CARNIVORES vs VEGETARIANS

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“One thing that happens in the vegetable diet, heavily based on [the] cabbage family, or beans, lentils and nuts, these proteins, in quality, rank about 15 times lower than the highest quality protein." -Ray Peat

Oh the great debate, carnivores verses the plant eaters. There came a time when I decided to bond with my, tender hearted, son and get to know the vegetarian cause. It felt good to maybe save a couple of cows in my lifetime, cumulatively speaking, all by myself. I really lived it too, as I was never fond of meat really anyways. Now I could focus on saving the planet one piece of buttered toast with jelly at a time. Yeah sometimes I felt my cause asked me to deny myself, like a visit to a Mexican restaurant, when I couldn't even eat the beans because they were cooked in lard, and all I walked away with was a bowl of chips and salsa and some rice. Calling ahead for the menu everywhere was my stategy, and many times I would have to pack a cooler with my own food to parties. After a few months of it, a look in the mirror on vacation gave me a horrific view of the most cellulite I had ever had on my legs. This was my reward, after I had been so devoted, eating all those pots of beans topped with cheddar, sour cream, fresh Jalapenos and sweet onion? The realization set in that I had eaten all those vegetarian pizzas, tofu topped Thai noodles and big salads for nothing! I realized at that cellulite moment, I could sacrifice no more, and became a Pescatarian. I rationalized fish didn't have too many feelings, and so I would now have to make my semi-sacrifice eating spicy mayo laden sushi rolls and tartar sauce dipped fish & chips. I was doing good for the planet and that was important. God knows I tried!

After a year of it, and thoroughly brainwashed into the disgust of flesh, I was the worst version of myself ever! I finally made the announcement, I had to save myself, I was going back to eating the way I knew I should be eating. It wasn't easy to return to normal, as I continually visualized consuming flesh and feelings. I still have a conscience about that.

Many years forward, I know I made the right decision. I now support my animal friends, by spending the extra money to support a more humane life for animals raised for our food supply, by buying pasture raised and grass fed meats, and I am grateful to them for my good health.

Are we meant to be meat eaters? I believe so. Besides our bodies being a "temple of God", and needing to be the salt of the earth, we are part of a food chain. We are allowed to eat meat and we are expected to eat crickets if need be. We are not suppose to be glutinous, wasteful or ungrateful.

I watch a survival show called Naked & Afraid, and this particular episode was the best comparison i have ever seen as to how the vegetarian and meat eating diets compare. Usually you see a fat person losing tons of weight being a vegetarian, supposedly proving the vegetarian's point. I like this comparison where a longtime active vegetarian comes into the challenge with her soft body and an active meat eater comes in with his muscular body and the two continue on their respective paths. They both lost close to the same amount of weight, with her eating her plant matter and him forcing down undesirable proteins. The challenge was for two weeks and neither of them was particularly active during the challenge, trying to conserve energy because food was scarce.The before and after pictures tell the rest of the story.
 

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OP
Rinse & rePeat
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"Poor people, especially in the spring when other foods were scarce, have sometimes subsisted on foliage such as collard and poke greens, usually made more palatable by cooking them with flavorings, such as a little bacon grease and lots of salt. Eventually, "famine foods" can be accepted as dietary staples. The fact that cows, sheep, goats and deer can thrive on a diet of foliage shows that leaves contain essential nutrients. Their minerals, vitamins, and amino acids are suitable for sustaining most animal life, if a sufficient quantity is eaten. But when people try to live primarily on foliage, as in famines, they soon suffer from a great variety of diseases. Various leaves contain antimetabolic substances that prevent the assimilation of the nutrients, and only very specifically adapted digestive systems (or technologies) can overcome those toxic effects." -Ray Peat
 

Saba

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I've been vegetarian for almost two years now, for my love of animals, and it is during this time that my thyroid supplements started working well. It could be a coincidence, I'll fully grant.

