Candida

[narouz]

I'm going to post some of the more intriguing stuff
I've come across in my research of (the reputed) Candida/Candidiasis/Candida Syndrome.
It is probably not Peatian--some, maybe.
Probably most is not.
So...mods, if this is bad form, feel free to move or whatever.

This one comes from the familiar Mary Shomon site.
Here, she interviews a fibromyalgia doc
about his ideas on the relationship between Candida and thyroid:

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/candidayeast.htm
Dr. Michael McNett is President and Medical Director of The Paragon Clinic, a Chicago multidisciplinary clinic specializing in treating fibromyalgia and muscular pain. McNett has seven years of experience in Family Practice and over nine years in Emergency Medicine, with additional training in addiction treatment, pharmaceutical research, and integrative medicine. Dr. McNett has some interesting thoughts to share about candida (yeast) overgrowth, and the connection to thyroid problems and fibromyalgia, as well his recommended treatments, based on success he's had with his patients.

Mary Shomon: In your practice, you see many patients with fibromyalgia and hypothyroidism. Have you found that there is a higher than usual incidence of candida in these patients?

Dr. Michael McNett: Very much so. We have known for many years that hypothyroidism causes fibromyalgia; all newly diagnosed fibromyalgia patients routinely get a thyroid profile to see if this is present in them.


In my experience, many patients with fibro who have normal lab tests still have symptoms of hypothyroidism. Most of these patients test positive for candida hypersensitivity syndrome.

Mary Shomon: Do you find that fibromyalgia or hypothyroidism symptoms also improve after a candida infection is treated? Why do you think this is the case?

Dr. Michael McNett: One thing that is very interesting is that treatment for candida hypersensitivity frequently causes all hypothyroid symptoms to disappear. Because of this, I feel that when the immune system attacks the candida cell, some chemical must be released that interferes with thyroid hormone's ability to cause its effect in the cell.

Thus, at least in these patients, the sequence goes like this:

Something causes their immune system to aggressively attack candida cells that most of us tolerate
Immune attack causes rupture of the cells and release of their contents
Our bodies absorb chemicals released by the yeast, which interfere with thyroid hormone's ability to cause its effect in the cell, and
the patient develops fibromyalgia symptoms.
Thus, the candida leads to the fibromyalgia and hypothyroid symptoms.

Mary Shomon: Why you you feel this doesn't this show up in thyroid blood tests?

Dr. Michael McNett: The receptor for thyroid hormone (that protein that sits on the DNA) has several types. The type that is present in the "thyroid thermostat" (the parts of the brain, pituitary gland, and thyroid gland that set thyroid hormone levels in the blood) is a different type than the one present in the rest of the brain, skin, muscles, bones, and connective tissue. I believe the chemical from candida affects only the latter type of the receptor, so the "thyroid thermostat" is uninhibited, causing the blood tests to be normal.

Mary Shomon: What are your thoughts about how blockage of thyroid hormone's effect can cause fibromyalgia?

Dr. Michael McNett: Thyroid hormone works by binding to large proteins covering genes on our DNA. If these proteins are strongly attached to the DNA, the genes are inhibited. If the proteins lift off and expose the DNA, the genes act as a "blueprint" for making enzymes to do various functions in the cell.

There appear to be two main DNA regions covered by proteins affected by thyroid hormone. The first one covers genes for a number of enzymes involved in energy production, and, when thyroid binds to it, it lifts up, causing more of these enzymes to be made. The other covers genes responsible for the production and detection of Substance P, which is responsible for pain sensation. When thyroid binds to this protein, it sticks tightly to the DNA, reducing production and detection of Substance P.

Thus, low thyroid effect causes decreased metabolism (fatigue, poor mental functioning, etc.) and increased pain sensation. These are exactly the problems experienced by patients with fibromyalgia.

Mary Shomon: What particular tests do you use to detect candida?

Dr. Michael McNett: There are a number of tests available. You can test for anti-candida antibodies in the blood, test how much candida is in the stool, and even do skin testing for allergy to candida. Frankly, none of these tests are perfect. I've found that a simple questionnaire is as accurate as these tests, and it's free. We can still use a test, though, if the questionnaire has a borderline result.

Mary Shomon: What is the most effective approach you've found for treating candida?

Dr. Michael McNett: There are three main aspects to care. First, a low-carbohydrate diet is critical, since it starves the yeast and prevents them from growing back. Second, nystatin (or another antifungal) is used to drive the yeast counts as low as possible. I prefer nystatin to the other alternatives because it passes through the digestive system without being absorbed into the bloodstream, so there are far fewer side effects. Third, acidophilus, which secretes lactic acid and inhibits the growth of yeast.

Mary Shomon: How long do you think candida treatment is needed for it to be effective in most patients?

Dr. Michael McNett: Generally, we find that if a patient does this for six months, their immune system will start to "cool off" and stop attacking the yeast so aggressively. This allows them to get off the nystatin and start to slowly liberalize their diet. For most people with this problem, however, they can never eat large amounts of sugar, refined flour, etc., without causing their symptoms to flare up again. In that sense, it's sort of like being told that you have diabetes.

