Candida

[narouz]

My doctor recently said I had Candida overgrowth, and there are different strains. Some recent research showed that nystatin could only knock out one of them, the other three usual medicines were similar, and none of them could knock out one or two of the strains. He said to use berberine so that's what I'm taking. The pills he tried to sell me were 500mg and it looked like a 90 day supply.

In one interview I listened to recently RP kind of admitted we have to live with bacteria in the gut, sort of implying that they might as well be harmless ones.

TheBigPeatowski posted about a yeast called Saccharomyces boulardii, the idea being to displace the Candida. I found loads of studies showing benefits from it so I'm using that, too.

FWIW, fungus is one of the five kingdoms of life, and there are four phyla of fungus. Most yeast are in one phylum and then it gets really complicated.

Bing-
Very rare I would think to have found a doctor (MD I mean) who even grants the existence of Candidiasis!

Interesting about your research on the several strains of Candida and their susceptibility to Nystatin.
If you have the time, I'd like to check them out.

On the boulardii: yes, I've read about this too and it seems like a great approach--
that is if one buys into the whole Candidiasis Thing.

Yeah...The 5 Kingdoms...a good name for a pop band....

 

[tara]

My understanding of the apppendix is that it is an organ whose primary function, when all is going to design, is to maintain populations of the gut's usual benignish microbiota to recolonise the gut after it has been cleaned out or assaulted by nasty pathogens. Which is all very well if the usual inhabitants are benignish, and if you have an appendix. Without an appendix, I would guess that suitable balance would be harder to re-establish after antibiotics etc, and introducing some from external sources might sometimes be helpful.

I think thebig peatowski, when she described her garlic assault, said that garlic is one of the few things that can break down biofilm defenses to get at the forces hiding in them.

I'm not aware of candida producing lipopolysaccharides (but that could be ignorance). I think they do put out some other chemicals. They certainly produce gas (which is why it is used for leavening bread) - I think it's mainly CO2 (which is why you can use yeast for a home-made bed-bug CO2 asphyxiation trap), but could have other components too. Gas itself can cause pretty severe pain, if it can't move out freely (don't ask me how I know :)). Yeasts reproduce using estrogen, so a lot of yeast might add to estrogen burden and mess with metabolism that way too.

 

[narouz]

My understanding of the apppendix is that it is an organ whose primary function, when all is going to design, is to maintain populations of the gut's usual benignish microbiota to recolonise the gut after it has been cleaned out or assaulted by nasty pathogens. Which is all very well if the usual inhabitants are benignish, and if you have an appendix. Without an appendix, I would guess that suitable balance would be harder to re-establish after antibiotics etc, and introducing some from external sources might sometimes be helpful.

This is the way my mind was drifting on things appendix.
The body evolved to fill the Need for 'benignish' bacteria replenishment.
Maybe in the modern world for some reason that need gets elevated.
Maybe the appendix therefore gets overwhelmed with its duties.
Maybe it goes under these days a lot and has to be removed....

Mine did, and not too long after I was diagnosed as way hypothyroid.

I think thebig peatowski, when she described her garlic assault, said that garlic is one of the few things that can break down biofilm defenses to get at the forces hiding in them.

Yes, I've used garlic, and I think effectively.
But as I understand it garlic is also a strong anti-bacterial,
so...not necessarily wrong to kill fungus And bacteria
(especially from a Peat viewpoint),
but: ideally you'd be wanting to keep all the "helpful" bacteria and kill the fungi.

I'm not aware of candida producing lipopolysaccharides (but that could be ignorance). I think they do put out some other chemicals. They certainly produce gas (which is why it is used for leavening bread) - I think it's mainly CO2 (which is why you can use yeast for a home-made bed-bug CO2 asphyxiation trap), but could have other components too. Gas itself can cause pretty severe pain, if it can't move out freely (don't ask me how I know :)). Yeasts reproduce using estrogen, so a lot of yeast might add to estrogen burden and mess with metabolism that way too.

This is a good question.
The lipopolysaccharides are, essentially, The Main Endotoxin, right?
Do yeast/fungi produce those?
I don't know.

For some reason an overgrowth of yeast/fungi is generally granted to be bad....

 

[tara]

I've used garlic in the past too, and still occasionally have some, but not in the massive way tbp did. Yes, i understand it to be anti-bacterial as well as anti-fungal, and so it would reduce the bacteria too. Peat has said it's as hard on the gut as on the bacteria. So it's definitely got it's down-sides. I wouldn't recommend it generally, but I wonder if it might have a place occasionally.

