Cautionary Tale / Eat Selenium

BibleBeliever

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I'm looking to add in pork kidney (20-35 grams) daily. Proper cooking and cutting up into squares and freezing; having some daily for extra selenium.

Pork, fresh, variety meats and by-products, kidneys, cooked, braised Nutrition Facts & Calories

I think on cronometer is says over 200% selenium per 35 grams. Consume a little piece with a piece of liver, an egg and a small oyster with buttered/sugared coffee, cheese and potatoes with a well cooked white button mushroom. Some maple syrup and honey too; a few grams of salt of course.

I bought a kidney before and didn't bother to look up the instructions for cooking. Just boiled and went to eat. Very bad idea, tasted like urine, disgusting.
Learned my lesson though, cook properly next time.
 

Amazoniac

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Effects of Selenium Deficiency on Tissue Selenium Content, Deiodinase Activity, and Thyroid Hormone Economy in the Rat during Development * | Endocrinology | Oxford Academic

"[..]in the adult rat, the effects of nutritional Se deprivation on the thyroid axis are relatively modest and seem to be limited to a few select tissues (17, 18). The most notable effects included a marked decrease (>90%) in hepatic and renal D1 activity (19) and protein (20) and a 40–50% increase in serum T4 concentration. Serum T3 and TSH levels and thyroidal D1 and brain D3 activities were largely unchanged (18, 21, 22). Brain D2 activity was decreased in these animals, but this was attributed to the down-regulating effects of the elevated circulating T4 level (23, 24), rather than to a direct effect of Se deficiency (22, 25). These findings have led to the suggestion that brain and thyroid contain mechanisms for local conservation of Se (22, 26, 27).
The impact of Se status on various clinical parameters is currently being investigated. For example, the plasma T3/T4 ratio is low in individuals prone to Se deficiency, such as the elderly (28), patients with phenylkenouria (29), and cystic fibrosis (30), and it normalizes upon Se supplementation (31). This may reflect Se-induced alterations in D1 activity."

A good aspect of selenium supplementation is that it's safe in terms of undesirable interactions with other trace minerals. However it needs to have adequate iodine around to prevent problems, so something to consider doing when in doubt is to supplement both in ratio of about 1:2.
 
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Amazoniac

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All there authors are talking about 'selenium,' but I've said repeatedly that only selenomethionine inhibits polyamine formation. There is a classic study (prospective) on selenomethionine and prostate cancer that had yielded a massive 70% reduction.

And the first quote makes me laugh, and reminds me of HIV research. Taking high levels of gluthatione peroxidase as a marker for selenium status is silly, and basically guarantees that selenium adequacy will often be conflated with 'oxidative stress' by some of them (as long as they are under the impression that 'high selenium' increases glutathione peroxidase levels, and not oxidative stress.)

Selenium research is so sloppy.
Travisord, how do you know if people are improving from selenomethionine mainly due to the effects on polyamines or selenium itself? I'm asking because your idea of supplementing 200 mcg of selenium a day would require 500 mcg of selenomethionine, but this is nothing if you consider that the lowest food sources already provide much more than that. Take an apfel for example (which is pretty low in methionid): 1.5 mg in a small fruit. And that's the amount in just a small fruit alone, now to have selenomethionine in enough amounts to substitute methionine in a significant way would require amounts that are un and realistic. But even if there was a way of doing so, how to assure that it's going to be directed to where you wanted it to be? If it's due to localized stress, then it would require selenocysteine (glutathione).

I was thinking about this after Obi of the wans mentioned a friend (I guess) improving prostate problems after being inspired by your ideas (!), also your post about broccoli (1/2 cup: 33 mg of methionid) and cancer.
 

Obi-wan

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Listening. I think we lost Travisord. He has not posted since Sunday. @Travis please come back...
 

