Carnivore Diet and Blood Sugar

[BestSinceDAYONE]

Why does blood sugar rise to unhealthy levels on low carb / carnivore diets.

I recently came off of a low carb style diet. And my blood sugar was 99 mg/dL, all my other labs were fine, even cholesterol. I think h1bac was like .1 over the limit.

 

[CLASH]

@VendettaRed911

It could be a variety of factors.

I'm assuming the blood test was done fasting in the morning to determine fasting glucose. If so, there is something called the dawn phenomenon, where blood sugar droppong in the night triggers a cortisol response. The cortisol response can cause elevated morning blood sugar. This is often seen in diabetics. I would take a look at your daily cortisol curve to get a better idea if this is whats happening in your case.

 

[TheBeard]

Why does blood sugar rise to unhealthy levels on low carb / carnivore diets.

I recently came off of a low carb style diet. And my blood sugar was 99 mg/dL, all my other labs were fine, even cholesterol. I think h1bac was like .1 over the limit.

Because of all that PUFA being released in your blood stream.

Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

Diabetes was named for the excessive urination it causes, and for the sugar in the urine. It was called the sugar disease, and physicians were taught that sugar was the problem. Patients were ordered to avoid sweet foods, and in hospitals they were sometimes locked up to keep them from finding...

raypeat.com

 

[Jam]

Carbohydrate restriction always leads to elevated cortisol. Once liver glycogen is depleted the body must raise cortisol levels to increase gluconeogenesis in order to generate the glucose it needs (to maintain blood glucose within a certain range) from protein, obtained both from the diet and cannibalized from your own body.

 

[Blaze]

Carbohydrate restriction always leads to elevated cortisol. Once liver glycogen is depleted the body must raise cortisol levels to increase gluconeogenesis in order to generate the glucose it needs (to maintain blood glucose within a certain range) from protein, obtained both from the diet and cannibalized from your own body.

That's the right answer from Jam. And I think it's mostly the protein contributing to that. Glucose is tightly controlled by the body and when the body detects a lack of glucose it will make it's own from protein or fatty acids or lactate. Cortisol is the main culprit and part of a fasting or starvation response initiated when blood sugar falls to a low level. The only thing you can do to have some impact is raise fat and lower protein intake. Protein is way more insulinogenic than fat and the byproduct of ammonia when the nitrogen is cleaved is a big minus also.

Followup questions:

Why low carb? Certainly not Ray Peat style to go low carb but perhaps you had a good reason.

Why did you switch to carnivore? Were you feeling bad on the previous low carb diet which prompted your switch to carnivore?

 

[TheBeard]

Carbohydrate restriction always leads to elevated cortisol. Once liver glycogen is depleted the body must raise cortisol levels to increase gluconeogenesis in order to generate the glucose it needs (to maintain blood glucose within a certain range) from protein, obtained both from the diet and cannibalized from your own body.

Is that why cortisol rises on glucose deprivation ?
Can you link me to RP or studies explaining this ?

 

[Jon2547]

I thought it was glucagon not cortisol that triggers ketosis.

 

[Yucca]

The raise of cortisol is only transitory.

All values comes back to normal after a few days/weeks (depends of individual adaptation to ketosis)

 

[tallglass13]

Adrenaline from lack of glucose will spike blood sugar as well.

 

[Jam]

Is that why cortisol rises on glucose deprivation ?
Can you link me to RP or studies explaining this ?

When sugar isn't available in the diet, stored glycogen will provide some glucose (usually for a few hours, up to a day), but as that is depleted, protein will be metabolized to provide sugar. If protein is eaten without carbohydrate, it will stimulate insulin secretion, lowering blood sugar and activating the stress response, leading to the secretion of adrenalin, cortisol, growth hormone, prolactin, and other hormones. The adrenalin will mobilize glycogen from the liver, and (along with other hormones) will mobilize fatty acids, mainly from fat cells. Cortisol will activate the conversion of protein to amino acids, and then to fat and sugar, for use as energy. (If the diet doesn't contain enough protein to maintain the essential organs, especially the heart, lungs, and brain, they are supplied with protein from the skeletal muscles. Because of the amino acid composition of the muscle proteins, their destruction stimulates the formation of additional cortisol, to accelerate the movement of amino acids from the less important tissues to the essential ones.)

Rather than the sustained hyperglycemia which is measured for determining the glycemic index, I think the “diabetogenic” or “carcinogenic” action of starch has to do with the stress reaction that follows the intense stimulation of insulin release. This is most easily seen after a large amount of protein is eaten. Insulin is secreted in response to the amino acids, and besides stimulating cells to take up the amino acids and convert them into protein, the insulin also lowers the blood sugar. This decrease in blood sugar stimulates the formation of many hormones, including cortisol, and under the influence of cortisol both sugar and fat are produced by the breakdown of proteins, including those already forming the tissues of the body. At the same time, adrenalin and several other hormones are causing free fatty acids to appear in the blood.

