Carbon Dioxide And Human Health - Doubts

[Dante]

Hi,
After reading Peat's work i understood that CO2 is not just some waste product but i have some doubts regarding CO2.
1. At what point does the concentration of Co2 in air starts becoming dangerous ?
Quoting from wikipedia - " Occupational CO2 exposure limits have been set in the United States at 0.5% (5000 ppm) for an eight-hour period.[101] At this CO2 concentration, International Space Station crew experienced headaches, lethargy, mental slowness, emotional irritation, and sleep disruption.[102] Studies in animals at 0.5% CO2 have demonstrated kidney calcification and bone loss after eight weeks of exposure.[103] "

" In concentrations up to 1% (10,000 ppm), it will make some people feel drowsy and give the lungs a stuffy feeling.[92] "

2. Why is 5% Co2 is added to oxygen cylinders in hospitals (95% O2 and 5% CO2) ?

3. Quoting from http://grapevine.com.au/~pbierwirth/co2toxicity.pdf - " In humans, carbon dioxide is also known to play a role in oxidative stress caused by reactive oxygen species (ROS) (Ezraty et al. 2011). Ezraty et al (2011) demonstrated that current atmospheric CO2 levels play a role in oxidative stress and that increasing CO2 levels between 400 and 1,000 ppm increasingly exacerbated oxidative stress and damage to DNA in bacteria. Increased CO2 increases the production of ROS" .
I thought CO2 mopped away the ROS and free radicals . So, why are they claiming that increasing CO2 increases ROS.
Hope someone can clarify.
Thanks

 

[paymanz]

2. Why is 5% Co2 is added to oxygen cylinders in hospitals (95% O2 and 5% CO2) ?

i think that is because those cylinders lack nitrogen , and it leaves more room for oxygen and co2.

3. Quoting from http://grapevine.com.au/~pbierwirth/co2toxicity.pdf - " In humans, carbon dioxide is also known to play a role in oxidative stress caused by reactive oxygen species (ROS) (Ezraty et al. 2011). Ezraty et al (2011) demonstrated that current atmospheric CO2 levels play a role in oxidative stress and that increasing CO2 levels between 400 and 1,000 ppm increasingly exacerbated oxidative stress and damage to DNA in bacteria. Increased CO2 increases the production of ROS" .

it surprised me, functionalps has good references about antioxidant quality of co2, you might have seen that before.

 

[ecstatichamster]

CO2 added to O2 is very helpful, reduces the negative effects of O2.

CO2 is essential and the "cardinal adsorbent" because each cell uses it for electron exchange, as I understand it.

What is confusing is, people suffer metabolic acidosis which can come from CO2 buildup. And yet CO2 buildup can be life saving. I'm still trying to figure it out.

 

[GelatinGoblin]

Bump?

 

[Perry Staltic]

2. Why is 5% Co2 is added to oxygen cylinders in hospitals (95% O2 and 5% CO2) ?

It's not. The product exists (Carbogen), but few if any hospitals use it (in the US) as far as I know.

 

[Perry Staltic]

I heard in an interview a while back that lack of sufficient CO2 in mechanical ventilation air causes lung inflammation. Ray Peat seems to echo that sentiment.

Although it has been about 70 years since Yandell Henderson made it clear that supplemental oxygen should be combined with carbon dioxide, mechanical ventilation in hospitals is still causing lung injury resulting from hyperventilation, i.e., the absence of carbon dioxide

He says in the same article (below) that decreased CO2 causes serotonin to leak from platelets. He gives no references, and I haven't been able to verify that (if anyone can direct me to such, much appreciated). That would have grave implications for intubated covid patients because they have elevated serotonin levels and exhibit signs of serotonin poisoning.

Leakiness, aging, and cancer

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

 

[AlbertScent5G]

There is something called the Bohr-Haldane effect, whereby an increase in the serum carbon dioxide causes a decrease in the binding affinity of oxygen to hemoglobin.
In effect, carbon dioxide is described as something which can increase oxygen delivery to tissues by decreasing its binding affinity to hemoglobin.

