Cardenosine - Liquid Product For R&D

[managing]

If adenosine is highest (extracellular breakdown product of ATP) in the brain during sleep (The Role of ATP in Sleep Regulation) why would taking an ATP supplement disrupt, rather than enhance sleep?

I've experienced this with oral ATP (Swanson) as well. Should it be taken in the evening instead of the morning? Or twice a day in smaller dose? I am thinking that perhaps there could be a short term agonistic effect combined with a decline* in ATP levels that "starves" the brain of ATP, relatively speaking?

*Do you (@haidut ) know what the "half life" of ATP is?

EDIT: "Recently, it was observed in rats that ATP levels in several brain regions (frontal cortex, basal forebrain, cingulate cortex, and hippocampus) are stable during waking but exhibit a surge during the initial hours of sleep (Dworak et al., 2010). "

So taking ATP (Cardenosine) just before bedtime with a little food?

EDIT 2: "The hypnogenic properties of adenosine in specific brain areas have been demonstrated in many studies. Infusion of adenosine and adenosine transport inhibitors into the basal forebrain increases sleep in cats and rats (Portas et al., 1997; Methippara et al., 2005). Extracellular adenosine levels in the basal forebrain measured by microdialysis are lower during NREM and REM sleep in cats, while levels are increased during sleep deprivation and subsequently normalized during recovery sleep (Porkka-Heiskanen et al., 2000)."

"These findings suggest that adenosine is a sleep-promoting substance, decreasing the activity of cholinergic wake-promoting neurons in the basal forebrain that are presumably responsible for the accumulation of adenosine during prolonged waking (Porkka-Heiskanen and Kalinchuk, 2011)."

EDIT3: So the question seems to be, how rapidly is ATP broken down into adenosine (extracellular, in the brain)?

What I am finding is that I am sleeping very well for about 5 hours and then waking up.

However, I do NOT think it is cortisol. Fundamentally different. Waking up groggy (cortisol generates alertness) but unable to go back to deep sleep. Not anxious at all. Not hot (if anything, pulling the covers up because a bit cold. Not elevated pulse.

Could it be a (relatively) low extracellular adenosine causing? Would split doses (say, breakfast and dinner) eliminate? I am going to try this evening unless anybody has a clear reason not to.

 

[haidut]

If adenosine is highest (extracellular breakdown product of ATP) in the brain during sleep (The Role of ATP in Sleep Regulation) why would taking an ATP supplement disrupt, rather than enhance sleep?

I've experienced this with oral ATP (Swanson) as well. Should it be taken in the evening instead of the morning? Or twice a day in smaller dose? I am thinking that perhaps there could be a short term agonistic effect combined with a decline* in ATP levels that "starves" the brain of ATP, relatively speaking?

*Do you (@haidut ) know what the "half life" of ATP is?

EDIT: "Recently, it was observed in rats that ATP levels in several brain regions (frontal cortex, basal forebrain, cingulate cortex, and hippocampus) are stable during waking but exhibit a surge during the initial hours of sleep (Dworak et al., 2010). "

So taking ATP (Cardenosine) just before bedtime with a little food?

EDIT 2: "The hypnogenic properties of adenosine in specific brain areas have been demonstrated in many studies. Infusion of adenosine and adenosine transport inhibitors into the basal forebrain increases sleep in cats and rats (Portas et al., 1997; Methippara et al., 2005). Extracellular adenosine levels in the basal forebrain measured by microdialysis are lower during NREM and REM sleep in cats, while levels are increased during sleep deprivation and subsequently normalized during recovery sleep (Porkka-Heiskanen et al., 2000)."

"These findings suggest that adenosine is a sleep-promoting substance, decreasing the activity of cholinergic wake-promoting neurons in the basal forebrain that are presumably responsible for the accumulation of adenosine during prolonged waking (Porkka-Heiskanen and Kalinchuk, 2011)."

EDIT3: So the question seems to be, how rapidly is ATP broken down into adenosine (extracellular, in the brain)?

What I am finding is that I am sleeping very well for about 5 hours and then waking up.

However, I do NOT think it is cortisol. Fundamentally different. Waking up groggy (cortisol generates alertness) but unable to go back to deep sleep. Not anxious at all. Not hot (if anything, pulling the covers up because a bit cold. Not elevated pulse.

Could it be a (relatively) low extracellular adenosine causing? Would split doses (say, breakfast and dinner) eliminate? I am going to try this evening unless anybody has a clear reason not to.

Cardenosine is more than just ATP - it contains the L-PGA + B6 combination that together are quite dopaminergic, even in much smaller doses than found in Cardenosine. Look at the original thread for the studies under L-PGA section. Dopaminergic supplements or drugs are well known to disturb sleep and that is why I think Cardenosine is best used in the morning, unless one is going our drinking at night in which case the GABA effects of ethanol should compensate for the potential insomnia from Cardenosine.