I think the key thing about being vegetarian or vegan is to pay attention to your protein intake (plus mushrooms). I pretty much organize my meals around that, and I also make sure to drink lots protein shakes, which I make with orange juice, so that I consume almost a carton of OJ every day. I make sure to add to those shakes extra glycine and proline, in roughly the same proportion in which they are found in gelatin. I also make sure to eat shellfish (bivalves) at least once a week, preferably more often.

I'm the healthiest I've been since my 20s, and I feel the best I've ever felt. I'm in my 40s. If I didn't organize my eating around protein, I have not doubt I would not be healthy. Since it's been under two years, I suppose in the long-term things could change for me. But so far so good.

For my dog, I have gone the route same as you @Rinse & rePeat - I buy pasture-raised meat (poultry) from farms as humane as I can find them. I used to eat meat from the same farms, but I decided to stop and see how it goes, and since it's been going so well, it's only my dog that gets to eat the meat now. She's a large dog and definitely eats enough meat for both of us!

I hope you don't take this as criticism, @Rinse & rePeat. I went the humane meat route for almost 20 years before I decided to try this experiment, and I'm not judging. I justified eating humane meat by thinking that as long as animals have a good life, it's not that bad if they die because we all have to die sometime. I still think that's a fairly rational way of looking at it. I just finally became uncomfortable with animals dying specifically for me, and I decided to try and see if I could apply Ray Peat's principles to a vegetarian (almost vegan) diet, and luckily it seems to be working out. I get that it's not an easy diet to follow. Also, if protein powder suddenly became unavailable, and I could no longer boost my protein intake through protein shakes, I'm not sure what I would do. It seems that it's only modern technology and easily accessible modern food and supplement options that are making this lifestyle be possible for me.
 
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I've been vegetarian for almost two years now, for my love of animals, and it is during this time that my thyroid supplements started working well. It could be a coincidence, I'll fully grant.

I think the key thing about being vegetarian or vegan is to pay attention to your protein intake (plus mushrooms). I pretty much organize my meals around that, and I also make sure to drink lots protein shakes, which I make with orange juice, so that I consume almost a carton of OJ every day. I make sure to add to those shakes extra glycine and proline, in roughly the same proportion in which they are found in gelatin. I also make sure to eat shellfish (bivalves) at least once a week, preferably more often.

I'm the healthiest I've been since my 20s, and I feel the best I've ever felt. I'm in my 40s. If I didn't organize my eating around protein, I have not doubt I would not be healthy. Since it's been under two years, I suppose in the long-term things could change for me. But so far so good.

For my dog, I have gone the route same as you @Rinse & rePeat - I buy pasture-raised meat (poultry) from farms as humane as I can find them. I used to eat meat from the same farms, but I decided to stop and see how it goes, and since it's been going so well, it's only my dog that gets to eat the meat now. She's a large dog and definitely eats enough meat for both of us!

I hope you don't take this as criticism, @Rinse & rePeat. I went the humane meat route for almost 20 years before I decided to try this experiment, and I'm not judging. I justified eating humane meat by thinking that as long as animals have a good life, it's not that bad if they die because we all have to die sometime. I still think that's a fairly rational way of looking at it. I just finally became uncomfortable with animals dying specifically for me, and I decided to try and see if I could apply Ray Peat's principles to a vegetarian (almost vegan) diet, and luckily it seems to be working out. I get that it's not an easy diet to follow. Also, if protein powder suddenly became unavailable, and I could no longer boost my protein intake through protein shakes, I'm not sure what I would do. It seems that it's only modern technology and easily accessible modern food and supplement options that are making this lifestyle be possible for me.