There are other effects related to its interaction with enzymes involved in metabolism (certain ratios of "ligands" influence the types of reactions enzymes undergo).

Another effect is that it can result in the dilation of some vessels which as a secondary effect, may increase oxygen delivery by increasing perfusion.
(Effect of carbon dioxide insufflation on free internal thoracic artery flows: is it a vasodilator? - PubMed)

1. --> I'm not certain, there is definitely individual tolerances which can develop in disease states. This is reflected in the respiration rate (which is influenced by CO2 concentration) at chemoreceptors in the brainstem. I think that there is a toxic carbon dioxide level but several factors need to be controlled and accounted for. Given the Bohr-Haldane effect, it is clear that there is a very intimate relationship between carbon dioxide and oxygen which needs to be considered when establishing toxic effects.

2. --> I don't think that carbogen is used very often in Western contexts anymore

3. --> It sort of depends on what they define to be reactive oxygen species. This isn't the best answer for you, but there are differences in categorization especially when talking about "antioxidants". This paper definitely looks at carbon dioxide metabolism from a bronsted-lowry perspective which is very understandable. It is typically the case that lewis acid-base perspectives will not be employed except for things like organic chemistry where it's used regularly, but this is the view Peat seems to prefer.

The calcification effects that the author touches on are interesting. In an acute scenario it is understood that increased CO2 can be released because of the chemoreceptors increasing respiration. In a long-term scenario, he describes adaptation by the kidney to increase reabsorption of buffers, and the bones to increase resorption to increase the serum buffers. This opens up a whole new rabbit hole of physiology that he also didn't really mention (calcium metabolism, parathyroid hormone, vitamin D and calcitriol). I would be curious to see if calcification effects would still take place if the animals had a diet which was rich in dietary buffers (calcium, magnesium, sodium, etc.).

The author neglects to mention the fact that a small percentage of CO2 remains dissolved in the blood, whereby it can diffuse into cells or other spaces, and that it can form complexes with other proteins (e.g. carbaminohemoglobin). I think that when Peat discusses beneficial effects of CO2 it might be related to these two other effects not touched on in this paper.

There is a lot to unpack in this particular article. Such is the case with meta-analysis.

The language used is very illustrative of his viewpoint. Something about how the brain vasculature reacts to carbon dioxide by "wanting to wash it away" or something.

And this gem:

"There is also evidence that the CBF response to increased CO2 is impaired in Alzheimer’s patients and that this is linked to the decline in cognitive abilities (Glodzik et al 2013) which will worsen as CO2 in the atmosphere increases"

(CO2 typically increases cerebral blood flow in healthy individuals. People with alzheimers generally display decreased cognitive abilities. Apparently there is evidence of a blunted response to CO2 mediated vasodilation in the alzheimers population. Decreased cerebral blood flow is related to decreased cognitive ability. Therefore cognitive ability will decrease in alzheimers/normal people with increased atmospheric CO2?)

I struggle with that logic.

 

[Perry Staltic]

I heard in an interview a while back that lack of sufficient CO2 in mechanical ventilation air causes lung inflammation. Ray Peat seems to echo that sentiment.

I was just listening to a RP interview and his voice makes me think he was the person in the interview saying the above. Does anyone know how I can find that interview?

 

[Peater]

Am I the only person that finds nothing relaxing about bag breathing?

(I'm not saying it doesn't work for some, wouldn't surprise me if my physiology was screwed up in more ways than I know of already )

 

[GelatinGoblin]

Am I the only person that finds nothing relaxing about bag breathing?

