need a different training program.

It's not impossible to get inflammation without PUFAs. One important thing is to displace the PUFAs in the cell membranes, even when on a low PUFAs diet, with stearic acid. Excess inflammation can also be caused by estrogen, cortisol, low thyroid, degenerated thymus and spleen, etc.

On another note, Travis mentioned that unsaturated fat is needed for glucose influx and if the cell membranes consisted mainly of saturated fat, glucose influx would be greatly reduced. I also read a study some time ago, which I cannot find anymore, that resistance exercise increases the amount of PUFAs in the cell membranes due to a greater need for glucose influx. But oleic and mead acid, which can be made in the body, could fulfill that need.

Just wondering, how low PUFA are you eating? I’ve been pretty low too...at about 0.5 grams per day.
 

Waremu

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
532
"my point"

"Ray has said this"
"Ray says that"

Your point... yeah...

Do you know the owner of the forum is right now in disagreement with most of what Ray says ? You are gonna ask him to go away also ?

My last reply to this conversation btw.

I haven’t seen him say explicitly that he disagrees without Ray Peat on most of what he says including PUFA. But if he is, why would I care? That’s his privilege to do what he wants. I never said people who disagree with Peat shouldn’t post here. I simply asked are you wasting your time arguing that PUFA isn’t bad when most of the people here (regardless of what the owner personally does) are limiting their PUFA in one way or another. Most people here may not agree on everything related to starch and dairy and what not, but I am pretty sure most limit their PUFA to the degree that they can as that again is one of Peats core ideas. Some eat starch, some don’t, but both groups still for the most part don’t go crazy on PUFA.
 

Hans

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
5,856
Just wondering, how low PUFA are you eating? I’ve been pretty low too...at about 0.5 grams per day.
The other day I was reading what you ate, with the skim milk, fruit juice and some red meat and occasional liver which is very similar to my diet. I'm currently doing only skim milk with sugar, fruit juice and gelatin, but I'm planning on adding lean ground beef back soon and maybe liver too. So I'm also under 1g daily.
 

CLASH

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Messages
1,219
@Captain_Coconut
I dont think your issues lies with PUFA per say. I think the opiate effect of dairy is what may be making you sluggish. Also, dairy is known to reliably put weight on people and the hormone content of dairy can possibly be an issue in my experience. I couldnt tolerate dairy well, and once I dropped it I felt much better overall (more energy, better libido, no more constipation, weight came right off). The next big step I made was increasing my total fat intake to 40-50% of calories from mostly beef tallow with some coconut oil/ intestinal discomfort. Too much cooconut oil gives me liver pain. I think a high amount of MCT may be a problem for some people. The long chain saturated and monounsaturated fatty acids seem to be much more tolerable, atleast for me. I think the level of PUFA avoidance here can be extreme but I do think avoidance is neccesary to some extent. Whats worked for me has been keeping PUFA at about 4g/2000 kcal with a >10:1 ratio of SAFA:PUFA, and some vit E supplementation.
 

Broken man

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
1,693
I must say that I feel with you captain coconut, the thing Is that pufa avoidance Is not effective way how to improve your health. I had success with my health after long time. Dont want to talk about the amount of money, stress and problems it all caused me. Its also reason why I dont understand why mitolipin isnt more important here when Its so good. If you struggle with bad gut like I was, try pineapple every day with threonine. Mitolipin helped me alot with Gut And hair problems like Travis said. The truth Is that if your TSH Is higher than 3,5. You Will have low Chance without thyroid.
 
OP
Captain_Coconut
Joined
Feb 26, 2018
Messages
988
I must say that I feel with you captain coconut, the thing Is that pufa avoidance Is not effective way how to improve your health. I had success with my health after long time. Dont want to talk about the amount of money, stress and problems it all caused me. Its also reason why I dont understand why mitolipin isnt more important here when Its so good. If you struggle with bad gut like I was, try pineapple every day with threonine. Mitolipin helped me alot with Gut And hair problems like Travis said. The truth Is that if your TSH Is higher than 3,5. You Will have low Chance without thyroid.

Thanks. Taking t3 actually did little for me. I already have very good temps. I have slow healing / recovery / bloat. It is either allegies or low grade infection. Surprisingly I have just dropped 4 pounds in just 3 days since cutting out all cheese, ice-cream, and muscle meat.. it is early to say but that is huge for me as my weight has not budged for a year. I know a lot was water weight, strangely I urinated like 5x my normal amount yesterday... Also my nasal passages are clearing up, they have been stuffy every morning for a year.

