"Carnivore MD" Jumping On The "Carbs Aren't The Issue" Bandwagon

[Korven]

...Soon Paul Saladino will be sipping coffee w/ milk and sugar and painting naked women.

Jokes aside, I think there some interesting takeaways from him introducing large amounts of fructose to his purely carnivorous diet - especially considering that he has gotten blood work done to track markers + CAC scan.

Apparently he has introduced honey to his diet due to hypothyroid symptoms and is eating 250 grams per day now. His LDL score has increased to a massive 533 mg/dL... yet still his coronary artery calcium scan is zero.

Some excerpts from a recent interview:

"And I was getting cramps and a lot of people in ketogenic, low carb communities will experience cramps. I had some palpitations also when I thought this isn’t right. And certainly the electrolytes helped me a lot, but as many as I did, I couldn’t fix it. And in conversations with my friends, like Tommy Wood, I was like, I’m just going to reintroduce carbohydrates and see if this helps with some of these, what I perceived to be, mostly electrolyte and probably slightly thyroid related stuff without the carbohydrates."

"But what I found was very interesting, within a few weeks that the cramps were noticeably better in my legs and the palpitations pretty much went away."

"And so I thought, oh, this is interesting. And I did feel a little warmer. So I was like, okay, I’m going to be humbled a little bit here and think like, maybe for me at least, low carb, zero carb is not ideal, 100% of the time. Now I think that you may have experienced this, but I wrote the books, the second edition to The Carnivore Code, it’s right there behind me, is out August the fourth.

"But what’s cool is that you can see over the course of the month that I did that, and even over the course of the months after, there’s no increase in fasting glucose. And I just pulled labs, which we should talk about because they’re fascinating. So my fasting insulin is three. My C-peptide is 0.5. So by all intents and purposes, I am just as insulin sensitive, if not more insulin sensitive now, than I was before.

"And now this one with carbs for the last five to six months is 533. Now remember my fasting insulin is three. My C-peptide is 0.5. My hsCRP is low. My particles are very big. And my coronary artery calcium scan is zero."

 

[julcreutz]

...Soon Paul Saladino will be sipping coffee w/ milk and sugar and painting naked women.

Jokes aside, I think there some interesting takeaways from him introducing large amounts of fructose to his purely carnivorous diet - especially considering that he has gotten blood work done to track markers + CAC scan.

Apparently he has introduced honey to his diet due to hypothyroid symptoms and is eating 250 grams per day now. His LDL score has increased to a massive 533 mg/dL... yet still his coronary artery calcium scan is zero.

Some excerpts from a recent interview:

"And I was getting cramps and a lot of people in ketogenic, low carb communities will experience cramps. I had some palpitations also when I thought this isn’t right. And certainly the electrolytes helped me a lot, but as many as I did, I couldn’t fix it. And in conversations with my friends, like Tommy Wood, I was like, I’m just going to reintroduce carbohydrates and see if this helps with some of these, what I perceived to be, mostly electrolyte and probably slightly thyroid related stuff without the carbohydrates."

"But what I found was very interesting, within a few weeks that the cramps were noticeably better in my legs and the palpitations pretty much went away."

"And so I thought, oh, this is interesting. And I did feel a little warmer. So I was like, okay, I’m going to be humbled a little bit here and think like, maybe for me at least, low carb, zero carb is not ideal, 100% of the time. Now I think that you may have experienced this, but I wrote the books, the second edition to The Carnivore Code, it’s right there behind me, is out August the fourth.

"But what’s cool is that you can see over the course of the month that I did that, and even over the course of the months after, there’s no increase in fasting glucose. And I just pulled labs, which we should talk about because they’re fascinating. So my fasting insulin is three. My C-peptide is 0.5. So by all intents and purposes, I am just as insulin sensitive, if not more insulin sensitive now, than I was before.

"And now this one with carbs for the last five to six months is 533. Now remember my fasting insulin is three. My C-peptide is 0.5. My hsCRP is low. My particles are very big. And my coronary artery calcium scan is zero."

Absolutely. What just baffles me that all these keto people secretly lie about their health. He obviously didn't feel right, and I doubt that it's just been the last few weeks that he has had cramps and been feeling cold. They sellout for money and deteriorate manys people's health with it. Applicable to most dietary ideologies.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Not sure yet; I'm on ketogenic diet style since 2 1/2 months, under 50g of curbs and am warm and toasty. Also, Saladino is munching 150g of carbs, not 250. But still a lot, but even this could be still ketogenic dieting 100% if we account for the amount of conditioning and workouts many americans have. Could be that this amount just tops of his glycogen reserves and he is sparing himself of gluconeogenesis via proteincatabolism. Interesting development tho.