I think LPS is the main endotoxin Peat has expressed most concern about. It is part of the wall of gram-negative bacteria, and is released when they die. Bacteria carried out live don't leave their endotoxin behind. I guess this is part of why 'die-back' can cause problems - a whole lot of bacteria killed and leaving their endoxin around for absorption. Some bacteria (including gram-positive) put out exotoxins, some of which can be very poisonous, while they are still alive. FWIW, wikipedia says LPS is part of gram-negative bacteria, no mention of fungii.

 

[narouz]

I think LPS is the main endotoxin Peat has expressed most concern about. It is part of the wall of gram-negative bacteria, and is released when they die. Bacteria carried out live don't leave their endotoxin behind. I guess this is part of why 'die-back' can cause problems - a whole lot of bacteria killed and leaving their endoxin around for absorption. Some bacteria (including gram-positive) put out exotoxins, some of which can be very poisonous, while they are still alive. FWIW, wikipedia says LPS is part of gram-negative bacteria, no mention of fungii.

In a book sampled online but locked from copying, Yeast Physiology and Biotechnology...

https://books.google.com/books?id=8rR-6 ... de&f=false

...says: "Assimilation of n-alkanes by yeast is via a passive uptake of the apolar substrate facilitated by special hydrophobia lipopolysaccharide cell wall structures which adhere microemulsions of alkanes."

-------

I did find this study showing another kind of component of yeast cell walls
to be quite toxic:

http://www.jimmunol.org/content/183/2/1403.full
Zymosan, but Not Lipopolysaccharide, Triggers Severe and Progressive Peritoneal Injury Accompanied by Complement Activation in a Rat Peritonitis Model1

Masashi Mizuno 2 , * † , Yasuhiko Ito * † , Natalie Hepburn § , Tomohiro Mizuno ‡ , Yukihiro Noda ‡ , Yukio Yuzawa † , Claire L. Harris § , B. Paul Morgan § and Seiichi Matsuo †

Abstract

Fungal peritonitis is an important complication in peritoneal dialysis patients; either continuous or recurrent peritonitis may enhance peritoneal damage. Even when the peritoneal dialysis catheter is removed in patients with fungal peritonitis, peritoneal fibrosis can progress and evolve into encapsular peritoneal sclerosis. It is unclear why fungal infections are worse than bacterial in these respects. Zymosan is a cell wall component of yeast that strongly activates the complement system. In this study, we compared the effects of zymosan and bacterial LPS on peritoneal inflammation in a rat peritoneal injury model induced by mechanical scraping. Intraperitoneal administration of zymosan, but not LPS or vehicle, caused markedly enhanced peritonitis with massive infiltration of cells and deposition of complement activation products C3b and membrane attack complex on day 5. In rats administered zymosan and sacrificed on days 18 or 36, peritoneal inflammation persisted with accumulation of ED-1-positive cells, small deposits of C3b and membrane attack complex, exudation of fibrinogen, and capillary proliferation in subperitoneal tissues. When zymosan was administered daily for 5 days after peritoneal scrape, there was even greater peritoneal inflammation with peritoneal thickening, inflammatory cell accumulation, and complement deposition. Inhibition of systemic complement by pretreatment with cobra venom factor or local inhibition by i.p. administration of the recombinant complement regulator Crry-Ig reduced peritoneal inflammation in zymosan-treated rats. Our results show that yeast components augment inflammation in the injured peritoneum by causing complement activation within the peritoneal cavity. Local anticomplement therapy may therefore protect from peritoneal damage during fungal infection of the peritoneum.

 

[tara]

There are a lot of different polysaccharides, and some of them are quite benign, depending on context. Starch, for instance, and cellulose - one of the key beneficially components of the raw carrot salad. Some kinds can cause problems, in the wrong place.

 

[narouz]

There are a lot of different polysaccharides, and some of them are quite benign, depending on context. Starch, for instance, and cellulose - one of the key beneficially components of the raw carrot salad. Some kinds can cause problems, in the wrong place.

Yeah...it seems the PS are okay. But not the LPS (LipoPolySaccharides).

 

[Jennifer]

I did the raw garlic protocol just like BP did and I didn't have the same results as her. It did nothing for me other than make me stink. I also experienced absolutely no intestinal pain or burning from it which I thought was peculiar given that I've been dealing with burning in my lower abdomen for years now.

BP did mention recently that she's been using a high strength olive leaf extract (swanson brand I think) with good results and I know my doctor had recommended it to me when she prescribed the anti-fungals so it could be another option to think about.