New daily diet staples, please don’t laugh, I know it may look crazy:

- Tang, 4 or 5 cups a day, with extra b and c vitamins added.
- As much celery and carrots as I want.
- As much raisins as I want.
- 2 eggs.
- Beans and rice, 2:1 ratio. With some butter and olive oil.
- A couple handfuls of almonds / peanuts.

This works out to just under 2000 calories a day, as I am trying to lose weight. Around 70% energy from carbs, 20% from fat, 10% from protein. Grams of mufa:sfa:pufa = 21:13:8

I decided to add nuts after having none for all of 2018, I know this puts my pufa a few grams higher than I had been keeping it but I think the vitamins and minerals and the satiety they add are worth it.
 
Last edited:

Cirion

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
3,731
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
There is a lot of serotonin fueled posts in this thread... anyway... my thoughts...

I just started restricting PUFA, and personally, I have already seen some immediate results. Certainly, it's no instant miracle as it takes time to deplete, but the first effects to be seen (at least for me) is an immediate reduction in random aches and pains like muscular pain / joint pains. I am coming in this with a different angle - I was gaining too much weight NOT being restrictive on PUFA's and whatnot, so now I'm getting serious about applying more of Ray's theories including carrot salt, PUFA avoidance, and dramatic increase of gelatin intake. The jury is still out whether or not this is the magic bullet... but I have seen some improvements.

I am definitely not an expert, but I think PUFA is only harmful if you are experiencing stress/have low GABA/have low energy (which are all basically the same thing). But basically everyone in the world is low thyroid (except remote places which detached from society at large) because of stressful environment, low quality food, etc. So that's why it's best to minimize PUFA, to lower the effect of inevitable stress of life.

Yes... I am no expert on PUFA's but there was an epic 60 page thread over in the Jack Kruse forums (Unfortunately, do not have the link handy) where there was a constant back and forth between Kruse, and some other members. One guy had VERY strong arguments why PUFA is not good for the average joe, but may be acceptable for healthy people. The long story short (skipping all the crazy complex biology he quoted), is that the potentially damaging effects of PUFA can generally be mitigated in a healthy organism but can not be in an unhealthy organism. The vast majority of people however are not healthy enough to handle PUFA's, thus, they're better off avoided. Also even if you can handle them, the jury is still out whether its a good idea to intake it. The only reason you'd even want to is the fact that some foods that have naturally occurring PUFA's CAN be beneficial (like eggs, nuts), maybe, but probably not for someone trying to deplete PUFA / regain health.

I think it must be aged dairy, ice cream (which I just learned is usually high in endotoxin), and or muscle meats as those are the last things I have yet to experiment with eliminating. I have been very lethargic after cheese and meat heavy meals. Going off of all supplements for a week or two has made little difference. I should add that I suspect basically keeping indigestible fiber to a minimum for all of 2018 was a mistake. I feel better with fiber.

Sounds like you're coming to the same conclusions I am, and I think its the tryptophan. How much gelatin do you eat? I'm starting to make gelatin one of my primary sources of protein, instead of a supplemental source, as a new experiment, and it has been treating me well. Trying to use even skim milk as my main protein source hasn't been going well, it's way too much tryptophan without balancing the amino acids with gelatin. So now I'm aiming for more like 50/50 from milk/gelatin. or at least 70/30. I noted my energy levels and moods have already improved upon doing this and eliminated my need for naps. And yeah I ditched all meats (Except for liverwurst 1-2x a week) and no more cheese or ice cream either as well.

I think serotonin is basically the antithesis to all things health, so anything to mitigate it can only help. Gelatin (glycine) is a strong antagonist to tryptophan which inhibits its conversion to serotonin. It is true that healthy people should be able to convert tryptophan into niacin, but many of us here are not blessed with good enough health to do this. And even so, I'm thinking it's still not optimal to get all your protein from tryptophan heavy proteins, while also being glycine poor.

I don't know if this might help, but I just read a Peat quote saying that sleeping less is way to lower serotonin/lethargy for hypothyroid people.