 

[lvysaur]

The carnivore diet is going to end up just like the Iraq War. In 10 years, noone will admit to having supported it.

Americans 'remember' opposing the Iraq War | YouGov

Can't really expect people not to lie when they regularly lie to even themselves.

 

[julcreutz]

The carnivore diet is going to end up just like the Iraq War. In 10 years, noone will admit to having supported it.

Americans 'remember' opposing the Iraq War | YouGov

Can't really expect people not to lie when they regularly lie to even themselves.

This. I hate the word "fad" but this really is one of those.
Hard to admit, but I always lied to myself while on one of those restrictive diets, be it vegan, keto or carnivore.

 

[Korven]

Not sure yet; I'm on ketogenic diet style since 2 1/2 months, under 50g of curbs and am warm and toasty. Also, Saladino is munching 150g of carbs, not 250. But still a lot, but even this could be still ketogenic dieting 100% if we account for the amount of conditioning and workouts many americans have. Could be that this amount just tops of his glycogen reserves and he is sparing himself of gluconeogenesis via proteincatabolism. Interesting development tho.

At least according to this post (Added by @shawnbaker1967 Instagram post Because someone wanted me to respond- personally I don’t care what someone else chooses to eat, but if it were me and knowing my physiology I’d be a heck of a lot less concerned about the 1gm of extra PUFA I got from eating grain fed pork than I would from slamming a quarter of a kilogram of sugar syrup - Picuki.com) it's 250 g split between two meals. But maybe he's changed things up since then.

Also, just thought I'd mention I find your posts really helpful @Tristan Loscha ! Been upping my nutrition massively through supplementation and I am seeing compounding positive results from consistent high dose magnesium, B complex, thiamine, vitamin D, K, E, etc. Just covering all bases. Years of malnutrition and stress depletes the body of resources and I believe a good diet alone might not solve everything on its own. At least it wasn't enough for me.

I like the idea of keto/carnivore in theory, and it does feel stimulating and quite enjoyable for a while, but I just can't seem to do it longer than a few days without feeling uncomfortably "on edge" all of the time. It becomes very hard to relax and I become a nightmare to be around. Sleep is usually the first thing to go south for me, wake up several times every night. Managed to do 5 weeks zero carb in 2018 and things just got worse over time so I'm not sure if it's a matter of giving enough time to adapt to beta-oxidation/ketogenesis. Perhaps I'll give it another go at some point.

This. I hate the word "fad" but this really is one of those.
Hard to admit, but I always lied to myself while on one of those restrictive diets, be it vegan, keto or carnivore.

Same. And I think in Pauls case he would be even more inclined to lie to himself when he has to uphold an image of being healthy for his marketing/coaching business.

 

[opson123]

...Soon Paul Saladino will be sipping coffee w/ milk and sugar and painting naked women.

Jokes aside, I think there some interesting takeaways from him introducing large amounts of fructose to his purely carnivorous diet - especially considering that he has gotten blood work done to track markers + CAC scan.

Apparently he has introduced honey to his diet due to hypothyroid symptoms and is eating 250 grams per day now. His LDL score has increased to a massive 533 mg/dL... yet still his coronary artery calcium scan is zero.

Some excerpts from a recent interview:

"And I was getting cramps and a lot of people in ketogenic, low carb communities will experience cramps. I had some palpitations also when I thought this isn’t right. And certainly the electrolytes helped me a lot, but as many as I did, I couldn’t fix it. And in conversations with my friends, like Tommy Wood, I was like, I’m just going to reintroduce carbohydrates and see if this helps with some of these, what I perceived to be, mostly electrolyte and probably slightly thyroid related stuff without the carbohydrates."

"But what I found was very interesting, within a few weeks that the cramps were noticeably better in my legs and the palpitations pretty much went away."

"And so I thought, oh, this is interesting. And I did feel a little warmer. So I was like, okay, I’m going to be humbled a little bit here and think like, maybe for me at least, low carb, zero carb is not ideal, 100% of the time. Now I think that you may have experienced this, but I wrote the books, the second edition to The Carnivore Code, it’s right there behind me, is out August the fourth.

"But what’s cool is that you can see over the course of the month that I did that, and even over the course of the months after, there’s no increase in fasting glucose. And I just pulled labs, which we should talk about because they’re fascinating. So my fasting insulin is three. My C-peptide is 0.5. So by all intents and purposes, I am just as insulin sensitive, if not more insulin sensitive now, than I was before.

"And now this one with carbs for the last five to six months is 533. Now remember my fasting insulin is three. My C-peptide is 0.5. My hsCRP is low. My particles are very big. And my coronary artery calcium scan is zero."

Do you mean he eats 250g of honey now?

 

[Vegancrossfit]

It’s not hard to understand.

