Cautionary Tale / Eat Selenium

[Amazoniac]

Thanks. You have been finding some really cool studies lately.

I guess I've been feeling pboy's energy around, he engraced us today..

 

[EIRE24]

Halibut for the selenium all day!!

 

[Amazoniac]

The guy has been posting some great content lately:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017...manage-your-selenium-status-and-how-to-do-it/
@haidut @healthnatura

I recently supplemented selenium and I feel so stupid for not trying it earlier, I was definitely deficient. I guess it's just like iodine: if you suspect a deficiency, even if you're not willing to supplement regularly, it's worth trying just to confirm the suspicion.
On the fifth day (200mcg/d, selenomethionine) the benefits stabilized (skin, intestines, some energy) and I had to diminish the frequency because it started to affect me negatively.

The cool thing about having some supplements around is because it's quite reassuring: it's much better to eat what you desire, instead of unappetizing foods just to "hit your micros". Eating because you want to, not because you have to.

I guess it's like one of those videos that men are willing to give a ride to the attractive girl, but have to deal with 15 relatives and their travel bags that come along.
Or the guy that has a fortune in his bank account, and despite never using it, he feels more confident because of it.

 

[Amazoniac]

Here's a study in which they found that people needed an addition of 50mcg/d to optimize a certain marker that's used as an indicator of optimal selenium levels, which requires a total of about 105mcg/d. It falls within the range supported by the study used for that previous graph.

Establishing optimal selenium status: results of a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial

higher selenium intakes from natural foods might be just as or even more beneficial than what was perceived with 105mcg/d.

The amount that Chris suggests to supplement in case your region is poor in selenium and you don't eat enough foods that concentrate it, is 100mcg every other day for maintenance. That's the same amount that this study found that optimized selenium functions.
He mentioned one of those cancer studies that found 95mcg and 120mcg for daily intakes for women and men to be the most protective. Which is very close to the numbers that we've been discussing here, not as a coincidence because he probably used similar if not the same studies. But it's good that the discussion seems to be on the right track..

Now let's all cross our fingers in hopes that Dan is following this thread.

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Selenium Supplement Reccomendations?

 

[jaa]

The amount that Chris suggests to supplement in case your region is poor in selenium and you don't eat enough foods that concentrate it, is 100mcg every other day for maintenance. That's the same amount that this study found that optimized selenium functions.
He mentioned one of those cancer studies that found 95mcg and 120mcg for daily intakes for women and men to be the most protective. Which is very close to the numbers that we've been discussing here, not as a coincidence because he probably used similar if not the same studies. But it's good that the discussion seems to be on the right track..

Now let's all cross our fingers in hopes that Dan is following this thread.

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Selenium Supplement Reccomendations?

That was a good podcast!

Which Selenium product did you go with after? The best one I could find was Thorne's

 

[Amazoniac]

That was a good podcast!

Which Selenium product did you go with after? The best one I could find was Thorne's

I used Bluebonnet's, but there are probably better ones.
Codanugh.

Quite a responsibility owa your shoulders, isn't it, Dan?

 

[Amazoniac]

Ray suggested 200mcg once or twice a week if you need.
Twice a week will provide the amount that was suggested here.

But I opted for 200mcg to minimize excipients, you can dump half of it and save the rest for another day..

 

[haidut]

Ray suggested 200mcg once or twice a week if you need.
Twice a week will provide the amount that was suggested here.

But I opted for 200mcg to minimize excipients, you can dump half of it and save the rest for another day..

I think the full recommendation was 200mcg daily for the first week to replenish stores and then 200mcg a few times a week as maintenance.

 

[Amazoniac]

Yeah, it's linked above..

Selenium Supplement Reccomendations?

 

[Amazoniac]

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: BlueBonnet Selenium Vegetarian Capsules, 200 mcg, 90 Count
Starch And Fat ?
That's why a company needs integrity. And it's not that those details don't count, but it's that principle of pressuring that forces the industry to mask stuff and look for the easier route.
I think that haidut experienced something similar with thiamine.

 

[Rand56]

Interesting what Masterjohn said in his podcast about selenium's bioavailability in seafood is only about half of what it is in other animal products.