(I'm not saying it doesn't work for some, wouldn't surprise me if my physiology was screwed up in more ways than I know of already )

Nope. If you aren't sweating from your forehead (or feeling something pushing behind it) you aren't doing it right. I find raised CO2 in blood very, very relaxing but not lethargic. Either the bag isn't the best type for this.
For me I do "bag breathing" with 2 hands. Alps using some Baking Soda with White Vinegar (5%-30%) in a bottle, closing it, waiting a bit for CO2 to release from the Soda and then inhale it, afterwords bag breath with 2 hands slowly. Awesome awesome awesome... It cures social anxiety completely, in-general I noticed it decreasing in the past time... But this really nails the hammer. Especially after a long sleep when the body loses a lot of CO2 it is very good.

Edit: Hammers the nail...

 

[Peater]

Nope. If you aren't sweating from your forehead (or feeling something pushing behind it) you aren't doing it right. I find raised CO2 in blood very, very relaxing but not lethargic. Either the bag isn't the best type for this.
For me I do "bag breathing" with 2 hands. Alps using some Baking Soda with White Vinegar (5%-30%) in a bottle, closing it, waiting a bit for CO2 to release from the Soda and then inhale it, afterwords bag breath with 2 hands slowly. Awesome awesome awesome... It cures social anxiety completely, in-general I noticed it decreasing in the past time... But this really nails the hammer. Especially after a long sleep when the body loses a lot of CO2 it is very good.

Edit: Hammers the nail...

I feel the somewhat pleasant head 'pressure' but other than that my heart rate and breathing rate increase and it just feels like I'm running out of air

 

[yerrag]

What is confusing is, people suffer metabolic acidosis which can come from CO2 buildup. And yet CO2 buildup can be life saving. I'm still trying to figure it out.

People suffering from metabolic acidosis have too much CO2, yes. How a regular lung handles that is that it breathes out the CO2 as it breathes in oxygen. But a sick lung can't do that. So the CO2 is retained more than the body wants it retained. What is a sick lung A lung that can't do air exchange very well. via its alveolar sacs where oxygen is taken in and CO2 is released. It could be from buildup of mcous, or it could be for impaired hemoglobin or from lack of hemoglobin or from lack of red blood cells, or from very poor circulation. Many causes.

The net effect is that the carbon dioxide is too much. Too much that even conversion to bicarbonate still leaves too much CO2. This CO2 becomes carbonic acid, and is acidic. Coupled with a person's poor sugar metabolism, which produces lactic acid and keto acids - this person could suffer acidosis or acidemia, where acidosis is still tolerable and acidemia is really cutting it too close to death- where the body is stressed too much by the severe imbalance it creates.

With acidosis, the lung is the organ that acts the fastest by exhaling CO2. When the body senses there's too much acidity in the blood/ecf, it breathes more to expel more CO2. Once it senses less acidity, it goes back to exhaling less (I call it exhaling rather than breathing because it's done more to exhale CO2 than to breathe in air). If the lung is impaired, the exhaling will keep going on, as the CO2 is not being exhaled enough to relieve the stress of being too acidic. In this case, you can see that bag breathing will be counterproductive. An impaired lung will easily make a person acidemic.

Another cause of acidosis is poor sugar metabolism. When there is too much lactic acid and keto acid being produced, the ecf becomes too acidic. Because CO2, as carbonic acid, is also acidic, the way for the body to relieve the stress of excess acidity is to convert carbonic acid to CO2, and then exhale the CO2 through the lungs. Because of poor sugar metabolism, which already produces too little CO2 already, the body is also forced to exhale what little CO2 it has left - because the only acidity it can immediately expel is carbonic acid, through the lungs as CO2. This leaves the body with even less CO2. What is the implication of this?

It means that the person will have a problem with tissue oxygenation. Because the minimum amount of CO2 content in the blood is not there to help release oxygen from blood to the tissues. This leads to hypoxic conditions which doesn't go well for efficient sugar metabolism- because oxygen is deficient. So sugar is burned inefficiently, with lactic acid as a by-product instead of carbon dioxide. This becomes a vicious cycle, as remember how it's the low CO2 condition that caused poor tissue oxygenation, and it's the poor tissue oxygenation that is causing the low CO2 production.

