Canine (domestic) Diet - Allergic Skin Conditions

[Bumberlybee]

Reply from Ray Peat this evening in case it helps anyone else:

Hi Ray, do you have any knowledge on proper canine diets for the domestic dog? Especially one with allergic skin conditions manifesting in anal gland issues and paw biting, skin itching etc? A long shot - but maybe you have come across something?! Thanks

Ray Peat:
Yes, decreasing phosphate and increasing calcium in the diet, supplementing vitamin D, checking thyroid; cottage cheese, milk, eggs, and well-cooked vegetables are safe foods.

 

[Beastmode]

Reply from Ray Peat this evening in case it helps anyone else:

Hi Ray, do you have any knowledge on proper canine diets for the domestic dog? Especially one with allergic skin conditions manifesting in anal gland issues and paw biting, skin itching etc? A long shot - but maybe you have come across something?! Thanks

Ray Peat:
Yes, decreasing phosphate and increasing calcium in the diet, supplementing vitamin D, checking thyroid; cottage cheese, milk, eggs, and well-cooked vegetables are safe foods.

I had a similar communication in the past with Peat. All that he said worked well for us. I got an old dog running again after a few months. He could barely walk up until that point.

The key to the above I think is that you have to do all of it and not just one or two of the above. The calcium-phosphate ratio is probably the biggest from a dietary standpoint and the Thyroid is of course a biggie.

 

[Bumberlybee]

I had a similar communication in the past with Peat. All that he said worked well for us. I got an old dog running again after a few months. He could barely walk up until that point.

The key to the above I think is that you have to do all of it and not just one or two of the above. The calcium-phosphate ratio is probably the biggest from a dietary standpoint and the Thyroid is of course a biggie.

Thank you - that so good to hear. Did you ask your vet for a thyroid test and go from there? I guess they would prescribe a dog thyroid tablet if needed?

Also wondering about the vitamin D supplementation - is there one specific for dogs or is there a good source in foods for them? Obviously not oily fish given the PUFA I guess.

Any more info on the specific foods you feed and how a usual dog dinner looks in the bowl would be greatly appreciated. Our little guy loves cottage cheese!

 

[Beastmode]

Thank you - that so good to hear. Did you ask your vet for a thyroid test and go from there? I guess they would prescribe a dog thyroid tablet if needed?

Also wondering about the vitamin D supplementation - is there one specific for dogs or is there a good source in foods for them? Obviously not oily fish given the PUFA I guess.

Any more info on the specific foods you feed and how a usual dog dinner looks in the bowl would be greatly appreciated. Our little guy loves cottage cheese!

Vets are about as clueless as regular doctors. I don't invest in them for any knowledge, just particular services that I can't do. If you're new to Peat, you'll start learning how much of this you have to take into your own education and research, therefore figuring out how to get Thyroid (T3, T3/T4,) etc.

Carlson's vitamin d is fine as you can put on food or liquids.

What worked for us was having a bunch of small meals to maintain energy. Peat wrote milk, but we stuck to low fat to prevent any unnecessary fat oxidation.

Daisy's Cottage cheese was a staple for us and we always rinsed it first. That and milk were the big calcium inputs.

Cottage cheese with some well cooked veggies was often a meal for him.

I used a cronometer to keep track of a typical day's meal so I can make sure the calcium was higher than the phosphate.

We kept it simple. We built up his milk tolerance starting with a few oz per day and waiting to see how he did before we added more. Eventually he was having a cup per day spread throughout the day. We live in Florida so he needed a lot of liquids with the humidity.

A little activated charcoal once a month or whenever needed seemed to help as well.

 

[Bumberlybee]

Thank you for your reply

Yes, our vet had pretty much given up now. We’re in the UK and they have tried everything but it is all making him worse.

I’ve just returned to Peat for myself recently - I read his info a few years ago and managed to get some cynomel for myself - but only now did I come back to his writings after remembering how good it was. I’m on Levothyroxine for myself now - so I guess I need to look into me once I get the dog sorted!

Did you end up supplementing thyroid tablets for your dog? Can they take human tablets? Not sure where to start looking online.

Carlson’s D3 I have - so that’s simple. Did you do a test first or just add some? Wondering where to find dosages for dogs? Our guy is tiny - only weighs about 5.5kg.