 

[Amazoniac]

I had these two studies saved related to selenium supplementation and the intestines:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.585.9543&rep=rep1&type=pdf (chickens)
http://www.thejaps.org.pk/docs/v-26-02/12.pdf (goats)

Besides proliferative effect, Se might have, at least in part, protective effects on villi to increase its size. Previous studies have shown that mice fed high Se diet have higher enzyme activities which help in detoxification including glutathione peroxidase (GSH-Px) (Rao et al., 2001). Selenium has been shown to exert protective effect on intestine experimentally infected with retrovirus in chicken (Read-Synder et al., 2009).

Intestine transfers nutrients required for growth, maintenance and production in animals. The peripheral flow of nutrients from intestine depends upon the surface area provided by the villi lining the interior intestinal wall. In the current study, increase in villi length and width led to increase in mucosal surface area by 36.2 and 62.48% in duodenum and jejunum of SY [selenium-yeast] fed goats compared to control. Consistent with our findings, previous studies have shown Se feeding increased villi size and thus surface area in the small intestine (Read-Synder et al., 2009 and Sara et al., 2011). The increase in mucosal surface area in duodenum and jejunum suggests an increase in absorption rate of nutrients from the small intestine. Moreover, the proportional mucosal weight is an index of energy consumption and thus flow of nutrients to the periphery. Higher the proportion of mucosa to muscle higher would be the rate of nutrient flow because most of the energy is consumed by epithelial cells rather than muscle cells (Johnson et al., 1990; Baldwin, 1999; Malhi et al., 2013).

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But I opted for 200mcg to minimize excipients, you can dump half of it and save the rest for another day..

I forgot to mention that the brand that I used has a 100mcg version, but the 200mcg has less excipients: it wasn't related to the amount, but with the number of excipients.

 

[I_am]

Do you guys ever suspect that supplement/vitamin's are a scam? OR at the very least suspect they may not be entirely safe? I have a hard time buying into it, is all..most, if not all that I have ever purchased have said not approved or inspected by the FDA, and I haven't found myself experiencing results of what they claim.

 

[pboy]

interesting question...for nearly 3-4 years + minus the occasional ascorbic acid in a bottled tea or something rarely I ate nothing fortified or no supplements...then came in the vit A and D in milk which kind of grossed out by the vit D now that I think or when I thought about it, but basically this last or a few months back life got in flux and juice was a key thing on the go but nutrients kept falling short and out of balance so I over the course used bunch of supplements and basically cause I track things so I knew what was what and all that...I think technically they do 'act like the' vitamin or mineral meaning you wont be weakened by the deficiency in the same way of absence of it does, but they aren't the same as food nutrients for sure...its like a kind of hazy potentially estrogenic place holder...they were casuing various effects depending but overall I think most supplements have estrogenic effects and basically just create a sort of gross feeling instead of the real thing, or a 'weighty' or just something being a bit off feeling, but they do apparently place hold and prevent deficiency but its like a bionic version of the real thing. Selenium was particularly foul...btw id open all the capsules or take drops straight to taste and sense the effect...I basically felt gross and sinful when id take most of the supplements in the sense of impure, though they did again alleviate deficiencies but dunno I almost got to the point where id rather wait and correct it with a food or herb than take the supplement on the spot...I can use will to stabilize against deficiencies, seems more noble than taking something potentially befouling, but basically they did have value in the learning sense but I dunno ultimately I dumped them all

and yea to comment on selenium I'm pretty sure as a vegan I was deficient at various times but it wasn't as noticeable, I think the more metabolism / stress / motivation / overall fire there is the worse it is to get low in, its like a sinking feeling not just weakness. Its for someone who wont eat meat, harder to get than others...surprisingly grains for the most part have a lot so most people aren't deficient at all probably in selenium its more if you go out on a limb diet wise or try to get it better...it ultimately becomes something to consider, its real important, and guess you don't notice it until its actually low cause for most people I suspect even on a peat diet get enough, considering that most here seem to opt for the high protein side...then many lower carb vegetarians are eating grains...I guess its like people eating lot of fruit and veg that would even have to consider it. I find it interesting how humans require rather large amounts of selenium...I guess animals in nature get it through the sheer amount of leaves they eat but like apes...its hard to imagine they get even close to as much as humans...cause most fruit has near none and leaves are usually just like in bulk barely or just over or under adequate, and apparently they rarely if ever eat insects or seed and things...just a curious observation, but that could be why they live more in the tropics where its warm most of the time, getting def in selenium is a huge metabolic let down from optimum