They think working out hard is healthy. They think zero carb is healthy. They want to be the poster doc all over the Internet and social media and be like “Age is just a number” jacked tan controversial.

Massive ego trippin’

The incompatibility is right here: train hard with carbs or stay put without em. Baker is either on TRT or a massive outlier. His A1c is sky high from intense training without any carbs. Cortisol all over again.

I’m surprised MDs forget the most basic biochemistry.

I do not have an issue with consuming zero carbs or whatever. If you are fully sedentary, why not. Maybe. I don’t know.

But zero carb and intense training? They wanna have their steak and eat it too??

 

[Tristan Loscha]

At least according to this post (Added by @shawnbaker1967 Instagram post Because someone wanted me to respond- personally I don’t care what someone else chooses to eat, but if it were me and knowing my physiology I’d be a heck of a lot less concerned about the 1gm of extra PUFA I got from eating grain fed pork than I would from slamming a quarter of a kilogram of sugar syrup - Picuki.com) it's 250 g split between two meals. But maybe he's changed things up since then.

Also, just thought I'd mention I find your posts really helpful @Tristan Loscha ! Been upping my nutrition massively through supplementation and I am seeing compounding positive results from consistent high dose magnesium, B complex, thiamine, vitamin D, K, E, etc. Just covering all bases. Years of malnutrition and stress depletes the body of resources and I believe a good diet alone might not solve everything on its own. At least it wasn't enough for me.

I like the idea of keto/carnivore in theory, and it does feel stimulating and quite enjoyable for a while, but I just can't seem to do it longer than a few days without feeling uncomfortably "on edge" all of the time. It becomes very hard to relax and I become a nightmare to be around. Sleep is usually the first thing to go south for me, wake up several times every night. Managed to do 5 weeks zero carb in 2018 and things just got worse over time so I'm not sure if it's a matter of giving enough time to adapt to beta-oxidation/ketogenesis. Perhaps I'll give it another go at some point.



Same. And I think in Pauls case he would be even more inclined to lie to himself when he has to uphold an image of being healthy for his marketing/coaching business.

Thank you very much!

 

[Jessie]

Did anyone else catch Tim Berzins video on hepatic insulin resistance? He brings up a interesting discussing about lifetime low cabers, and how rushing into consuming fructose while they've been eating a high fat may not be the best thing. Saladino may be more insulin resistant then he thinks. If you overload your body with more sugar then it can utilize, it's just going to convert to lactate, which is just as bad as using fat for fuel, arguably worse.

 

[lvysaur]

They think working out hard is healthy. They think zero carb is healthy. They want to be the poster doc all over the Internet and social media and be like “Age is just a number” jacked tan controversial.

Massive ego trippin’

There's also the "meat is masculine" pressure.
Millions of sheep grow long beards, spend extra on tomahawk steaks (where you pay top dollar for useless bone), drink triple hopped beer that tastes like lysol, all in order to "prove" their masculinity, either to others or to themselves.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Yeah it’s laughable.

I don’t discount testimonies on meatrx.com. But I most certainly think that extreme ways of eating are not compatible with optimal sports performance. So that’s why those docs have terrible blood works. But I tend to think that the problem is their quest for performance, not the steak eating.

My internal jury is still out on carnivore + sedentary lifestyles. Maybe. Why not? I don’t really see humans leaving the aerobic zone much throughout history. What for? Walk and sprint once in a while.

There is a whole industry that leads to people believing that intense training is healthy and should be practiced every day. I don’t think that’s true.

 

[Korven]

Yeah it’s laughable.

I don’t discount testimonies on meatrx.com. But I most certainly think that extreme ways of eating are not compatible with optimal sports performance. So that’s why those docs have terrible blood works. But I tend to think that the problem is their quest for performance, not the steak eating.

My internal jury is still out on carnivore + sedentary lifestyles. Maybe. Why not? I don’t really see humans leaving the aerobic zone much throughout history. What for? Walk and sprint once in a while.

There is a whole industry that leads to people believing that intense training is healthy and should be practiced every day. I don’t think that’s true.

Yeah mainstream advice is quite bizarre - you're going to fix things by adding MORE stress to an already stressed, hypometabolic organism? Also don't forget to eat healthy whole grains to become bloated and inflamed.

My health just got worse and worse when I tried to force myself to train when my body actually needed to rest. I have no idea how Shawn Baker hasn't fallen apart yet, I had a hard time walking up the stairs on zero carb and he's been doing intense training 2x per day in desert heat, every single day for years.

 

[gately]

The level of hate carnivore gets on this forum is hilarious. Zero carb definitely didn’t work for me, and I’m sure plenty of other people here. But I’ve seen it literally cure autoimmune diseases like basically nothing else I’ve ever seen in the alternative health world. The health recovery stories are nothing short of miraculous: from bi-polar to Crohn’s disease. I haven’t seen nearly the same level of success come from Ray Peat followers.