 

[managing]

Cardenosine is more than just ATP - it contains the L-PGA + B6 combination that together are quite dopaminergic, even in much smaller doses than found in Cardenosine. Look at the original thread for the studies under L-PGA section. Dopaminergic supplements or drugs are well known to disturb sleep and that is why I think Cardenosine is best used in the morning, unless one is going our drinking at night in which case the GABA effects of ethanol should compensate for the potential insomnia from Cardenosine.

I hadn't considered the dopaminergic components. As I mentioned, oral atp can also be associated with sleep disturbance. So with Cardenosine, it may be both.

 

[Texon]

I hadn't considered the dopaminergic components. As I mentioned, oral atp can also be associated with sleep disturbance. So with Cardenosine, it may be both.

If good sleep is generally problematic, you may want to try 1oz tart cherry juice concentrate in some water just before bed. I did this last night, fell asleep around 12:30, and was out cold until about 7, went back to sleep til 8:30, then again til 9:30. This was even after a late night coca cola. Feel fine so far after blueberry pancakes with butter/honey, small sugared coffee, 5 mgs oral Dhea, 2 drops androsterone on wrists, 1 pantethine 300 mgs, 650 mgs tmg powder from Bulk (for elevated homocysteine) and 1-450 mg Allimax allicin capsule. Sleep has been much better lately after adding occasional 500 mgs niacinamide prn (even in the middle of the night) and taking pieces of gb-3 digestive enzyme tablets with meals. Also, Jenny's gluten free coconut macaroons and Allimax seem to be helping with deep seated fungal issues caused by heavy antibiotics for post surgical mssa/cellulitis infection. The Allimax is documented to be better than any antibiotic if taken in high enough doses, and I think the laurie acid etc. in the macaroons has helped too. I'll also eat one of these in the middle of the night if needed. I believe the antimicrobials and enzymes are helping with day/nighttime reflux and food intolerances too.

 

[managing]

If good sleep is generally problematic, you may want to try 1oz tart cherry juice concentrate in some water just before bed. I did this last night, fell asleep around 12:30, and was out cold until about 7, went back to sleep til 8:30, then again til 9:30. This was even after a late night coca cola. Feel fine so far after blueberry pancakes with butter/honey, small sugared coffee, 5 mgs oral Dhea, 2 drops androsterone on wrists, 1 pantethine 300 mgs, 650 mgs tmg powder from Bulk (for elevated homocysteine) and 1-450 mg Allimax allicin capsule. Sleep has been much better lately after adding occasional 500 mgs niacinamide prn (even in the middle of the night) and taking pieces of gb-3 digestive enzyme tablets with meals. Also, Jenny's gluten free coconut macaroons and Allimax seem to be helping with deep seated fungal issues caused by heavy antibiotics for post surgical mssa/cellulitis infection. The Allimax is documented to be better than any antibiotic if taken in high enough doses, and I think the laurie acid etc. in the macaroons has helped too. I'll also eat one of these in the middle of the night if needed. I believe the antimicrobials and enzymes are helping with day/nighttime reflux and food intolerances too.

Generally sleep is not a problem. But oral ATP has given me difficulty in past. It definitely increases my caloric need which seems kind of counter-intuitive. Consuming some sugar when I wake up solves the problem though.

 

[haidut]

It definitely increases my caloric need which seems kind of counter-intuitive

One of the studies on oral ATP in the original thread showed that it dramatically increases food utilization and ability to synthesize various purines and other building blocks of cells. I would say increased caloric need is not a bad thing. Expensive, but healthwise probably a good sign. Getting by on very few calories is a sign of low metabolism and/or stress.

 

[managing]

One of the studies on oral ATP in the original thread showed that it dramatically increases food utilization and ability to synthesize various purines and other building blocks of cells. I would say increased caloric need is not a bad thing. Expensive, but healthwise probably a good sign. Getting by on very few calories is a sign of low metabolism and/or stress.

I definitely can see this (although "getting by on very few calories" doesn't describe the prior state). One strange response I was having was that I was experiencing some high and low blood sugar events. Nothing extreme, but noticeable. I started using thyroid again, just a little, (tyromix) and that evened it right out. It seemed counterintuitive to add thyroid to something that was increasing metabolism. But made a huge difference. The two like each other very much. ymmv

 

[haidut]

I definitely can see this (although "getting by on very few calories" doesn't describe the prior state). One strange response I was having was that I was experiencing some high and low blood sugar events. Nothing extreme, but noticeable. I started using thyroid again, just a little, (tyromix) and that evened it right out. It seemed counterintuitive to add thyroid to something that was increasing metabolism. But made a huge difference. The two like each other very much. ymmv

Both succinic acid and L-PGA are well known to drop blood sugar. St. Gyorgyi was using succinic acid to treat diabetes as it he found it was so effective as hypoglycemic agent.