 

[I_am]

interesting question...for nearly 3-4 years + minus the occasional ascorbic acid in a bottled tea or something rarely I ate nothing fortified or no supplements...then came in the vit A and D in milk which kind of grossed out by the vit D now that I think or when I thought about it, but basically this last or a few months back life got in flux and juice was a key thing on the go but nutrients kept falling short and out of balance so I over the course used bunch of supplements and basically cause I track things so I knew what was what and all that...I think technically they do 'act like the' vitamin or mineral meaning you wont be weakened by the deficiency in the same way of absence of it does, but they aren't the same as food nutrients for sure...its like a kind of hazy potentially estrogenic place holder...they were casuing various effects depending but overall I think most supplements have estrogenic effects and basically just create a sort of gross feeling instead of the real thing, or a 'weighty' or just something being a bit off feeling, but they do apparently place hold and prevent deficiency but its like a bionic version of the real thing. Selenium was particularly foul...btw id open all the capsules or take drops straight to taste and sense the effect...I basically felt gross and sinful when id take most of the supplements in the sense of impure, though they did again alleviate deficiencies but dunno I almost got to the point where id rather wait and correct it with a food or herb than take the supplement on the spot...I can use will to stabilize against deficiencies, seems more noble than taking something potentially befouling, but basically they did have value in the learning sense but I dunno ultimately I dumped them all

Wow, I can totally relate to feeling gross and sinful part! I always felt like my intuition was telling me "nope, this is bad, you don't need this, get it from food and nature, more harm than good" etc. Even before learning of a few studies that confirmed some vitamin brands were totally bs'ing people, particularly those that come from China (but doesn't China BS us on everything? ;-)) I had these feelings.

I have seen a documentary or two on this as well, it's been a while though, they were on Netflix I believe..so yea I dumped them also and after observing alot of people on this forum take them, I am second guessing myself, ugh. Round and round we go on the "what is truly healthy" merry go round...

I mean, if "time" as we know it, is Earth based and ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things...then who can tell us "oh you need this vitamin/mineral every single day, 24 hour period" or else. When I stop buying into "time", I noticed my mind starts to change my needs and I can tell my cells what they need..it's hard to explain and maybe a bit crazy.

 

[Amazoniac]

interesting question...for nearly 3-4 years + minus the occasional ascorbic acid in a bottled tea or something rarely I ate nothing fortified or no supplements...then came in the vit A and D in milk which kind of grossed out by the vit D now that I think or when I thought about it, but basically this last or a few months back life got in flux and juice was a key thing on the go but nutrients kept falling short and out of balance so I over the course used bunch of supplements and basically cause I track things so I knew what was what and all that...I think technically they do 'act like the' vitamin or mineral meaning you wont be weakened by the deficiency in the same way of absence of it does, but they aren't the same as food nutrients for sure...its like a kind of hazy potentially estrogenic place holder...they were casuing various effects depending but overall I think most supplements have estrogenic effects and basically just create a sort of gross feeling instead of the real thing, or a 'weighty' or just something being a bit off feeling, but they do apparently place hold and prevent deficiency but its like a bionic version of the real thing. Selenium was particularly foul...btw id open all the capsules or take drops straight to taste and sense the effect...I basically felt gross and sinful when id take most of the supplements in the sense of impure, though they did again alleviate deficiencies but dunno I almost got to the point where id rather wait and correct it with a food or herb than take the supplement on the spot...I can use will to stabilize against deficiencies, seems more noble than taking something potentially befouling, but basically they did have value in the learning sense but I dunno ultimately I dumped them all