No criticism taken Saba. If you are eating shellfish then wouldn't you consider yourself a Pescatarian? I only lasted about 4 months being a vegetarian before I had stop cellulite madness. I was Pescatarian for the rest of that year and I think that is a natural reasonable diet for me. I have access to good fresh fish, but many people don't and having their health decline trying to save animal doesn't make sense, people need to be their best selves for their children, mates and family. I would have continued to be a Pescatarian if it weren't for the heavy metals and histamine issues they caused me. I am lucky to have access to grass fed raw milk because I can't drink pasteurized, so in the place I am at now I can see being a Pescatarian again. The point I was making is how different plant protein and animal proteins plays out in a body. If I decided to be a pescatarian again I would be limited to dairy, fish and some fruit because I will never go back to grains and vegetables again, and protein powder and other packaged foods would put me back into Histamine Intolerance again. I wont even partake in added daily gelatin for the same reason. To each his own, as I am criticizing vegetarian, but my bod was not strong as as a vegetarian and neither is this survival traing gal in the picture I posted in the beginning of this post. She was much weaker than he was in the challenge, weaving baskets and sitting a lot, while her male counterpart did all the heavy lifting and collected most of the firewood, AND she came into the challenge with a higher PR ranking than he did.
 
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"Many types of phytochemicals are mutagenic, and some of those are carcinogenic. Bruce Ames, at the University of California, devised a method of screening for mutagens, using bacteria. One of his graduate students using the technique found that the flame retardants in children's pajamas and bedding were powerful mutagens, and were probably causing cancer. That event made Ames a celebrity, and in the 1980s he went on a lecture tour supported by the American Cancer Society. His lectures reflected the doctrine of the A.C.S., that industrial chemicals aren't responsible for cancer, but that individual actions, such as smoking or dietary choices, are the main causes of cancer. He used a fraudulently "age adjusted" graph of cancer mortality, that falsely showed that mortality from all types of cancer except lung cancer had leveled off after the A.C.S. came into existence. He described tests in which he had compared DDT to extracts of food herbs, and found DDT to be less mutagenic than several of the most commonly used flavoring herbs. His message, which was eagerly received by his audience of chemistry and biology professors, was that we should not worry about environmental pollution, because it's not as harmful as the things that we do to ourselves. He said that if everyone would eat more unsaturated vegetable oil, and didn't smoke, they wouldn't have anything to worry about.

For me, the significance of his experiment was that plants contain natural pesticides that should be taken more seriously, without taking industrial toxins less seriously.

Technologies have been invented to convert vegetation into digestible protein, but at our present scientific and technological level, it’s better to simply minimize our use of the more toxic foods, and to direct more effort toward the elimination of the conditions that produce famine.

Animal proteins, and fruits, because they contain the lowest levels of toxins, should form the basis of the diet. Not all fruits, of course, are perfectly safe--avocados, for example, contain so much unsaturated fat that they can be carcinogenic and hepatotoxic." -Ray Peat
 

Saba

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No criticism taken Saba. If you are eating shellfish then wouldn't you consider yourself a Pescatarian? I only lasted about 4 months being a vegetarian before I had stop cellulite madness. I was Pescatarian for the rest of that year and I think that is a natural reasonable diet for me. I have access to good fresh fish, but many people don't and having their health decline trying to save animal doesn't make sense, people need to be their best selves for their children, mates and family. I would have continued to be a Pescatarian if it weren't for the heavy metals and histamine issues they caused me. I am lucky to have access to grass fed raw milk because I can't drink pasteurized, so in the place I am at now I can see being a Pescatarian again. The point I was making is how different plant protein and animal proteins plays out in a body. If I decided to be a pescatarian again I would be limited to dairy, fish and some fruit because I will never go back to grains and vegetables again, and protein powder and other packaged foods would put me back into Histamine Intolerance again. I wont even partake in added daily gelatin for the same reason. To each his own, as I am criticizing vegetarian, but my bod was not strong as as a vegetarian and neither is this survival traing gal in the picture I posted in the beginning of this post. She was much weaker than he was in the challenge, weaving baskets and sitting a lot, while her male counterpart did all the heavy lifting and collected most of the firewood, AND she came into the challenge with a higher PR ranking than he did.
Many people who are otherwise vegan eat bivalves because they do not have a central nervous system. There's no word for it that I know of. Pescatarian implies eating seafood in general, almost all of which has a central nervous system. Dr. Peat has spoken about the benefit of eating oysters, mussels, clams (sounds like all bivalves, though I think he also mentioned shrimp) for the copper and selenium, from what I recall, plus he said you get the benefit of eating the whole animal. So I think it's different enough from what pescatarian implies. But I'm not particular about what people want to name my diet.