Did you serve any meat at all or was the rinsed cottage cheese and milk enough? Bones or meats or anything like that? I’ll have a look into Cronometer- thanks for this

 

[Bumberlybee]

Oops - and eggs and fruit... our guy likes apples and pears and things. Did you use any fruits or eggs with success at all? Ray mentioned eggs but not fruit. But I saw someone else on here, who said they are a vet, talking about fruit being okay for dogs? Could be a trial and error process for us!
I’ll try one food at a time at any rate.

 

[Beastmode]

Oops - and eggs and fruit... our guy likes apples and pears and things. Did you use any fruits or eggs with success at all? Ray mentioned eggs but not fruit. But I saw someone else on here, who said they are a vet, talking about fruit being okay for dogs? Could be a trial and error process for us!
I’ll try one food at a time at any rate.

I think we used around 1 mcg of cytomel (the one I use) with food and looked for changes in energy, ability to walk, appetite, bowels, etc. Hard to make it smaller. I think with a good amount of food it'll absorb pretty safely.

Vitamin D wise, I think the children's version might be safe (400 IU per drop,) but I don't remember exactly what we did in regards to dosage.

Meat wise, we used beef liver and some ground beef depending on hunger and whatever we were personally having that day/week.

Eggs were always a success (cooked egg yolks mostly) and I believe watermelon was the main fruit he would eat in his milk.

Trial and error is best so make sure to notice typical patterns so you know when something changes. If you're like many, sometimes we look for that "magic bullet" and unfortunately, there really isn't.

Our family dog died as he was pretty bad by the time I was able to take over, but his turnaround from where he was to being able to run again, etc was a great testament to what Peat proposes. I learned a lot for any future dog we'll ever have.

Since you're in the UK, getting some red light a few times a day probably isn't a bad idea.

Think of what you would do for yourself and make it relevant to a dog.

 

[Bumberlybee]

Thanks so much for your reply - I know exactly what you mean about the magic bullet mindset! My Hubby often reminds me to be careful about looking for flat out cures for things. I have type one diabetes myself so it’s hard not to!

I have some children’s D3 on order now in coconut oil so I’ll work out a dose for the little guy.

I introduced eggs this morning and so far so good! He wolfed the little bit I gave him down. He’s is literally the best he’s ever been the last few days so it’s looking promising. I’ll keep on with the trial and error.

Very sorry about your family dog. We lost a family dog too and if I’d have known all this perhaps it wouldn’t have been such a painful ending. But we live and learn ...

Thank you for all your kind replies - very much appreciated

Red light research underway - and I’d better start working on me now the dogs doing a bit better!

 

[Bumberlybee]

Reply from Ray re: Vitamin D for dogs - just to keep this all in one place for other people:

Any recommendation on a dog safe Vitamin D (human Carlson’s?) and quantity per bodyweight? A lot of scare stories online re: kidney failure, vomiting, calcification etc.

Ray Peat:

“Active vitamin D,” 1,25-dihydroxy, easily causes kidney failure and calcification. On a body weight basis, with a good balance of calcium and phosphate in the diet, I think effects in dogs are similar to effects in people.

 

[Goat-e]

I agree with all the rest but

well-cooked vegetables are safe foods

though not ideal if you want solid pick-upable poo instead of a slippery, smelly mess...

 

[Goat-e]

Also my understanding is that dogs create D3 in their fur and get it by licking when they clean. So sunlight is probably good.

 

[Bumberlybee]

Haha I’ll have to see what a few well cooked veggies do to the poop! So far all good in that department with some raw carrot and apple.

That’s amazing if they lick it off their fur. I wondered how they managed it with their thick coats. Sunshine is easy-ish in the summer but the UK winters are a bit lacking to say the least. I’ll see about vitamin d tests with the vet and if that’s a possibility.

 

[Beastmode]

Reply from Ray re: Vitamin D for dogs - just to keep this all in one place for other people:

Any recommendation on a dog safe Vitamin D (human Carlson’s?) and quantity per bodyweight? A lot of scare stories online re: kidney failure, vomiting, calcification etc.