and yea to comment on selenium I'm pretty sure as a vegan I was deficient at various times but it wasn't as noticeable, I think the more metabolism / stress / motivation / overall fire there is the worse it is to get low in, its like a sinking feeling not just weakness. Its for someone who wont eat meat, harder to get than others...surprisingly grains for the most part have a lot so most people aren't deficient at all probably in selenium its more if you go out on a limb diet wise or try to get it better...it ultimately becomes something to consider, its real important, and guess you don't notice it until its actually low cause for most people I suspect even on a peat diet get enough, considering that most here seem to opt for the high protein side...then many lower carb vegetarians are eating grains...I guess its like people eating lot of fruit and veg that would even have to consider it. I find it interesting how humans require rather large amounts of selenium...I guess animals in nature get it through the sheer amount of leaves they eat but like apes...its hard to imagine they get even close to as much as humans...cause most fruit has near none and leaves are usually just like in bulk barely or just over or under adequate, and apparently they rarely if ever eat insects or seed and things...just a curious observation, but that could be why they live more in the tropics where its warm most of the time, getting def in selenium is a huge metabolic let down from optimum

You're probably right, mostly because you're never wrong. But in my opinion there's also the other side of the story.
I acknowledge the concern of excess and unnecessary supplementation; and that the more supplements you take, the harder it is to not cause problems. But their bad reputation comes mostly from those that misuse them or use poor quality ones, which is not uncommon.

Also not uncommon is finding native populations that have characteristic deficiencies linked to their region that could be easily corrected with a single nutrient. Iodine for example, supplementation with no downsides as far as I know. It just exemplifies how being an extremist (I don't touch anything that's marrymenow synthetic, or anything derived from animals, or anything that's not organic, and so on) often does more harm than good, because you limit yourself unnecessarily, forcing you into this sort of primitive scarcity; you start to associate things with your identity and you don't allow yourself to take just what's useful from everywhere.
Trying to attenuate the effect of a recognized deficiency with will is an example of putting morals over needs.

The point is: finding (even if temporarily) the next best is an art that all of us that have danwichism had to learn the hard way. Those that reach supplements are the ones that for whatever reason couldn't get what they needed from food, or decided to avoid objectionable/low-quality foods. And if a food is objectionable, it just means that despite having what you need, it might have many things that you might not need; just like the ride to the attractive girl that I mentioned above. All in all, it's still part of your teachings of intuition..

 

[Amazoniac]

Nutrition for Women:

[..]it is simply unscientific to say that supplements aren't necessary when "well balanced" meals are eaten. At a symposium for pharmacists, the "professional dietitians" were arguing that druggists should not sell any nutritional supplements without a prescription. A woman in the audience pointed out that most Americans don't take the time to prepare three "well balanced" meals every day, and that they just won't be well-nourished if they don't take some kind of supplement. The dietitian snickered "I am defeated," but went on with her plea that the druggists stop selling supplements, with the strong implication that she couldn't argue with such irrational opponents.
Individual peculiarities and stress can make it extremely difficult to stay healthy on a normal diet; however, if meals of liver, broccoli leaves and oysters and papaya can be considered normal, then supplements might generally be unnecessary.

If supplements are necessary, don't use them excessively — find what is enough, but don't forget the contaminants and adulterants which may be present in pills, capsules and powders.

 

[Amazoniac]

Prestigious and prodigious, I was actually trying to find something for you, it's Ray commenting about the body having difficulty dealing with some very pure substances. Perhaps it was one of those interviews with Danny. If someone knows, please share..

 

[EIRE24]

You're probably right, mostly because you're never wrong. But in my opinion there's also the other side of the story.
I acknowledge the concern of excess and unnecessary supplementation; and that the more supplements you take, the harder it is to not cause problems. But their bad reputation comes mostly from those that misuse them or use poor quality ones, which is not uncommon.

Also not uncommon is finding native populations that have characteristic deficiencies linked to their region that could be easily corrected with a single nutrient. Iodine for example, supplementation with no downsides as far as I know. It just exemplifies how being an extremist (I don't touch anything that's marrymenow synthetic, or anything derived from animals, or anything that's not organic, and so on) often does more harm than good, because you limit yourself unnecessarily, forcing you into this sort of primitive scarcity; you start to associate things with your identity and you don't allow yourself to take just what's useful from everywhere.
Trying to attenuate the effect of a recognized deficiency with will is an example of putting morals over needs.