Arrade

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All it needs are coconut products from Latin America, one analysis lists more than 1000 mcg of selenium per 100g of dried coconut. I can't find a source here in Europe but you in America should have options on this.
Is it in coconut oil?
 

raypeatclips

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I'm looking to add in pork kidney (20-35 grams) daily. Proper cooking and cutting up into squares and freezing; having some daily for extra selenium.

Pork, fresh, variety meats and by-products, kidneys, cooked, braised Nutrition Facts & Calories

I think on cronometer is says over 200% selenium per 35 grams. Consume a little piece with a piece of liver, an egg and a small oyster with buttered/sugared coffee, cheese and potatoes with a well cooked white button mushroom. Some maple syrup and honey too; a few grams of salt of course.

I bought a kidney before and didn't bother to look up the instructions for cooking. Just boiled and went to eat. Very bad idea, tasted like urine, disgusting.
Learned my lesson though, cook properly next time.

How's the kidney eating experiment going?
 

Travis

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Obi-wan

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(I hope he doesn't forget the fava beans.)
Yay! Travis is back! A week without Travis is like a week without sunshine. We had no sunshine last week
 
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Travis

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Travisord, how do you know if people are improving from selenomethionine mainly due to the effects on polyamines or selenium itself? I'm asking because your idea of supplementing 200 mcg of selenium a day would require 500 mcg of selenomethionine, but this is nothing if you consider that the lowest food sources already provide much more than that. Take an apfel for example (which is pretty low in methionid): 1.5 mg in a small fruit. And that's the amount in just a small fruit alone, now to have selenomethionine in enough amounts to substitute methionine in a significant way would require amounts that are un and realistic. But even if there was a way of doing so, how to assure that it's going to be directed to where you wanted it to be? If it's due to localized stress, then it would require selenocysteine (glutathione).

I was thinking about this after Obi of the wans mentioned a friend (I guess) improving prostate problems after being inspired by your ideas (!), also your post about broccoli (1/2 cup: 33 mg of methionid) and cancer.

You can find out yourself that selenium doesn't work as well as selenomethionine as there are studies using both of them. I am fairly convinced that anything that works so effectively for prostate cancer must be inhibiting polyamines, and I think the sum evidence basically proves this.
 

Amazoniac

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You can find out yourself that selenium doesn't work as well as selenomethionine as there are studies using both of them. I am fairly convinced that anything that works so effectively for prostate cancer must be inhibiting polyamines, and I think the sum evidence basically proves this.
But most studies compare the effects of inorganic forms with selenomethionine, which isn't fair because making selenium useful in the body is more demanding when you have to metabolize the inorganic forms, that's assuming that the dose is adequate.

There might be a way of comparing selenocysteine with selenomethionine: since the body excretes excess selenium from selenocysteine without much difficulty, you can get various indicators of selenium status and then add selenomethionid in amounts that leaves another group of people with similar indicators. After leveling them based on selenium need, you start adding more selenomethionid and any positive effects might be doing the derivings from something of the elses.
 

Travis

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But most studies compare the effects of inorganic forms with selenomethionine, which isn't fair because making selenium useful in the body is more demanding when you have to metabolize the inorganic forms, that's assuming that the dose is adequate.

There might be a way of comparing selenocysteine with selenomethionine: since the body excretes excess selenium from selenocysteine without much difficulty, you can get various indicators of selenium status and then add selenomethionid in amounts that leaves another group of people with similar indicators. After leveling them based on selenium need, you start adding more selenomethionid and any positive effects might be doing the derivings from something of the elses.

I think selenocysteine would have a higher threshold because it has a shorter side-chain and its sulfur analogue less metabolically-active. Methionine is important and can become polyamines, is widely used to chaperone methyl groups as S–adenosylmethionine, and forms the start codon for nearly every protein synthesized. Selenocysteine on the other hand is more of a structural protein, although it occurs in glutathione and can be used in trans-sulfuration (transthiolation)—perhaps making one wonder if selenocysteine can become selenomethionine by analogy, through trans-selenation?