 

[DaveFoster]

I'd say that it does all of these things, with about the same effectiveness of caffeine. I haven't been logging biometrics, but temps and pulse seem to be consistent on caffeine days, cardenosine days, and thyroid days.

Hey Pointless, does Cardenosine lower stress/anxiety for you?

@haidut

If someone takes P5P already (such as in Energin), would there be any problems taking the extra P5P in Cardenosine?

 

[Pointless]

Hey Pointless, does Cardenosine lower stress/anxiety for you?

@haidut

If someone takes P5P already (such as in Energin), would there be any problems taking the extra P5P in Cardenosine?

Not really. Sugar, k2, and niacinamide are my go-tos there.

 

[haidut]

Hey Pointless, does Cardenosine lower stress/anxiety for you?

@haidut

If someone takes P5P already (such as in Energin), would there be any problems taking the extra P5P in Cardenosine?

That's one of the reasons recommending on the label to use every other day at the 40 drop dose (or 20 drops if every day) in order to avoid getting too much P5P daily.

 

[DaveFoster]

Not really. Sugar, k2, and niacinamide are my go-tos there.

Excellent, thank you. All the quinones seem to have anxiolytic effects, but it's hard to tell about Panquinone (maybe due to the theacrine.)

That's one of the reasons recommending on the label to use every other day at the 40 drop dose (or 20 drops if every day) in order to avoid getting too much P5P daily.

So, lets say (6 mg*15x potentiation by ethanol) = ~ 90 mg P5P from Energin

Then, 6 mg P5P from Cardenosine would be 96 mg P5P total. Would that be a problem, or am I considering too much from the Energin?

 

[haidut]

Excellent, thank you. All the quinones seem to have anxiolytic effects, but it's hard to tell about Panquinone (maybe due to the theacrine.)

So, lets say (6 mg*15x potentiation by ethanol) = ~ 90 mg P5P from Energin

Then, 6 mg P5P from Cardenosine would be 96 mg P5P total. Would that be a problem, or am I considering too much from the Energin?

In theory yes, but I have not received reports of P5P yet and when I use it in those doses it does not seem to cause issues for me. Haven;t measured my P5P levels in a while so when I do I'll share the results.

 

[DaveFoster]

In theory yes, but I have not received reports of P5P yet and when I use it in those doses it does not seem to cause issues for me. Haven;t measured my P5P levels in a while so when I do I'll share the results.

Great, please do. It would be informative to know the combined effects of Energin and Cardenosine, as I think many Cardenosine users also take Energin.

 

[Texon]

Yeah, the skin test is nice but it can be skewed by local conditions not indicative of systemic health. I was thinking that maybe ingesting up to a certain amount of MB and checking for urine discoloration would be more indicative of systemic health as it has to pass through the GI, liver and then kidneys. Human studies with oral MB show that the bioavailability is pretty stable and does not vary much. I think it was around 70%. I have seen very young children get blue pee from 1mg oral MB doses and I am inclined to think it signifies their high oxidative state, while I have seen adults not get any change in urine color from even 15mg doses. This can't be a coincidence and as such could be developed into a more robust test with "normal" ranges where say a person ingests increasing MB doses once daily for several days until the pee turns blue. The lowest dose at which this happens can be compared to the results of a large number of other adults and this could gauge redox status. I suppose the same can be achieved with a simple blood test for pyruvate and lactate and then the pyruvate/lactate ratio can be checked against known pathological ranges for which data already exists. But the MB test would be better since it would be non-invasive and everybody can do at home without doctors getting involved.

Just a cautionary note about mb and serotonin syndrome....
https://www.google.com/search?ei=ah.....mobile-gws-wiz-serp.......0i71.2w0SMq2ZKSs=
Understand this was a geriatric patient on serotonergic meds and with severe kidney issues as well.

 

[Pointless]

Excellent, thank you. All the quinones seem to have anxiolytic effects, but it's hard to tell about Panquinone (maybe due to the theacrine.)

Panquinone is different from Lapodin. It works well combined with deep breathing.

 

[DaveFoster]

Panquinone is different from Lapodin. It works well combined with deep breathing.

Would you say Panquinone's more stimulating ? Lapodin's emodin and beta-lapachone drop blood sugar rapidly and leave one feeling deflated or physically relaxed, albeit there's some anxiety attached with the initial panic preceding the need for carbohydrate.

 

[Ingenol]

My Cardenosine arrived with some precipitate--is it stable enough to heat it briefly to try to dissolve it or how might I proceed?

 

[ddjd]

I think most purines, including ATP are anti-serotonin and improve digestion efficiency. Inosine has been shown to do the same.

can you explain this a little further, why is ATP anti serotonin?

 

[ddjd]

Is there a link between pyroglutamic acid and higher HGH?