 

[artemis]

Narouz,
Are you sure it's gone, or might it just have migrated to your anal area? I ask because when mine started, it first showed up only in that area, and it felt just as you described, strangely acid-y and inflamed around the anus. Not like hemorrhoids, though. It stayed there for awhile, maybe a month or two, before it moved to the frontal groin area (now it seems the anal area is no longer involved). I don't want to belabor the point, but I just thought it might be good for you to remain open to the possibility that you may "only" be dealing with an external fungal issue, and not the (much more troublesome, I think) colon. Of course, you know your own body, and have obviously done your research, and you may very well have candida overgrowth of the colon.
But I hope not, and since it's apparently such an obscure thing (no concrete "proof"), maybe you don't.

If you have the time, could you share which oral antifungals you "test-drove?"

 

[Suikerbuik]

Wow! A lot of posts. Just my 2 cents.

It just seemed too strange to me that those palpitations
would only come about when I upped my thyroid supps.
Why not just all the time or randomly?

when your heart cells are stimulated too much/exhausted they will swell and cause inflammation. All inflammation in the heart makes the heart stiffer and causes fibrosis. As you know thyroid makes your nutrient demand bigger, especially after such high doses. Stiffness and fibrosis hinder nutrient “transport”. No doubt there will be other mechanisms at play too.

Also there a complex interplay between hypothyreodism and regulation of the active vitamin D 1,25 hormone, and also affinity of this molecule for the thyroid receptors. A possible result is that vitamin D suppletion makes you more insensitive for thyroid hormones.

Gut issues from tooth problems...?
I hope so, but just seemed too far-fetched....

Nahh, Everything in your body is connected :)

In the gut you have the GALT. Gut associated lymphoid tissue. In the mouth you do not, so microbes easily have access the bloodstream when gums bleed. How your immune system distinguishes between those microbes and the same species in your gut? Well it does to some extent because of different environment.

Also tonsils for years doctors thought they wouldn’t do anything. When you have teeth problems most often this tissue is infected too. It’s part of the immune system and research has shown that tonsils play a role in tolerating commensals.

 

[narouz]

when your heart cells are stimulated too much/exhausted they will swell and cause inflammation. All inflammation in the heart makes the heart stiffer and causes fibrosis. As you know thyroid makes your nutrient demand bigger, especially after such high doses. Stiffness and fibrosis hinder nutrient “transport”. No doubt there will be other mechanisms at play too.

This teeth + heart angle is very interesting to me, Suik,
and I very much appreciate the thoughts.
I admit I haven't thought much on this possibility.
Would this be a bacterial infection problem--periodontal bacteria?
Is that how you would speculate?
And those bacteria go to the heart?

And/or are you thinking, maybe apart from any bacteria,
that too much thyroid itself could exhaust the heart...?

Also there a complex interplay between hypothyreodism and regulation of the active vitamin D 1,25 hormone, and also affinity of this molecule for the thyroid receptors. A possible result is that vitamin D suppletion makes you more insensitive for thyroid hormones.

Interesting.
And earlier you referred to Vit D3 as an immune suppressor...yes?
Again...new territory for me.
I take it you stopped taking D3 supps altogether
and now just try to get it from the sun or other food sources?

In the gut you have the GALT. Gut associated lymphoid tissue. In the mouth you do not, so microbes easily have access the bloodstream when gums bleed. How your immune system distinguishes between those microbes and the same species in your gut? Well it does to some extent because of different environment.
Also tonsils for years doctors thought they wouldn’t do anything. When you have teeth problems most often this tissue is infected too. It’s part of the immune system and research has shown that tonsils play a role in tolerating commensals.

I don't have tonsils anymore.
Perhaps another layer of defense gone.

Suik...how might your theory play out regarding my dramatically worsened back issues and herpes?
On the back:
did you see my post about the new-ish study from Denmark
showing that 40% of those with at certain kind of chronic backache
when treated with antibiotics for 100 days are "cured" (I think that is the language).
They say the problem is the same bacteria that causes acne
getting into the soft tissue of the stressed vertebrae.
Would you see my back pain
possibly in the same light as my heart palps:
caused by my teeth problems...?

 

[narouz]

Narouz,
Are you sure it's gone, or might it just have migrated to your anal area? I ask because when mine started, it first showed up only in that area, and it felt just as you described, strangely acid-y and inflamed around the anus. Not like hemorrhoids, though. It stayed there for awhile, maybe a month or two, before it moved to the frontal groin area (now it seems the anal area is no longer involved). I don't want to belabor the point, but I just thought it might be good for you to remain open to the possibility that you may "only" be dealing with an external fungal issue, and not the (much more troublesome, I think) colon. Of course, you know your own body, and have obviously done your research, and you may very well have candida overgrowth of the colon.
But I hope not, and since it's apparently such an obscure thing (no concrete "proof"), maybe you don't.