'On the other hand, the latter seleno-amino acids are transformed to the same intermediate selenide through cleavage of the C–Se bond at the β position of SeCys, which is present either as a direct proteinase/peptidase product of selenoproteins, or after transformation from SeMet through the trans-selenation pathway similarly to the trans-sulfuration pathway for methionine (Met) to cysteine (Cys) (Birringer et al., 2002; Suzuki, 2005), as schematically shown in Scheme 1.' ―Suzuki⁽¹⁾
Of course it can, because L-selenoamino acids can do everything that sulfur amino acids can (besides form polyamines) and more; their side-chains are necessary for the catalytic domains of important enzymes such as glutathione peroxidase and iodothyronine deiodinase.

[1] Suzuki, K. "Metabolic transformation of methylseleninic acid through key selenium intermediate selenide." Toxicology and applied pharmacology (2006)

 

Amazoniac

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I think selenocysteine would have a higher threshold because it has a shorter side-chain and its sulfur analogue less metabolically-active. Methionine is important and can become polyamines, is widely used to chaperone methyl groups as S–adenosylmethionine, and forms the start codon for nearly every protein synthesized. Selenocysteine on the other hand is more of a structural protein, although it occurs in glutathione and can be used in trans-sulfuration (transthiolation)—perhaps making one wonder if selenocysteine can become selenomethionine by analogy, through trans-selenation?

'On the other hand, the latter seleno-amino acids are transformed to the same intermediate selenide through cleavage of the C–Se bond at the β position of SeCys, which is present either as a direct proteinase/peptidase product of selenoproteins, or after transformation from SeMet through the trans-selenation pathway similarly to the trans-sulfuration pathway for methionine (Met) to cysteine (Cys) (Birringer et al., 2002; Suzuki, 2005), as schematically shown in Scheme 1.' ―Suzuki⁽¹⁾
Of course it can, because L-selenoamino acids can do everything that sulfur amino acids can (besides form polyamines) and more; their side-chains are necessary for the catalytic domains of important enzymes such as glutathione peroxidase and iodothyronine deiodinase.

[1] Suzuki, K. "Metabolic transformation of methylseleninic acid through key selenium intermediate selenide." Toxicology and applied pharmacology (2006)
As you know from pboyology, when a nutrient is deficient, the first doses yield the most benefit and it starts to stabilize; if you increase further, the detrimental effects start to appear. It isn't different with selenium and this concept was ostensibly depicted elsewhere1.

As you also know, most human studies on cancer use exclusively L-selenomethionine, or at least one group of people being trialed with this form. As an astute reader, you must have noted that L-selenomethionine will first be prioritized to replenish selenium and only when there's an excess, it will start to replace L-methionine significantly. This contribution has been questioned above.

'nah, man, I dunno. I'm not vibing with it.' ―pboy

In this story, what perhaps you didn't realize is that if selenium is so non-toxic, posing no risks, and the main benefits come from the effects of L-selenomethionine on polyamines, not selenium itself, then it doesn't make sense to suggest such a conservative dose of 200 µg.d−1, you would expect that a dose close to the higher end of the safe range was being considered. However! This hasn't been the case.

It leaves us wondering what is up. It also leaves us wondering why those trials were discontinued had the effects been otherwise so remarkable and why the ones that benefited the most were dose that were deficient at the beginning.

What an expensive joke for mobile device, I guess I'm no longer qualified to be here after this tribute.

[1] Waters and Chiang. "Five threads: How U-shaped* thinking weaves together dogs, men, selenium, and prostate cancer risk." Free Radical Biology and Medicine (2018)
*Is this another 'in both mice and man'?
 
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Travis

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As you know from pboyology, when a nutrient is deficient, the first doses yield the most benefit and it starts to stabilize; if you increase further, the detrimental effects start to appear. It isn't different with selenium and this concept was ostensibly depicted elsewhere1.

As you also know, most human studies on cancer use exclusively L-selenomethionine, or at least one group of people being trialed with this form. As an astute reader, you must have noted that L-selenomethionine will first be prioritized to replenish selenium and only when there's an excess, it will start to replace L-methionine significantly. This contribution has been questioned above.