I have heard this, but had zero success doing it. Sleep is less restful when hypothyroid, because your glucose runs out quickly and continuing to rest while depleted may be detrimental. Even so, I find restricting my sleep is not helpful, I feel far worse doing this and unable to stay awake. I feel my best on weekends when I can sleep in 10 hr or so. So it has to be beneficial, if I ultimately feel better doing this. And on that note writing this message at 2 am on a day I have work the following morning.... fml lol

This works out to just under 2000 calories a day, as I am trying to lose weight. Around 70% energy from carbs, 20% from fat, 10% from protein. Grams of mufa:sfa:pufa = 21:13:8

I decided to add nuts after having none for all of 2018, I know this puts my pufa a few grams higher than I had been keeping it but I think the vitamins and minerals and the satiety they add are worth it.

2000 calories is very low man. What is your end-game goal? Health or weight? It's really easy to fall into the trap of trying to use weight loss to achieve health. I also have lots of weight I wish to lose, but I'd be kidding myself if I said I am even remotely healthy yet, so any attempt to drop calories (at least for me) is not going to do me any favors. Anyway, in a caloric deficit, you can achieve weight loss no matter what the macronutrient breakdown is (even if PUFA is included) and the PUFA will probably not be stored, so the effects of PUFA are going to be less. Which in fact is why so many people seemingly benefit from fasting. (Also endotoxin will naturally be lower as well). Basically I think fasting is a band-aid approach and doesn't get to the root of WHY things are not working right.

I think the main two-three things I wish to achieve before I even THINK about going back to the gym OR going on even a slight calorie deficit are:

- Perfect sleep (Waking up "refreshed" every day even on workdays), sleeping through the night
- Perfect temps (98.6F waking up every day, without fail - goes along with point #1)
- Perfect moods and energy levels (No mood swings, never feel need to nap in day)

I note you say you aren't seeing gains at the gym, this is a bad sign that your body is likely not ready for the level of activity you are putting forth. Any time I don't see gains in the gym, it means my health is faltering. Conversely, my best gains have come when I was at my best health. I currently don't train at all because of my health and am focusing on regaining that first. I don't think the gym is conducive to regaining health personally anymore, BUT light activity can be, especially if its outdoors in the sun and nature.

I definitely guarantee dropping calories to 2000 a day AND while still training is going to prove detrimental to your health.
 
Last edited:

Broken man

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
1,693
Thanks. Taking t3 actually did little for me. I already have very good temps. I have slow healing / recovery / bloat. It is either allegies or low grade infection. Surprisingly I have just dropped 4 pounds in just 3 days since cutting out all cheese, ice-cream, and muscle meat.. it is early to say but that is huge for me as my weight has not budged for a year. I know a lot was water weight, strangely I urinated like 5x my normal amount yesterday... Also my nasal passages are clearing up, they have been stuffy every morning for a year.

New daily diet staples, please don’t laugh, I know it may look crazy:

- Tang, 4 or 5 cups a day, with extra b and c vitamins added.
- As much celery and carrots as I want.
- As much raisins as I want.
- 2 eggs.
- Beans and rice, 2:1 ratio. With some butter and olive oil.
- A couple handfuls of almonds / peanuts.

This works out to just under 2000 calories a day, as I am trying to lose weight. Around 70% energy from carbs, 20% from fat, 10% from protein. Grams of mufa:sfa:pufa = 21:13:8

I decided to add nuts after having none for all of 2018, I know this puts my pufa a few grams higher than I had been keeping it but I think the vitamins and minerals and the satiety they add are worth it.
Man, you can aks peat or search for studies, T3 is the most important thing when it comes to healing, allergies and low grade inflammation. It is also important for mast cells. I think you tried low dose.
 
OP
Captain_Coconut
Joined
Feb 26, 2018
Messages
988
Man, you can aks peat or search for studies, T3 is the most important thing when it comes to healing, allergies and low grade inflammation. It is also important for mast cells. I think you tried low dose.

Actually I went all the way up to 150mcg. It did next to nothing for me.
 
OP
Captain_Coconut
Joined
Feb 26, 2018
Messages
988
There is a lot of serotonin fueled posts in this thread... anyway... my thoughts...

I just started restricting PUFA, and personally, I have already seen some immediate results. Certainly, it's no instant miracle as it takes time to deplete, but the first effects to be seen (at least for me) is an immediate reduction in random aches and pains like muscular pain / joint pains. I am coming in this with a different angle - I was gaining too much weight NOT being restrictive on PUFA's and whatnot, so now I'm getting serious about applying more of Ray's theories including carrot salt, PUFA avoidance, and dramatic increase of gelatin intake. The jury is still out whether or not this is the magic bullet... but I have seen some improvements.



