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Cardenosine - Liquid Product For R&D

Discussion in 'IdeaLabs' started by haidut, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. Hiwatt

    Hiwatt Member

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    Has anyone studied topical application of CARDENOSINE + SOLBAN yet for any extended period any had any results to report with regard to hair restoration? I am interested in studying this supplement. By the way DIAMANT is definitely a strong positive for antidepressant effect. I was always telling my psychiatrist that low dopamine was my problem and he ignored me. I then quit all Rx meds : Pristiq 100mg + Wellbutrin SR 400mg + Buspirone 30mg + Klonopin 1mg to his great surprise (not being Rx institutionalized anymore).

    I added DIAMANT about 4 drops 2x per day (2 months ago) and my anxiety and depression are GONE. So the toxic prescription medicine was not only failing to solve my problems but exacerbated them. I used DIAMANT and TYROMAX to reset myself and haven't felt better in years.

    I found this forum when I was researching stopping androgenic alopecia and my theory of overall wellness expanded into depression/anxiety/hairloss/weightloss/circulation/metabolism/joint pain/estrogen dominance/ED/digestion/eyesight/sleep & more. This forum is excellent.

    My study on androgenic alopecia is ongoing as I test different supplements. I have been curious about the ATP component. For sure boosting thyroid has seemed to help slow down hairloss if not stop it, and the dopamine lowers CORTISOL for sure. This is all linked together. I switched to as many IdeaLabs supplements as I can along the way here: KUINONE, CALCIROL, TOCOVIT - which are excellent.

    I am currently working on lowering cortisol, increasing testosterone/estrogen ratio, and adding a tiny bit of progesterone (PROGESTENE) into the regimen - as well as some conventional approaches such as LLLT and copper peptide for hair loss stability.

    **I know finesteride and minoxidil are frowned upon so I am hesistant to encourage any use of them but I have seen stabilization of hairloss from 1mg finesteride per day and 2x topical application of minoxidil. I plan to drop these at some point but they have worked in my opinion. I think the mechanism of progesterone as a replacement for finesteride is valid. I am looking for a replacement for minioxidil as it's vasodilating mechanism seems to be effective. My goal would be to drop the minoxidil and finesteride when I am confident in a replacement.**

    I have had 2 hair transplants of 5700 follicular units (I am at 18 months from the first). I went from a Norwood V to a Norwood II in this time frame. My hair loss has stopped for the time being and the native hair quality and density has improved dramatically. So the hair transplants were necessary to put me back in the game, and the holistic moves were designed to halt the pattern hair loss and increase anagen phase/hair density of native hair.

    ***The 18 month before and after here is as unflattering as I could get - meaning I am not trying to sugar coat the change. The lighting is consistent and both pictures are with dry hair. I can back comb my hair now as the density is higher. The second hair transplant has another 9 months for final result so the density will improve further.***

    Cheers
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Soren

    Soren Member

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    I was thinking about the combination of MB(Oxidal), B-vitamins (Energin), Succinic acid (Cardenosine) and Red light to assist every stage ATP generation/mitochondrial health/function. I'm mainly thinking about it with regards to the treatment of Parkinson's disease which I believe to be a disease that is fundamentally tied to poor energy metabolism.

    I've had very good initial results for a family member using full body red light/near-infrared light therapy for Parkinsons symptoms after a month of daily use. Improvement in mental well being and a big lift in energy. To the point where on days she does not use the red light she notices it quite a lot. She is already taking a dose of energin twice a week as well as 100mg of allithiamine twice a week. Using energin every day gave her jitters which I think is likely due to insufficient calories/nutrients and or a poor metabolism so I reduced the dose to once a week. If someone else knows another reason why energin might do this please let me know.

    My plan is to start with 20 drops of Cardenosine every other day and on those days also give her one drop of Oxidal. What I am not sure of is how exactly the combination of Cardenosine, oxidal and red light will work. I'm worried about over-stimulation and if there might be some overlap in terms of treatment. I know that energin already has vitamin B6 for example. I also have seen some studies on the forums with regards to MB doing cellular damage when combined with red light therapy (Methylene Blue And Red Light - Caution). But this creates another issue, if I dose with MB to assist with the function of the Succinic acid in Cardenosine should she not dose with red light until the MB is out of her system? I am unsure of what is the half life is of MB.

    I guess my main issue is I do not have sufficient enough knowledge of the ETC and how each treatment (MB, Red light, Succinic acid etc) will effect it, in order to make a determination on how best to combine these treatments. I know that red light therapy is involved with the last step of ATP generation by assisting the process of oxidative phosphorylation but I am somewhat ignorant on the steps proceeding this.

    My instinct would be that in a mal-functioning organism that Oxidal and Energin would be assist in the early stages of ATP production Cardenosine the middle and Red light therapy would the final, each stage building on top of the other and making the next more effective.