Since the work of Cushing and Houssay, it has been understood that blood sugar is controlled by antagonistic hormones: Remove the pituitary along with the pancreas, and the lack of insulin doesn't cause hyperglycemia. If something increases cortisol a little, the body can maintain normal blood sugar by secreting more insulin, but that tends to increase cortisol production. A certain degree of glycemia is produced by a particular balance between opposing hormones.​

Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

​

 

[Peater Griffin]

Ray also mentions that mechanism (adrenaline mobilizing glycogen from stores; only if that fails, cortisol increases to raise blood glucose) in the following clip, although he doesn't explain it in depth there.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF74NnvbQcQ&t=5s

 

[BestSinceDAYONE]

That's the right answer from Jam. And I think it's mostly the protein contributing to that. Glucose is tightly controlled by the body and when the body detects a lack of glucose it will make it's own from protein or fatty acids or lactate. Cortisol is the main culprit and part of a fasting or starvation response initiated when blood sugar falls to a low level. The only thing you can do to have some impact is raise fat and lower protein intake. Protein is way more insulinogenic than fat and the byproduct of ammonia when the nitrogen is cleaved is a big minus also.

Followup questions:

Why low carb? Certainly not Ray Peat style to go low carb but perhaps you had a good reason.

Why did you switch to carnivore? Were you feeling bad on the previous low carb diet which prompted your switch to carnivore?

Hi Blaze!

I like many others, was convinced this was the way to live and rapid weight loss, being lean and with a six pack was the meaning of health.

Once, I went low carb and found it didn't resolve my symptoms, I tried carnivore style diet with a refeed day.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Is that why cortisol rises on glucose deprivation ?
Can you link me to RP or studies explaining this ?

What Jam said. Cortisol is a way for the body to get energy in stressful situations. Ray talked about how primates( I think he used a gorilla as an example), after having their adrenal glands removed, crave more sugar, likely because the carbs which were coming from the lean tissues now need to come from the diet. Sugar lowers cortisol because the body doesn't need to eat its own muscles and other expendable organs to satisfy a carbohydrate craving.

The raise of cortisol is only transitory.

All values comes back to normal after a few days/weeks (depends of individual adaptation to ketosis)

Did you measure your own levels of cortisol before and after you started eating a low carb diet? I'm assuming you're on a diet like that. Just curious, since people in the carnivore community often say that about adrenaline and cortisol.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

.

 

[GreenTrails]

Because of all that PUFA being released in your blood stream.

Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

Diabetes was named for the excessive urination it causes, and for the sugar in the urine. It was called the sugar disease, and physicians were taught that sugar was the problem. Patients were ordered to avoid sweet foods, and in hospitals they were sometimes locked up to keep them from finding...

raypeat.com

Thank you for the Glucose and Sucrose for Diabetes. Lots of good information.

 

[Blaze]

Hi Blaze!

I like many others, was convinced this was the way to live and rapid weight loss, being lean and with a six pack was the meaning of health.

Once, I went low carb and found it didn't resolve my symptoms, I tried carnivore style diet with a refeed day.

I like that idea. I am not in favor of a strict carnivore diet unless you take a break every so often and do a refeed with some carbs. Once a week seems appropriate to me. If you want less insulin response when you are eating strictly carnivore , you must increase the fat ratio a lot. Lowering protein will almost always reduce gluconeogenesis. And the converse is also true, you are not even remotely low carb if you eat a lot of protein. Just low exogenous carb. You will be an endogenous carb making mofo on a high protein carnivore diet.

The only reason I would and did ever go carnivore for a while is to reduce gut issues and body inflammation, and neurological symptoms. In my experience it can be very effective for gut dysbiosis giving the gut a good break from all fiber, starch, etc..... Once any gut issues seem better , probably time to resume a more Peat style diet in my humble opinion. But, hey, whatever works for you. I'm certainly not dogmatic and while I have learned a great deal from Ray and others, there's still a lot more for me to learn in these areas. Love this forum as it gives a great opportunity to learn from the many intelligent posters here. Lots of great suppositions being posited here for our careful consideration.

And who said carnivore has to be low carb anyway. That's more philosophically like keto in my opinion. You are in charge of you and can experiment and tailor any diet to meet your needs and goals. My idea of a good carnivore diet is not low carb at all, but just meat focused. I don't worry so much about low carb and I guess my idea of Blaze Carnivore might be considered heretical. I would liberally eat meat, coconut oil, and include other animal products like cheese, eggs, and milk. But, again, low carb isn't one of my criteria. Just about giving the gut a break. Kinda like a GAPS influenced diet to lower inflammation but including milk as the only real carb source. If someone has issues with dairy intolerance or high blood sugar, my way would not be a good choice , as milk has a lot of sugar. If dairy is tolerated well and the body is able to maintain good blood sugar levels, this way helps a ton.