Mary Shomon: How effective is candida treatment for fibromyalgia patients?

Dr. Michael McNett: It depends on the patient. Some fibro patients don't test positive for candida; for them, it's of no benefit. Some patients respond dramatically - I even have some people who have been on disability for years who are completely asymptomatic. (One was so grateful she even called Oprah trying to get me on there!) For most of those who test positive, treating the candida will cause a significant improvement in their symptoms; usually more than they've experienced from any other fibro treatment. Because of this, I routinely give the questionnaire to all my fibro patients, and, if they test positive, it's often the first treatment I use.

Mary Shomon: There are many people out there without fibromyalgia who have symptoms of hypothyroidism (obesity, low body temperature, inability to tolerate cold, dry skin, hair falling out, etc.) and who have normal thyroid profiles. Do you believe they have candida syndrome?

Dr. Michael McNett: It's very possible. Not all people with hypothyroidism get fibro. But many people with candida get hypothyroid symptoms, whether or not it develops into fibromyalgia. If a person feels like he or she is hypothyroid but tests are normal, it would be a good idea to be checked for candida.

Mary Shomon: Could that be a challenge for some patients? Will most doctors do that?

Dr. Michael McNett: Usually not. Dr. Crook, who developed the idea of candida hypersensitivity syndrome, didn't publish his findings in the medical literature - he wrote a book instead, The Yeast Connection. As a result, he blew his credibility with most of the medical profession, so most doctors don't believe this syndrome even exists. One of the reasons I created The Paragon Clinic was to do the research that proves that this problem is real and that treating it can dramatically benefit many fibro patients.

 

[narouz]

Now...these are a little strange.
They come from a Candida forum called "The CureZone,"
which is pretty difficult to read--old style.

But there's this guy I really like there,
whose handle is "dvjorge."
His name is Jorge.
His native language is not English,
so his English is not so good.
But he writes with a lot of passion and intelligence, IMO.

I saved a bunch of his posts over there, but I didn't record URLs.
If you Google in some sentences though, I'm sure you can find the source sites.

In this one,
Jorge is responding to some doctor about some aspect of Candida:

Dr,
I respectfully disagree with some of your points in your answer.
High enemas to treat an intestinal fungal overgrowth isn't a myth. In fact, according to the testimonies left in many patient forums, it has been the only possible way to come back to normal of many severe candidiasis cases.

First, Nystatin retention enemas are well documented in the literature written by pioneers MD about this syndrome. I guess you have read some of them or all. I have read all the literature available about CRC.

If you dig Curezone archive, you will find incredible stories of recovering after doing enemas to treat this syndrome.

I will give you the reasons why they are important and you can debate them with me if you like.

First, the small bowel is almost sterile by nature. It isn't the preferred place for microbial growth when body fluids and intestinal transit work well. As you know, HCL, bile, pancreatic enzymes, and sodium bicarbonate released by the pancreas keep it almost sterile. Candida species aren't an exception. They find an hostile environment in the small bowel. I dont mean it can not be affected by a fungus growth, but if we get it in the SB, we need to think about twice the amount in the lower intestinal part. However, the colon is a preferred place for microbial growth because it is there where putrefaction, decomposition, and fermentation take place. It is documented in the books written by Dr. Truss, Dr. Crook, etc that candida overgrowth occur mostly in the colon and the lower part of the small bowel.
Let think about the limitations of the current treatment.
Most, if not all, natural or Rx antifungals are absorbed by the intestines and go to the bloodstream. Those substances haven't impact on the fungal colonies living inside the intestinal lumen since there isn't blood irrigation reaching the lumen. Antifungal substance don't have any delivery mechanism to those areas. Another point is the length of the intestines. All substances taken orally will mix with decomposed food, dead flora, and fluid forming a fecal bowl in the way of intestinal transit. It is almost impossible to take an oral antifungal, in enough concentration, that has contact with the colon walls where the fungal colonies live and be still effective. Most of these yeast colonies live on the mucous layer that protect the intestinal walls.

As you see, oral therapies have many limitations in order to be effective against an infection living in the colon lumen.

It doesn't matter if the sufferer use a purge drink, bentonite clay, or any other form of cleanse, the most effective way to target fungus living in the colon is using the shorter route, specially doing retention enemas with an antifungal substance.

I am a candida sufferer (severe case) who have had the chance of testing almost all the known avenues to treat this syndrome. My response to high enemas plus Nystatin retention enemas have been the same documented in Curezone by other sufferers with severe cases.

Technically, it is impossible to remove dead tissues, fungal colonies (?) biofilms (?)or part of the infected mucous without using the water flow and retention enemas.

The most relevant reference is the speed of recovering people experience after doing this procedure. In fact, I see no way to recover if the colon isn't treated effectively.