If you have the time, could you share which oral antifungals you "test-drove?"

artemis-
It's possible, what you say--about my rectal irritation also being fungal.
Thing is, the rectal problem didn't seem the same:
no mushy, yeasty production on the skin there
as there was around my groin.
The irritation was almost entirely related to/following bowel movements.
I would have to return to the bathroom to wipe again...like a delayed seepage thing.
(Isn't this a lovely topic? :) )
As I've said, I don't think I had hemorrhoids--nothing sticking out.
But that tissue seemed inflamed and swollen. "Piles"?
I have a friend who did have hemorrhoids,
and his doctor said hemorrhoids create themselves some kind of discharge.
Maybe that is what I was dealing with and what was an irritant...?

And yes, of course, I will share my thoughts on oral antifungals.
I've been waiting to do so until I can be a little thorough about it.
I think most will be familiar--they are mostly the popular ingredients
in the better antifungals available at "health food stores."
The one I have not tried is Nystatin.
Especially Nystatin enemas.
And that is what "the Jorge guy" (see several posts above) says is crucial.

And yes, of course, this whole Candidiasis angle is all very speculative for me.
I've regarded it probably like most of us here have: as a made-up disease.
I've just, in this thread, wanted to open a discussion about it
to see what others here think, what their experiences are.

As I said above in another post,
in a general sense Peat places great importance for overall health
on the proper functioning of the intestines/bowels.
If there is a real disease in Candidiasis,
and it destructively affects the gut,
then it would be Peatian to investigate it, in my opinion.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Your questions are fairly straight and therefor a bit difficult to answer. Don’t take everything to be personal. I am not a medical doctor and don’t your real situation, besides just what you are telling me in just words.

that too much thyroid itself could exhaust the heart...?

Yes at doses you said you were taking I have little doubt.

And earlier you referred to Vit D3 as an immune suppressor...yes?
Again...new territory for me.
I take it you stopped taking D3 supps altogether
and now just try to get it from the sun or other food sources?

Yes it is and I stopped taking the stuff. I am not watching how much intake I have from foods. I eat cod, shrimps, liver, etc. and that should be fine. I enjoy sun exposure on hands and face, and in the summer arms and legs but not excessively.

Would this be a bacterial infection problem--periodontal bacteria?
Is that how you would speculate?
how might your theory play out regarding my dramatically worsened back issues and herpes?
possibly in the same light as my heart palps:
caused by my teeth problems...?

In the absence of a robust/proper immune response microbes can and will proliferate in the human body. How temperature influences this -something previously suggested to halt their growth- I don't know. Optimal temperature for these micro-organsisms is 37 degrees. However maybe and likely enzymes involved in phagocytosis for example function way better at 37C. But when these macrophages are not functioning properly, multiple reasons can cause this. I don't know how restoring metabolic function only will restore this. Anyway your body is constantly being exposed to those critters. Back pain, tooth problems, health problems and what not, are all associated with microbes. Different microbes have different places they like. Endothelial cells in the heart are a favorable place for some, whereas others prefer other organs/ tissue.

I have seen that back-pain study some time ago. If antibiotics will really cure permanently I have yet to see. Those microbes grow fairly slow.

Hope this answers your questions.. There's so much to say actually.

 

[HDD]

This is a previous post by Birdie. I don't know if you are consuming gelatin or not but I thought this was interesting.

"Unfortunately, I must limit my gelatin. It's high in arginine related to lysine, so too much and I get a herpes reaction. It's usually herpes zoster, shingles. Kept happening until I reduced the gelatin to small amount."

 

[narouz]

This is a previous post by Birdie. I don't know if you are consuming gelatin or not but I thought this was interesting.

"Unfortunately, I must limit my gelatin. It's high in arginine related to lysine, so too much and I get a herpes reaction. It's usually herpes zoster, shingles. Kept happening until I reduced the gelatin to small amount."

Thanks, HDD.
Yes, all about the gelatin and herpes thing.
Happened bigtime.
But...only after I started being unable to take enough thyroid supps to keep pulses/temps
where they should, Peat-wise, be.
Same with chocolate.
Ate a ton of both with no problem whatsoever while taking enough thyroid to maintain Peat vitals.
Just a damn mystery....

My best guess at this point:
I am simply hypothyroid
(being unable to take enough thyroid supp, as earlier, to maintain good metabolism,
because I reach some weird ceiling where the palpitations/racing/skipping start.)
And when you're hypo, many bad things happen,
including immune response going down.
Ergo: herpes outbreaks.