Whether someone is vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian or eats meat, it's important to pay attention to the amino acid balance in the protein being consumed to stay in good health. Most people who eat meat eat way too much muscle meat, though I know it doesn't apply to people on this forum. When I ate meat the Peaty way, I pretty much only ever ate meat that I cooked in a sauce that I could dump many tablespoons of gelatin into, for the favorable amino acid balance. Now I try to recreate that with a plant-based diet, done in as Peaty a way as possible. I think it's entirely possible, maybe even highly likely, that if someone doesn't understand Peaty principles of good nutrition, it's easier to wing it by just eating meat and other animal products. The reason I'm not saying it's definitely better to eat meat is that most people today are eating sick animals from CAFOs, which profit from selling meat from sick and fat animals who eat the cheapest, most thyroid-suppressive food that makes the animals express stress hormones, including estrogen, and in some cases these animals are actually injected with estrogen implants:


I think if someone is relying on this kind of sick animal protein, and I am relying on mostly organic plant proteins, and I follow Peaty principles as closely as I can, I think someone like me has an excellent shot at being at least healthier than most people, or healthy enough. I guess I'll see as time goes on. I'm also relatively young. Only time will tell if I can keep this up when I'm older.

I also realize that my diet is not for people who have a lot of sensitivities, like Dr. Peat, and can't rely on supplements. So I get that Peat himself could not follow my plant-based without a ton of effort being put into getting the right nutrition from food as opposed to supplements (e.g., calcium). Then again, he has spoken about a group of people somewhere who only got to ate meat once a year, and they were healthy. I don't recall which group this was or what they ate (I want to say they ate pork once a year and maybe potatoes/tubers largely for the rest of year). Again, I'm sure it would be hard for us in the U.S. to recreate their diet, and it would take a lot of effort. For the average person who doesn't understand nutrition, or for someone who understands nutrition but can't or doesn't want to have their life revolve around satisfying their nutritional requirements through plant-based food, animal proteins are the far better bet, yes. If you are eating protein from grass-fed animals, and meat from grass-fed and grass-finished animals without eating too much muscle meat as compared to gelatin, then yes, that is the best possible bet. My decision to eat plant-based is for the animals, not for me. I'll keep it going as long as my health stays as good as it has been recently. If I had the ability to keep my own chickens for the eggs, I would consider that, but I don't see that in my future any time soon.
 
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Many people who are otherwise vegan eat bivalves because they do not have a central nervous system. There's no word for it that I know of. Pescatarian implies eating seafood in general, almost all of which has a central nervous system. Dr. Peat has spoken about the benefit of eating oysters, mussels, clams (sounds like all bivalves, though I think he also mentioned shrimp) for the copper and selenium, from what I recall, plus he said you get the benefit of eating the whole animal. So I think it's different enough from what pescatarian implies. But I'm not particular about what people want to name my diet.