The point is: finding (even if temporarily) the next best is an art that all of us that have danwichism had to learn the hard way. Those that reach supplements are the ones that for whatever reason couldn't get what they needed from food, or decided to avoid objectionable/low-quality foods. And if a food is objectionable, it just means that despite having what you need, it might have many things that you might not need; just like the ride to the attractive girl that I mentioned above. All in all, it's still part of your teachings of intuition..

Do you supplement iodine?

 

[Amazoniac]

Life forms that are not served iron from rusted nails as entrée and humans for main course,
Tetanus bacteria;

"50 mcg selenium as selenomethionine/day orally" for both:

Effect of selenium supplementation on thyroid hormone metabolism in an iodine and selenium deficient population - Contempré - 2008 - Clinical Endocrinology - Wiley Online Library

"It is interesting to note that inhibition of deiodinase I in selenium deficiency impedes the catabolism of thyroid hormones, diminishes the iodide loss by the kidney, and thus involves a thyroid hormone and iodine economy which, together with a possible increased hormone synthesis in the thyroid gland, could lessen the importance of the iodine deficiency. This has very practical consequences in combined iodine and selenium deficient areas, especially for the pregnant woman and the fetus who could be, in case of selenium deficiency, protected against iodine deficiency and brain damage (Contempre et ul., 1991b).
In this case, selenium supplementation alone could involve a more complex change in thyroid metabolism than was foreseen previously and should not be undertaken without concomitant iodine supplementation, at least until further studies are undertaken, since the indiscriminate use of selenium supplements might exacerbate, rather than improve, the situation."

--
EFFECT OF SELENIUM SUPPLEMENTATION IN HYPOTHYROID SUBJECTS OF AN IODINE AND SELENIUM DEFICIENT AREA : THE POSSIBLE DANGER OF INDISCRIMINATE SUPPLEMENTATION OF IODINE-DEFICIENT SUBJECTS WITH SELENIUM | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic
In cretins, which are more vulnerable to variations. The authors commented that their glands are usually fibrosed and since a selenium supplementation enhances thyroid hormone activity, it exhausts more rapidly their limit iodine reserves. Confirming this observation with the fact that supplementing both minerals is enough to improve the situation.

"[..]intense stimulation of the thyroid gland is a feature of all endemia [neurological and myxedematous cretinism] and thyocyanate overload or iodine deficiency are only slightly worse in northern Idjwi, where endemic cretinism is prevalent, than in South Idjwi where it is not.(3)."
Which reinforces the previous quote.

"[..]selenium deficiency protects against some consequences of iodine deficiency but that correcting selenium deficiency before improving the iodine status of the patient would be expected to be unwise or even dangerous."

"[..]thyroid status became worse after two months selenium supplementation: the mean serum T4 fell while the mean serum TSH increased significantly[.]"

"[..]these results suggest a deterioration of the thyroid function. Considering the results of selenium supplementation, it was decided for ethical reasons to discontinue the trial and not to extend the sample of patients investigated."

"CASE REPORT: One of the normal schoolchildren received selenium for six months and because of an administrative error made by the family, failed to receive iodine after two months like all the other subjects. His thyroid parameters were initially T4: 7.7 nmol/1, FT4: 0.13 pmol/l, T3: 1.3 nmol/1, TSH: 114 mU/l. And after six months selenium supplementation, T4: 1.3 nmol/1, FT4: 0.13 pmol/l, T3: 0.92 nmol/1, TSH: 163 mU/l."

"We do not know what would have happened in normal schoolchildren after a prolonged selenium supplementation (more than two months) without concomitant iodine supplementation; but supported by the case report, we suspect that it would lead to progressive decompensation of thyroid function. In this case, the indiscriminate introduction of selenium supplementation in these regions, in which selenium deficiency could be an important public health problem, could aggravate rather than improve the situation for both children with borderline hypothyroidism and for fetuses of pregnant mothers. Selenium supplementation should therefore only follow iodine supplementation."

"[Howeva,] in a severe iodine deficiency area, selenium deficiency seems to mitigate the severity of the iodine deficiency in the global population, and could protect the fetus against brain damage and neurological cretinism, but would favour thyroid destruction and myxoedematous cretinism."

--
One of the authors:
Error encountered - PubMed - NCBI