I get it. It’s not going to work for everyone. Some people it’s going to make much worse. It’s potentially extremely dangerous, and there’s some horror stories emerging. But as a “last ditch” health effort it’s basically the most incredible thing I’ve ever seen after a decade of researching health.

 

[rob]

The level of hate carnivore gets on this forum is hilarious. Zero carb definitely didn’t work for me, and I’m sure plenty of other people here. But I’ve seen it literally cure autoimmune diseases like basically nothing else I’ve ever seen in the alternative health world. The health recovery stories are nothing short of miraculous: from bi-polar to Crohn’s disease. I haven’t seen nearly the same level of success come from Ray Peat followers.

I get it. It’s not going to work for everyone. Some people it’s going to make much worse. It’s potentially extremely dangerous, and there’s some horror stories emerging. But as a “last ditch” health effort it’s basically the most incredible thing I’ve ever seen after a decade of researching health.

I agree, the autoimmune-carnivore/ketogenic diet connection is a very interesting one and, certainly, worthy of exploration.

That said, with the more extreme, exclusionary diets, I am concerned over their sustainability and long-term effects, which is very important in developing practical management strategies for chronic diseases. Hence the reason it's important to unpick their mechanism(s) of action.

As a small example, I know on the rheumatoid arthritis front that there are studies implicating dysfunctional glucose metabolism, a PPP shunt and an excessively reduced state leading to impaired redox signalling in T cells. This leads to a hyper-proliferative, aggressive phenotype and, thus, a pro-inflammatory state (see Restoring oxidant signaling suppresses pro-arthritogenic T-cell effector functions in rheumatoid arthritis).

From this perspective, one could imagine how starving the body of glucose might help quell inflammation. That said, if this was the case, I'd be more interested in improving glycolytic flux.

 

[opson123]

The level of hate carnivore gets on this forum is hilarious. Zero carb definitely didn’t work for me, and I’m sure plenty of other people here. But I’ve seen it literally cure autoimmune diseases like basically nothing else I’ve ever seen in the alternative health world. The health recovery stories are nothing short of miraculous: from bi-polar to Crohn’s disease. I haven’t seen nearly the same level of success come from Ray Peat followers.

I get it. It’s not going to work for everyone. Some people it’s going to make much worse. It’s potentially extremely dangerous, and there’s some horror stories emerging. But as a “last ditch” health effort it’s basically the most incredible thing I’ve ever seen after a decade of researching health.

I agree. Though I think people just tend to forget what it was like being, or haven't been, really sick. You can't eat food without pain, you're miserable and depressed 24/7 and have been for years, nothing works. Then one "last ditch" effort works and you're able to function like a normal human again. At that point you don't really care whether it's RP or not.

 

[Blossom]

I agree. Though I think people just tend to forget what it was like being, or haven't been, really sick. You can't eat food without pain, you're miserable and depressed 24/7 and have been for years, nothing works. Then one "last ditch" effort works and you're able to function like a normal human again. At that point you don't really care whether it's RP or not.

That’s what it was for me exactly- a last ditch effort. Ray Peat and this forum helped get me out of a horrific situation and taught me to think for myself and listen to my body. I’m doing more a little more carbs and dairy after 14.5 months without any problems. It truly has been the ultimate elimination diet for my situation and my health is at a place I never imagined I would experience. I’m probably one of the outliers due to my celiac and oxalate issues though and don’t think it’s necessary or optimal for most people.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Does anyone know how much time sans carbs is required for liver/pancreas function to truly be hit?

evidently tribes in the wild who may or may not eat primarily meat/fish, won’t pass up anything edible and will munch on berries, honey, whatever. I guess Saladino justifies his quarter kilogram of honey (....) by citing those facts.

I’d suppose significant beta cell apoptosis would take months then?

@Korven his bloodwork is trash. What he has going for him though is that his purpose in life is very strong and he looks like someone who is truly happy with his choices. That should help tolerate the absurd amounts of stress. That or HRT.

 

[julcreutz]

The whole problem with carnivore is that the community demonizes every plant food with very little evidence. Heck, do we have proof that these people literally can only eat meat? I'm sure most of them could find a plant food they tolerate and eat only that. Granted, meat is necessary in a diet imo, but elimination diets can also be done with plant foods. Just gotta find the one that works for oneself.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

I don’t doubt they’d all tolerate fruits / juices / honey more than fine. But they obviously gobbled all the “science” on sugar being the worst of all evils. Try to talk about honey on r/carnivore you’ll get a nice DM from moderators nowadays, saying you’ve been censored.

They aren’t exactly attracting sympathy.