    I guess the main questions I have are:

    1. Will Oxidal, Energin, Cardenosine and Red light work synergistically?

    2. Will MB combined with red light therapy cause cellular damage?
     
  3. Hiwatt

    Hiwatt Member

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    My experience with LLLT Red Light Laser Cap every other day for 18 months is that it is quite safe. I am confident it has been neutral to positive when applied to scalp via the Laser Helmet "Grivamax". I personally am confident in its safety based on my experience and my feeling is that it strengthens the existing hair, allows for good circulation and has no side effects to note.
     
  4. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    1. Yes, they should. In fact, as I mentioned before there is a drug sold in Europe called Cytoflavin which contains inosine, B2, succinic acid, and B3 - ingredients found in Cardenosine and Energin. MB should improve electron transfer and synergize with Energin and Cardenosine. Red light is always good to get exposure to and should also synergize with the products but the only formal studies I am aware of used just MB and red light, not the rest of the ingredients in the products. But based on what we know about red light it should provide additional benefit.
    2. Possibly, depending on dose of MB used and how long the red light exposure is. Peat said riboflavin doses should be capped at 10mg daily especially is exposure to bright light is expected, so I would recommend doing the same with MB but capping at 5mg since MB has even more potential to generate ROS compared to B2.
     
  5. Ron J

    Ron J Member

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    @haidut
    In the Diamant thread you posted this: "I don't know, as it has not been tested. But I would suspect it can potentiate the latter as it has a decently long half life while the half life of ATP is just minutes."
    So should ATP be taken throughout the day in smaller doses, instead of one big dose(not sure if this has been answered)?
     
  6. Soren

    Soren Member

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    I am going to be trying out this combo but also with addition of red light for the treatment of Parkinson's disease. Already had very good improvement with full body red light irradiation hoping the combo of MB and ATP promoters will work even better.
     
  7. brocktoon

    brocktoon Member

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    I would be interested to hear how this goes for you. My fiance has PD and her fatigue/low energy is as disabling as the more well known symptoms of the disease.
     
  8. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    do you now believe in the ATP theory of baldness and that hormones are not that important
     
  9. DCLOSE

    DCLOSE Member

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    I received my second purchase of Cardenosine and it seems different from my first order. Not sure if it is the Succunic acid or not.

    Also, there is a precipitate formed that clogs the dropper. Am I still getting all the compounds in Cardenosine in each drop? @haidut
     
  10. Davinci

    Davinci Member

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    Curious too about this. Has anyone tried this combination?
     
  11. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    i am using my own made caffeine/niacinamide/succinic acid topical to increase atp in the skin
     
  12. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    The oral ATP may degrade but it has been shown to increase systemic levels in humans when taken over time. It may degrade but then it can be re-assembled through the salvage pathways together with inosine. So, one daily dose is probably OK.
     
  13. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    There may be some precipitation but that's because we put a bit more succinic acid then stated on the label since it dissolved poorly in water. So, the dissolved amount should match what is on the label and the sediment can be thrown away.
     
  14. managing

    managing Member

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    I wonder what you think of this.

    I took oral ATP for a few months before I started taking cardenosine. When I started taking cardenosine, I started taking it orally, like the capsulized ATP I had taken. Although I found its effects lasted longer (ie, two days), I didn't find the effect to be as strong.

    Then i started applying it topically . . . and wow, bigger effects with smaller dose. For whatever reason, cardenosine for me is much better topical. I also haven't found it to be as oily/sticky as past posts led me to expect.
     
  15. DCLOSE

    DCLOSE Member

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    Makes sense. I will probably filter the liquid.

    Also, is a topical application better for absorption of the ATP?
     
  16. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    That I don't know, but I know succinic acid and L-PGA do absorb well
     
  17. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I think the succinic acid an L-PGA, which are good transdermal enhancers, may be letting a lot more ATP get into the system undegraded. If that is the case then topical Cardenosine may be a good alternative to ATP infusions and much lower doses would be needed to achieve the same effects. That would be great not only due to reduced cost but because there would be no need to apply 40 drops (which is quite a bit of liquid to spread on skin).
     
  18. Hiwatt

    Hiwatt Member

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  19. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    ...........why not just sell pentadecanoic acid ?
     
  20. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Succinic acid is better at raising ATP. The beneficial effects of pentadecanoic acid were due to it elevating succinic acid, which then elevated ATP. But I may add another saturated acid to DeFibron (heptadecanoic acid) as it seems to prevent/treat diabetes (in obese dolphins eating human cafeteria diet high in PUFA).
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150722144627.htm
    Increased Dietary Intake of Saturated Fatty Acid Heptadecanoic Acid (C17:0) Associated with Decreasing Ferritin and Alleviated Metabolic Syndrome in Dolphins
     
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