Ray Peat:

“Active vitamin D,” 1,25-dihydroxy, easily causes kidney failure and calcification. On a body weight basis, with a good balance of calcium and phosphate in the diet, I think effects in dogs are similar to effects in people.

Thank you for sharing. I'll file that away for my future dogs. Thankfully we didn't give our dog much then as we live closer to the equator so our dog got year around daily sun.

 

[Bumberlybee]

Yeah I need to look up and understand what active Vitamin D is properly - I think it means the stuff made in the body and that a supplement is okay. Never heard of active vitamin d before!

 

[Mito]

decreasing phosphate and increasing calcium in the diet, supplementing vitamin D

This must be well known even to commercial dog food manufacturers. All of the nutrition labels I’ve seen list the calcium and phosphorus percentage and it’s always in favor of calcium and in a more favorable ratio than cottage cheese for example.

 

[Mito]

Yeah I need to look up and understand what active Vitamin D is properly - I think it means the stuff made in the body and that a supplement is okay.

Calcitriol or active vitamin D (1,25-dihydroxy) is made by the kidneys from 25(OH)D which is made in the liver from dietary or skin synthesized Vitamin D. Calcitriol (1,25-dihydroxy) stimulates the release of calcium from bone, promotes absorption of calcium in the digestive track, and reduces the loss of calcium in the urine.

 

[Bumberlybee]

Calcitriol or active vitamin D (1,25-dihydroxy) is made by the kidneys from 25(OH)D which is made in the liver from dietary or skin synthesized Vitamin D. Calcitriol (1,25-dihydroxy) stimulates the release of calcium from bone, promotes absorption of calcium in the digestive track, and reduces the loss of calcium in the urine.

That’s similar to what I found - I’m not sure I understand what this means for supplemental Vitamin D - for humans or dogs? Is it fine as long as there’s no excess? The whole paragraph confuses me because I’m very ignorant on what is desirable with regards calcium / Vitamin D and how it works in the body. I’m still reading some of Peat’s stuff on this to try and figure it out. Please feel free to chime in if anyone has a super (explain it like I’m five years old) simple explanation of it all please.

 

[Bumberlybee]

That’s similar to what I found - I’m not sure I understand what this means for supplemental Vitamin D - for humans or dogs? Is it fine as long as there’s no excess? The whole paragraph confuses me because I’m very ignorant on what is desirable with regards calcium / Vitamin D and how it works in the body. I’m still reading some of Peat’s stuff on this to try and figure it out. Please feel free to chime in if anyone has a super (explain it like I’m five years old) simple explanation of it all please.

I checked one of the packs of dog food we have and it didn’t list the phosphorus / phosphate on it or on their website (UK brand) but it did list calcium and the ingredients - lots and lots of PUFA - soy and fish oils - which I didn’t expect in a hydrolysed & hypoallergenic food. Or maybe I should have.But we had to take our little guy off of it anyway because it was the vets last attempt at a fix but she said it seems to have made him worse. Just have to see how things go on homemade meals now and vet says she is happy for us to give it a try.

 

[Goat-e]

I checked one of the packs of dog food we have and it didn’t list the phosphorus / phosphate on it or on their website (UK brand) but it did list calcium and the ingredients - lots and lots of PUFA - soy and fish oils - which I didn’t expect in a hydrolysed & hypoallergenic food. Or maybe I should have.But we had to take our little guy off of it anyway because it was the vets last attempt at a fix but she said it seems to have made him worse. Just have to see how things go on homemade meals now and vet says she is happy for us to give it a try.

Have you tried raw? I've tried so many different foods for dogs over the years and would never feed anything else now. Natures Menu Country is really good, though there are loads of others as well. Chances are the vet won't like it (most don't) but don't let that put you off.

 

[Bumberlybee]

Thanks for your reply - we tried a green tripe to transition him to raw once but after a few weeks he wasn’t doing well still and his stools were awful. We also tried a Scottish brand of raw which he wouldn’t eat sadly. Not sure if it’s the brand you mentioned as it was a while ago. I’ll have to do some research and see how he goes on each individual food I think. Vet suggested an elimination diet to see what is going on. So far much less itching and paw biting than usual - just a bit concerned about making sure I don’t leave him short of anything nutrient wise long term.