Whether someone is vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian or eats meat, it's important to pay attention to the amino acid balance in the protein being consumed to stay in good health. Most people who eat meat eat way too much muscle meat, though I know it doesn't apply to people on this forum. When I ate meat the Peaty way, I pretty much only ever ate meat that I cooked in a sauce that I could dump many tablespoons of gelatin into, for the favorable amino acid balance. Now I try to recreate that with a plant-based diet, done in as Peaty a way as possible. I think it's entirely possible, maybe even highly likely, that if someone doesn't understand Peaty principles of good nutrition, it's easier to wing it by just eating meat and other animal products. The reason I'm not saying it's definitely better to eat meat is that most people today are eating sick animals from CAFOs, which profit from selling meat from sick and fat animals who eat the cheapest, most thyroid-suppressive food that makes the animals express stress hormones, including estrogen, and in some cases these animals are actually injected with estrogen implants:


I think if someone is relying on this kind of sick animal protein, and I am relying on mostly organic plant proteins, and I follow Peaty principles as closely as I can, I think someone like me has an excellent shot at being at least healthier than most people, or healthy enough. I guess I'll see as time goes on. I'm also relatively young. Only time will tell if I can keep this up when I'm older.

I also realize that my diet is not for people who have a lot of sensitivities, like Dr. Peat, and can't rely on supplements. So I get that Peat himself could not follow my plant-based without a ton of effort being put into getting the right nutrition from food as opposed to supplements (e.g., calcium). Then again, he has spoken about a group of people somewhere who only got to ate meat once a year, and they were healthy. I don't recall which group this was or what they ate (I want to say they ate pork once a year and maybe potatoes/tubers largely for the rest of year). Again, I'm sure it would be hard for us in the U.S. to recreate their diet, and it would take a lot of effort. For the average person who doesn't understand nutrition, or for someone who understands nutrition but can't or doesn't want to have their life revolve around satisfying their nutritional requirements through plant-based food, animal proteins are the far better bet, yes. If you are eating protein from grass-fed animals, and meat from grass-fed and grass-finished animals without eating too much muscle meat as compared to gelatin, then yes, that is the best possible bet. My decision to eat plant-based is for the animals, not for me. I'll keep it going as long as my health stays as good as it has been recently. If I had the ability to keep my own chickens for the eggs, I would consider that, but I don't see that in my future any time soon.

The 4 years my son was a vegetarian killed his health, especially kidneys. He dumped oxalates for several months after he gave it up. His was frail and very underweight. Though he still doesn't eat a lot of meat, and I only buy grass fed beef and lamb and corn and soy free pastured chicken eggs, he has put on 20 pounds of muscle and looks strong and healthy again now. I don't blame you for leaning into the plant matter, I so wish I could because enjoy salads, potatoes and such, much more than meat.
 

Saba

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The 4 years my son was a vegetarian killed his health, especially kidneys. He dumped oxalates for several months after he gave it up. His was frail and very underweight. Though he still doesn't eat a lot of meat, and I only buy grass fed beef and lamb and corn and soy free pastured chicken eggs, he has put on 20 pounds of muscle and looks strong and healthy again now. I don't blame you for leaning into the plant matter, I so wish I could because enjoy salads, potatoes and such, much more than meat.
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure your son meant well. I think oxalates were not something that were common knowledge, even in the health community, until somewhat recently. I try not to eat them much. I actually don't eat green salads at all. I eat fruit salads in a savory way - actual fruit with seed-free cucumbers, or tomatoes and cucumbers, both of which are technically fruit. I add a touch of olive oil and some vinegar, usually balsamic, and it's close enough to eating what we are used to thinking of as a salad. I miss the greens sometimes, particularly arugula, but I adjusted.

Interestingly, I also naturally preferred the vegetarian foods to meat. I cooked meat because most recipes call for meat and I cooked from recipes, but I always enjoyed the vegetarian foods more, and when I first started listening to Peat's advice, I had to force myself to eat more animal protein, against my cravings. Kind of strange that we don't always crave what we actually need.
 
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I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure your son meant well. I think oxalates were not something that were common knowledge, even in the health community, until somewhat recently. I try not to eat them much. I actually don't eat green salads at all. I eat fruit salads in a savory way - actual fruit with seed-free cucumbers, or tomatoes and cucumbers, both of which are technically fruit. I add a touch of olive oil and some vinegar, usually balsamic, and it's close enough to eating what we are used to thinking of as a salad. I miss the greens sometimes, particularly arugula, but I adjusted.