'nah, man, I dunno. I'm not vibing with it.' ―pboy

In this story, what perhaps you didn't realize is that if selenium is so non-toxic, posing no risks, and the main benefits come from the effects of L-selenomethionine on polyamines, not selenium itself, then it doesn't make sense to suggest such a conservative dose of 200 µg.d−1, you would expect that a dose close to the higher end of the safe range was being considered. However! This hasn't been the case.

It leaves us wondering what is up. It also leaves us wondering why those trials were discontinued had the effects been otherwise so remarkable and why the ones that benefited the most were dose that were deficient at the beginning.

What an expensive joke for mobile device, I guess I'm no longer qualified to be here after this tribute.

[1] Waters and Chiang. "Five threads: How U-shaped* thinking weaves together dogs, men, selenium, and prostate cancer risk." Free Radical Biology and Medicine (2018)
*Is this another 'in both mice and man'?

I don't see this as a deficiency syndrome in any way, but merely as a pharmacological device for inhibiting polyamine synthesis. I'd go one step further and state that anyone who currently believes this has something to do with inorganic selenium—as dissociated from selenomethionine (i.e. selenate, selenide)—hasn't read the Redman study:

 

Amazoniac

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I don't see this as a deficiency syndrome in any way, but merely as a pharmacological device for inhibiting polyamine synthesis. I'd go one step further and state that anyone who currently believes this has something to do with inorganic selenium—as dissociated from selenomethionine (i.e. selenate, selenide)—hasn't read the Redman study:

That's for cell culture in which the blood didn't have anything else to feed but hungry cancerous of the cells. I still don't understand how to direct selenomethionine to where you want it to in the body considering that the amount of 500 mcg is nothing compared to dietary methionine intake in a very restricted diet. If you think there is a way of doing so, that the benefits have little to do with selenium and that selenomethionine isn't toxic in high amounts, why not supplement in extremes instead of the conservative dose?
 

Travis

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That's for cell culture in which the blood didn't have anything else to feed but hungry cancerous of the cells. I still don't understand how to direct selenomethionine to where you want it to in the body considering that the amount of 500 mcg is nothing compared to dietary methionine intake in a very restricted diet. If you think there is a way of doing so, that the benefits have little to do with selenium and that selenomethionine isn't toxic in high amounts, why not supplement in extremes instead of the conservative dose?

The selenium atom will dissociate and it can be toxic in high amounts. Prospective cancer studies never achieve the same success with inorganic selenium as the do with selenomethionine, and I'd dare say that selenocysteine would be likewise less-effective. Selenomethionine is proven enzyme inhibitor, and enzyme inhibitors can inhibit enzymes at concentrations far smaller than the substrates they displace.

But I know that you only said that because you hadn't read the Redman study.

Plasma levels of selenomethionine increase over time upon supplementation, and the 800·μg per day dose should be safe even when the plasma becomes saturated. However, it should be possible to take twice that initially with only possible mild skin issues as a consequence. Long-term toxicological studies in non-human primates (Macaca sylvanus) indicate that 2000·μg per day should be safe—for an 80·kg human—in every way besides the possibility of the aforementioned side-effect.
 
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Amazoniac

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The selenium atom will dissociate and it can be toxic in high amounts. Prospective cancer studies never achieve the same success with inorganic selenium as the do selenomethionine, and I'd dare say that selenocysteine would be likewise less-effective. Selenomethionine is proven enzyme inhibitor, and enzyme inhibitors can inhibit enzymes at concentrations far smaller than the substrates they displace.

But I know that you only said that because you hadn't read the Redman study.
Of course I read, I'm not naïve to the point of replying to a post by Travisord without reading first. Don't get me wrong, I did find it interesting but those doubts for me right now are heavier than what they have proposed to be useful in practice, yet not heavier than heaven.
 

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