Another guess, Candidiasis.
Somehow causing palpitation.
And compromising immune.

Another (Suikerbuik inspired!) theory:
tooth/perio infection affecting heart, thus palpitations,
thus keeping me hypo,
thus...herpes outbreaks....

 

[narouz]

Your questions are fairly straight and therefor a bit difficult to answer. Don’t take everything to be personal. I am not a medical doctor and don’t your real situation, besides just what you are telling me in just words.

that too much thyroid itself could exhaust the heart...?

Yes at doses you said you were taking I have little doubt.

And earlier you referred to Vit D3 as an immune suppressor...yes?
Again...new territory for me.
I take it you stopped taking D3 supps altogether
and now just try to get it from the sun or other food sources?

Yes it is and I stopped taking the stuff. I am not watching how much intake I have from foods. I eat cod, shrimps, liver, etc. and that should be fine. I enjoy sun exposure on hands and face, and in the summer arms and legs but not excessively.

Would this be a bacterial infection problem--periodontal bacteria?
Is that how you would speculate?
how might your theory play out regarding my dramatically worsened back issues and herpes?
possibly in the same light as my heart palps:
caused by my teeth problems...?

In the absence of a robust/proper immune response microbes can and will proliferate in the human body. How temperature influences this -something previously suggested to halt their growth- I don't know. Optimal temperature for these micro-organsisms is 37 degrees. However maybe and likely enzymes involved in phagocytosis for example function way better at 37C. But when these macrophages are not functioning properly, multiple reasons can cause this. I don't know how restoring metabolic function only will restore this. Anyway your body is constantly being exposed to those critters. Back pain, tooth problems, health problems and what not, are all associated with microbes. Different microbes have different places they like. Endothelial cells in the heart are a favorable place for some, whereas others prefer other organs/ tissue.

I have seen that back-pain study some time ago. If antibiotics will really cure permanently I have yet to see. Those microbes grow fairly slow.

Hope this answers your questions.. There's so much to say actually.

Suik--
Thanks very much for your thoughts.
Some very different angles I hadn't been considering.

My thyroid supp levels, while high, wouldn't seem to me
to be out of line with Peat's notions about those levels.
He says to pay attention to signs like pulse/temps of course.
And to how you feel, etc.
Well...I felt good, slept good, pulses about 85-ish, temps about 98.6-99....
so...all seemed to be going fine for those good 6 months or so.
Peat says try to stay around 4:1 or 3:1 T4 to T3, and don't go over 2:1.
So, again, I stayed within those ranges.

That is not to say Peat is always right, so what I did was correct...
Just a touchstone.

But the teeth/periodontal + heart (and + maybe the backache) angle is very intriguing.
As is your vitamin D3 supp perspective.
With my big dental problems fixed
and the inflammation subsiding
and having taken a course of Amoxicillin...
I will wait and observe and evaluate...

...before pumping Nystatin enemas up my butt!

 

[narouz]

Here's another little data point regarding possible Candidiasis:

When I look down at my abdomen,
the right side sticks out farther than the left.
I'm talking about the right side from my perspective.
It has looked like that for a long time,
although when I lost weight in my 6 months of high-thyroid/high-metabolism
and my stomach was pretty tight
that distention wasn't there much if any.

That area is
where the cecum and adjacent colon are.
Where "the Jorge guy" says Candida build their Heinous Fortresses of Biofilm....

 

[narouz]

I think the single best thing you can do for any fungal overgrowth is to raise body temp over 98.6 on a consistant basis.

Dang.
What a clusterblank.
I can't raise my temps up that high because
I can't take T4/T3 anymore at high enough levels to achieve Peat temps
because I get heart palpitations.

It's a great impulse though, Zachs!
Same impulse I had.

 

[HDD]

What about with caffeine, aspirin and Niacinamide? The surrogate thyroid combo I think haidut had a thread about. Have you tried it? Or does increasing metabolism cause the heart palpitations no matter how you achieve it?

 

[narouz]

What about with caffeine, aspirin and Niacinamide? The surrogate thyroid combo I think haidut had a thread about. Have you tried it? Or does increasing metabolism cause the heart palpitations no matter how you achieve it?

Good thought, HDD.
Coffee I drink regularly.
Niacinamide at 500mg doses sometimes may've triggered the palpitations
so I''m working at getting a lower dosage.
Aspirin I take pretty regularly; they do fine.

But with those supps and with other Peat strategies/supps,
still can't crank my temp/pulses up to good Peat ranges.
Not terrible...like 97.5-98.2ish type temps
and 72-80bpm type pulses.