Interestingly, I also naturally preferred the vegetarian foods to meat. I cooked meat because most recipes call for meat and I cooked from recipes, but I always enjoyed the vegetarian foods more, and when I first started listening to Peat's advice, I had to force myself to eat more animal protein, against my cravings. Kind of strange that we don't always crave what we actually need.

I love arugula! I just ordered some for a little accent to meals next week. I never ate beef until I became pregnant with my first son at 28, then I craved it. I was always so underweight and an unhealthy before having my first son. I had extreme hair breakage, and could never grow long hair, and my skin was a mess until after I had my son and upped my meat . Of course I wasn't eating fruit and vegetables either, mostly dairy and starches. I am glad now to be off starches and love my dairy again!
 

Saba

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I love arugula! I just ordered some for a little accent to meals next week. I never ate beef until I became pregnant with my first son at 28, then I craved it. I was always so underweight and an unhealthy before having my first son. I had extreme hair breakage, and could never grow long hair, and my skin was a mess until after I had my son and upped my meat . Of course I wasn't eating fruit and vegetables either, mostly dairy and starches. I am glad now to be off starches and love my dairy again!
That's interesting that your hair improved, even before you found Dr. Peat.

My hair, even when eating meat almost every day, was also pretty frail and would not grow long at the nape of my neck. I recently noticed that it is back to its high school quality, with the hair at the nape of my neck the same as the rest of my hair. Sometimes I hold it up in my hand and I still can't believe it's my hair. I attribute it to thyroid and Progest-E. Probably whatever improves your hormonal balance improves your hair.
 
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That's interesting that your hair improved, even before you found Dr. Peat.

My hair, even when eating meat almost every day, was also pretty frail and would not grow long at the nape of my neck. I recently noticed that it is back to its high school quality, with the hair at the nape of my neck the same as the rest of my hair. Sometimes I hold it up in my hand and I still can't believe it's my hair. I attribute it to thyroid and Progest-E. Probably whatever improves your hormonal balance improves your hair.

My breakage was in the back, so the front would grow fine, but the back breakage had me always having to cut the front all of to match the back length. The texture of my hair improved after "Peating' being softer now. I think getting grains out of my diet, was probably what stopped my breakage, as it gave me more room for the proteins.
 
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What happened to "Banana Girl"?!!
 

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I've been vegetarian for almost two years now, for my love of animals, and it is during this time that my thyroid supplements started working well. It could be a coincidence, I'll fully grant.

I think the key thing about being vegetarian or vegan is to pay attention to your protein intake (plus mushrooms). I pretty much organize my meals around that, and I also make sure to drink lots protein shakes, which I make with orange juice, so that I consume almost a carton of OJ every day. I make sure to add to those shakes extra glycine and proline, in roughly the same proportion in which they are found in gelatin. I also make sure to eat shellfish (bivalves) at least once a week, preferably more often.

I'm the healthiest I've been since my 20s, and I feel the best I've ever felt. I'm in my 40s. If I didn't organize my eating around protein, I have not doubt I would not be healthy. Since it's been under two years, I suppose in the long-term things could change for me. But so far so good.

For my dog, I have gone the route same as you @Rinse & rePeat - I buy pasture-raised meat (poultry) from farms as humane as I can find them. I used to eat meat from the same farms, but I decided to stop and see how it goes, and since it's been going so well, it's only my dog that gets to eat the meat now. She's a large dog and definitely eats enough meat for both of us!