 

[BestSinceDAYONE]

I like that idea. I am not in favor of a strict carnivore diet unless you take a break every so often and do a refeed with some carbs. Once a week seems appropriate to me. If you want less insulin response when you are eating strictly carnivore , you must increase the fat ratio a lot. Lowering protein will almost always reduce gluconeogenesis. And the converse is also true, you are not even remotely low carb if you eat a lot of protein. Just low exogenous carb. You will be an endogenous carb making mofo on a high protein carnivore diet.

The only reason I would and did ever go carnivore for a while is to reduce gut issues and body inflammation, and neurological symptoms. In my experience it can be very effective for gut dysbiosis giving the gut a good break from all fiber, starch, etc..... Once any gut issues seem better , probably time to resume a more Peat style diet in my humble opinion. But, hey, whatever works for you. I'm certainly not dogmatic and while I have learned a great deal from Ray and others, there's still a lot more for me to learn in these areas. Love this forum as it gives a great opportunity to learn from the many intelligent posters here. Lots of great suppositions being posited here for our careful consideration.

And who said carnivore has to be low carb anyway. That's more philosophically like keto in my opinion. You are in charge of you and can experiment and tailor any diet to meet your needs and goals. My idea of a good carnivore diet is not low carb at all, but just meat focused. I don't worry so much about low carb and I guess my idea of Blaze Carnivore might be considered heretical. I would liberally eat meat, coconut oil, and include other animal products like cheese, eggs, and milk. But, again, low carb isn't one of my criteria. Just about giving the gut a break. Kinda like a GAPS influenced diet to lower inflammation but including milk as the only real carb source. If someone has issues with dairy intolerance or high blood sugar, my way would not be a good choice , as milk has a lot of sugar. If dairy is tolerated well and the body is able to maintain good blood sugar levels, this way helps a ton.

So the approach I am falling is from this guy named John Kiefer, several years back he came up with the idea of backloading carbs in the night after training. You actually never go into ketosis on this type of diet (with a weekly refeed day).

body.io is his website. It's a variation of the Anabolic Diet by Dr. Mauro Dipasquale. He looks pretty good for his age.

 

[Blaze]

So the approach I am falling is from this guy named John Kiefer, several years back he came up with the idea of backloading carbs in the night after training. You actually never go into ketosis on this type of diet (with a weekly refeed day).

body.io is his website. It's a variation of the Anabolic Diet by Dr. Mauro Dipasquale. He looks pretty good for his age.

View attachment 24111

View attachment 24109

Well, not only are they young, competitive weight lifters and athletes do a lot of extreme dietary tactics and supplementation strategies that really don't apply for a normal diet. If you are involved in sports like that, those diets may have some science you can apply and benefit from. If you do not do the extreme training causing extreme depletion then backloading carbs for you might not be the same. All of this depends on your goals and myriad other factors. We learn the science as we go and make mistakes along the way and sometimes even do more harm than good to ourselves as we learn new things:

If you are a young high level athlete, then maybe yes, follow that dietary science.

If you are an older or middle age person just trying to maintain health and get some longevity, the strategy to employ could be very different.

And for those unfortunately suffering from terrible illness or metabolic disfunction or cancer or whatever else, completely different nutritional measures may be necessary to put into motion and with much greater urgency.

 

[BestSinceDAYONE]

Well, not only are they young, competitive weight lifters and athletes do a lot of extreme dietary tactics and supplementation strategies that really don't apply for a normal diet. If you are involved in sports like that, those diets may have some science you can apply and benefit from. If you do not do the extreme training causing extreme depletion then backloading carbs for you might not be the same. All of this depends on your goals. We learn the science as we go and make mistakes along the way and do more harm than good to ourselves as we learn things:

If you are a young high level athlete, then maybe yes, follow that dietary science.

If you are an older or middle age person just trying to maintain health and get some longevity, the strategy to employ could be very different.

And for those unfortunately suffering from terrible illness or metabolic disfunction or cancer or whatever else, some completely different nutritional measures may be necessary to put into motion and with greater urgency.

I like that he's not anti-carb and he even encourages the high glycemic carbs to refill glycogen stores. It seems like the current era of diet dogma (low carb, vegan) doesn't really emphasize building muscle and the role of carbohydrates in order to actually acquire the muscle.

 

[Blaze]

I like that he's not anti-carb and he even encourages the high glycemic carbs to refill glycogen stores. It seems like the current era of diet dogma (low carb, vegan) doesn't really emphasize building muscle and the role of carbohydrates in order to actually acquire the muscle.

Bodybuilders have been on the cutting edge of anabolic nutritional foods (dairy,eggs,meat,dessicated liver pills, and later steroids) for a long time now. They were the original pioneers in the golden age of bodybuilding a long time before the rest of us got interested. Many modern bodybuilders have a high level of science backing their advice. Click on this diet pic from the 1960's Mr. America below.