So, if this person goes into a place of high elevation, he would have a big problem adjusting to it. While there is a richness of CO2 relative to oxygen in high elevation, the richness is not enough to overcome the paucity of CO2 in his ecf. So, the person will still be low in CO2 even as he struggles with the low oxygen condition in high elevation. So, he will struggle even more to get his tissue oxygenated. This will lead him to inhale more in order to get more oxygen, but in the process he is exhaling more carbon dioxide as well. Depending on how bad the person's carbon dioxide stores is and how badly off his acid-base balance his, he will be hyperventilating at varying rates of breathing. And this is the case with the majority of people, who are not optimal. The optimal climber has to be very healthy, acid-base balance wise, and carbon dioxide stores-wise, and sugar metabolism-wise - in order to scale the 16 peaks without the aid of oxygen tanks.

Now, couple the case of a person with poor sugar metabolism, who has high lactate and high keto acids and low carbon dioxide, with poor lungs and/or poor oxygen transport in his blood, and you will understand why very sick people breathe at a very high rate, and are even forced by the body to breathe through the mouth.

It's well to note that the lungs isn't the only organ used to regulate acid-base balance. The kidney does this job too, but the kidney has a longer response time, while the lung allows CO2 to be exhaled to relieve excess acidity. But the lungs can only do so much. It can only exhale CO2, not lactic acid and not keto acids. The kidneys do that. What is the implication of this?

A person whose metabolism isn't optimized for sugar metabolism will have more lactic and keto acids. And the more lactic acid and keto acids produced, the more likely the body's ecf will be in an acidic state as the body produces more acids than the kidneys will be able to expel. So in this constant catching up state, the body's terrain will always be acidic. And as the terrain defines your health, your health will always be sup-optimal.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Excellent and helpful analysis @yerrag Thank you.

 

[yerrag]

You're welcome!

 

[GelatinGoblin]

Good post yerrag although a bit messy.

 

[yerrag]

Good post yerrag although a bit messy.

Yup, it is a messy subject.

Figuring this out doesn't come easy. It was easier for Newton to figure out a falling people lol.

 

[Amazoniac]

Because the minimum amount of CO2 content in the blood is not there to help release oxygen from blood to the tissues. This leads to hypoxic conditions which doesn't go well for efficient sugar metabolism- because oxygen is deficient. So sugar is burned inefficiently, with lactic acid as a by-product instead of carbon dioxide. This becomes a vicious cycle, as remember how it's the low CO2 condition that caused poor tissue oxygenation, and it's the poor tissue oxygenation that is causing the low CO2 production.

Dear hematologist, wish you a great year.

That can be an elegant solution to prevent the release of more oxygen to tissues that can't use it properly, because if cellular respiration is impaired, there isn't much to do with it, more might lead to trouble and withholding would be the desirable measure. Once the condition is normalized, waste productide (CO2) starts being generated and calling for more oxygen in exchange.

Retaining waste productide should lead to a proportional increase in hydrogen craponate (HCO3), so it's increasing a buffer system's pool and the kidneys have to make up for it.

 

[yerrag]

Dear hematologist, wish you a great year.

That can be an elegant solution to prevent the release of more oxygen to tissues that can't use it properly, because if cellular respiration is impaired, there isn't much to do with it, more might lead to trouble and withholding would be the desirable measure. Once the condition is normalized, waste productide (CO2) starts being generated and calling for more oxygen in exchange.

Retaining waste productide should lead to a proportional increase in hydrogen craponate (HCO3), so it's increasing a buffer system's pool and the kidneys have to make up for it.

Not sure what's elegant about it.

A vicious cycle that makes the terrain acidic and conducive to cancer growth.

Happy New Year to you as well.