I hope you don't take this as criticism, @Rinse & rePeat. I went the humane meat route for almost 20 years before I decided to try this experiment, and I'm not judging. I justified eating humane meat by thinking that as long as animals have a good life, it's not that bad if they die because we all have to die sometime. I still think that's a fairly rational way of looking at it. I just finally became uncomfortable with animals dying specifically for me, and I decided to try and see if I could apply Ray Peat's principles to a vegetarian (almost vegan) diet, and luckily it seems to be working out. I get that it's not an easy diet to follow. Also, if protein powder suddenly became unavailable, and I could no longer boost my protein intake through protein shakes, I'm not sure what I would do. It seems that it's only modern technology and easily accessible modern food and supplement options that are making this lifestyle be possible for me.
Vegetarian and vegan are way different. With a vegetarian diet you still get some quality protein and fat soluble vitamins.
 

zwez

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Almost all carnivores have a similar look to their face. Redish in color, watery, with a lack of sharpness or definition and a roundness similar to Crushing's Syndrome - probably due to elevated cortisol.
 
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Almost all carnivores have a similar look to their face. Redish in color, watery, with a lack of sharpness or definition and a roundness similar to Crushing's Syndrome - probably due to elevated cortisol.

Carnivores as in big meat eaters? Because I eat meat and I don't look anything like you descibe. When I went on the Blood Type Diet 10 years ago I had to eat more meat and it got rid of my long face.
 
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"So, apart from the question of exactly what molecules were responsible for the learning transfer produced by McConnell and Ungar, there should be no doubt that polyamines derived from food can enter tissues, especially the brain. People who eat meat from stressed animals are substantially replicating the experiments of McConnell and Ungar, except that people normally eat a variety of foods, and each type of food will have had slightly different experiences in its last days of life. But the deliberate aging of meat is subjecting it to a standardized stress--two or three weeks of cold storage. Because of the great generality of genetic processes, it wouldn't be surprising if cold storage of vegetables turned out to produce polyamine patterns similar to those of cold storage meats. Air pollution and other stressful growing conditions cause vegetables to have very high levels of polyamines." -Ray Peat
 

Blossom

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Although we are omnivores by nature I think each of us has our own unique needs. I personally do best closer to the carnivore end of the dietary spectrum but respect that is not the case for everyone. I believe my ancestry may be part of the reason but the bigger part is the modern assaults that impacted my gut. I know if I did not eat the way I do I would not be unable to hold down a full time job and enjoy a decent quality of life. I am sincerely and genuinely thankful for all the animals that have and continue to provide the nourishment I need to thrive and do my little part in this world.
 
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Although we are omnivores by nature I think each of us has our own unique needs. I personally do best closer to the carnivore end of the dietary spectrum but respect that is not the case for everyone. I believe my ancestry may be part of the reason but the bigger part is the modern assaults that impacted my gut. I know if I did not eat the way I do I would not be unable to hold down a full time job and enjoy a decent quality of life. I am sincerely and genuinely thankful for all the animals that have and continue to provide the nourishment I need to thrive and do my little part in this world.

I am with you, that even though I am not a meat lover, it seems to make a better me. I am losing weight more easily with raw milk and lots of sugar, but I feel that the shellfish, liver and bone broth makes my skin and face shape look younger and firmer than the milk alone and muscle tone too.
 

Jennifer

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Vegetarian and vegan are way different. With a vegetarian diet you still get some quality protein and fat soluble vitamins.

I agree.

A vegetarian can be just as healthy as a carnivore. Just because vegetables, legumes, grains, nuts and seeds are vegetarian doesn’t mean all vegetarians consume them, and just because someone is vegetarian doesn’t mean they consume less animal protein than those who consume meat. I consume a vegetarian diet, but also far more animal protein than those around me who eat meat, and as much animal protein as many men more than twice my size. My muscle definition and body composition are far greater with dairy than with meat/seafood, likely because it’s less catabolic to my body. Unlike dairy, meat crashes my blood sugar and triggers stress hormones so it seems to me that whether meat is beneficial or not is highly individual. I will say, however, that I don’t believe vegan and vegetarian diets are automatically more ethical than diets that include meat, but that’s a whole other discussion.
 

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