Yes... I am no expert on PUFA's but there was an epic 60 page thread over in the Jack Kruse forums (Unfortunately, do not have the link handy) where there was a constant back and forth between Kruse, and some other members. One guy had VERY strong arguments why PUFA is not good for the average joe, but may be acceptable for healthy people. The long story short (skipping all the crazy complex biology he quoted), is that the potentially damaging effects of PUFA can generally be mitigated in a healthy organism but can not be in an unhealthy organism. The vast majority of people however are not healthy enough to handle PUFA's, thus, they're better off avoided. Also even if you can handle them, the jury is still out whether its a good idea to intake it. The only reason you'd even want to is the fact that some foods that have naturally occurring PUFA's CAN be beneficial (like eggs, nuts), maybe, but probably not for someone trying to deplete PUFA / regain health.



Sounds like you're coming to the same conclusions I am, and I think its the tryptophan. How much gelatin do you eat? I'm starting to make gelatin one of my primary sources of protein, instead of a supplemental source, as a new experiment, and it has been treating me well. Trying to use even skim milk as my main protein source hasn't been going well, it's way too much tryptophan without balancing the amino acids with gelatin. So now I'm aiming for more like 50/50 from milk/gelatin. or at least 70/30. I noted my energy levels and moods have already improved upon doing this and eliminated my need for naps. And yeah I ditched all meats (Except for liverwurst 1-2x a week) and no more cheese or ice cream either as well.

I think serotonin is basically the antithesis to all things health, so anything to mitigate it can only help. Gelatin (glycine) is a strong antagonist to tryptophan which inhibits its conversion to serotonin. It is true that healthy people should be able to convert tryptophan into niacin, but many of us here are not blessed with good enough health to do this. And even so, I'm thinking it's still not optimal to get all your protein from tryptophan heavy proteins, while also being glycine poor.



I have heard this, but had zero success doing it. Sleep is less restful when hypothyroid, because your glucose runs out quickly and continuing to rest while depleted may be detrimental. Even so, I find restricting my sleep is not helpful, I feel far worse doing this and unable to stay awake. I feel my best on weekends when I can sleep in 10 hr or so. So it has to be beneficial, if I ultimately feel better doing this. And on that note writing this message at 2 am on a day I have work the following morning.... fml lol



2000 calories is very low man. What is your end-game goal? Health or weight? It's really easy to fall into the trap of trying to use weight loss to achieve health. I also have lots of weight I wish to lose, but I'd be kidding myself if I said I am even remotely healthy yet, so any attempt to drop calories (at least for me) is not going to do me any favors. Anyway, in a caloric deficit, you can achieve weight loss no matter what the macronutrient breakdown is (even if PUFA is included) and the PUFA will probably not be stored, so the effects of PUFA are going to be less. Which in fact is why so many people seemingly benefit from fasting. (Also endotoxin will naturally be lower as well). Basically I think fasting is a band-aid approach and doesn't get to the root of WHY things are not working right.

I think the main two-three things I wish to achieve before I even THINK about going back to the gym OR going on even a slight calorie deficit are:

- Perfect sleep (Waking up "refreshed" every day even on workdays), sleeping through the night
- Perfect temps (98.6F waking up every day, without fail - goes along with point #1)
- Perfect moods and energy levels (No mood swings, never feel need to nap in day)

I note you say you aren't seeing gains at the gym, this is a bad sign that your body is likely not ready for the level of activity you are putting forth. Any time I don't see gains in the gym, it means my health is faltering. Conversely, my best gains have come when I was at my best health. I currently don't train at all because of my health and am focusing on regaining that first. I don't think the gym is conducive to regaining health personally anymore, BUT light activity can be, especially if its outdoors in the sun and nature.

I definitely guarantee dropping calories to 2000 a day AND while still training is going to prove detrimental to your health.

I will eat more when hungry, what I posted is a guideline. If I want an extra 1000 calories in raisins I can do that. I haven’t felt hungry on this guideline so far. I will work out again today and fingers crossed will see some gains. I get glycine via tmg. I used to take glycine but got better results from tmg. How do you feel now that you have cut out the meat and dairy?
 
Back
Top Bottom