Both way must be used to treat a severe intestinal candidiasis. High enemas can not reach the lower small bowel, then the infection should be treated using the oral and rectal way.
The fastest release and speed toward to recover is seen after doing retention enemas.

Jorge.

 

[Jennifer]

Okay thanks, artemis!

I was just curious because your symptoms, along with narouz's are what I'm dealing with, minus the jock itch/rash. I get the rash on my face and chest. I'm waiting the results of the Genova comprehensive stool test I took. Like you, I've done it all and the stool test was my last resort. I figured that I was just shooting in the dark trying to figure out what is causing all this so hopefully the stool test will help me narrow it done.

Narouz, have you done a comprehensive stool test? The one I did checks for pretty much everything including the many strains of candida.

Also, when you upped your thyroid dose, could it have been revealing any excess stress hormones such as adrenaline that you might have been running on without even knowing it, thus the heart palps? I'm getting those too now.

Jennifer-
More comprehensive testing for gut issues was on my agenda.
I have checked for H.pylori, the cat-feces bacteria the name of which I can't remember, and parasites.
Hoping to get lucky and not have to drop such big bucks for your test.

I can't say about the adrenaline...but I did seem to be doing/feeling very well before my descent.
I didn't feel hyper or anxious.

Your palpitations, Jennifer: do they too come after taking thyroid supplements?

I did a basic stool test that checked for h. pylori, cryptosporidium and giardia and those came back negative so I went for the comprehensive stool test. I completely understand not wanting to drop big bucks on the stool test. I too didn't want to spend $500 for a stool test that could possibly turn out to be a complete waste, but I had no choice. I'm at the point where my diet consists of chicken beast, maple syrup and carbonated juice and I've dropped weight I couldn't afford to.

Like you, I get the rectal itch after going to the bathroom and thought perhaps it was from acidic diarrhea, but I also get it when I'm constipated and my UpH is high so I don't think it's an acid issue with me.

I'm not sure about dental issues being a cause, perhaps they are, but not in my case. My teeth are fine.

I also get that pain in the gallbladder area, but I've had ultrasounds done and I'm told that there are no stones blocking the duct and the gallbladder itself looks perfect without any inflammation, along with all the surrounding organs.

I had an upper endoscopy done that showed unexplainable inflammation of the upper intestines and I had the SIBO hydrogen breath test done that came back negative, but revealed that I had a lot of gas in my colon that the doctor couldn't explain why. I'm never gassy and yet there is all this trapped gas apparently. All the bubbles in my urine are proof of this and it only got worse after taking the Neomycin antibiotic. I don't get bloody stools so I don't think I'm dealing with colitis or chron's.

I get the palps when I take thyroid, yes. I also get them with the progest-e now too. I don't feel hyper or anxious either. I am a bit worried that I'll never figure this out, but I usually dance out my frustration and this clears my mind and really lifts my mood so I think I'm handling it all ok.

I just know something is not right and it's not all in my head.

 

[narouz]

Another from the Jorge guy at Curezone.
Again: that Curezone forum is hard to navigate.
I copied and saved a bunch of Jorge's posts,
but I feel I never really found a great summary post
where he gives a general explanation of his view about Candidiasis.

He is not a doctor and he frequently notes this.
I like his stuff because he is so dogged and diligent in his pursuit
of understanding (this speculative disease ).
He seems to read a lot of stuff and to sort through bs.

He also is not after money and gets very heated up about posters on that forum
who are selling stuff.
There's a Peatian connection for you!

Here is one of his posts that contains a lot of his basic ideas:

dvjorge

Hi all,
I get a lot of PM almost every day about candida. Sometimes, they are long writing about complicated health problems particular to everyone. You may understand I can not answer them because I am not a MD neither have time to do it. I have written many posts about candidiasis. My first years, I was learning many things and was ignorant and confused about many things.
People want to know how to overcome this syndrome in the same way I wanted the same some years ago.
They ask me what is my protocol but I don't have any protocol. I can mention what I think has been a key to my recover.

The secret is to attack this fungus hard in every possible way. Respect the diet. ( I didn't do it for many time and paid for it ) Don't do it yourself. The diet is very important.
Attack the overgrowth both way, rectally and orally. In this way you are covering most of the intestinal tract.
Use a systemic antifungal correctly at some point of the treatment. Better when you have some time attacking the intestines. Nystatin is a very effective antifungal. Kolorex, Garlic, Curcumin, Oregeno Oil, Cinnamon Oil, and Lauric Acid are my favorite natural antifungals. Use an enzyme such as Interfase to attack the yeast cell wall.
Enemas are vital. Candidiasis may occur
anywhere in the intestines but the colon is where the biggest overgrowth mostly is.
Don't spend your money buying pharmaceutical probiotics thinking they will resolve this syndrome. Save the money for antifungals and diet. Probiotics assist the recover of the gut flora but they don't implant permanently. Take them when you don't have more candida symptoms, at the end of your treatment. S.Boulardii is a good candidate to finish the treatment as well as a good prebiotic such as Lactofiltrum.
These are the things I think have helped me more. Over any thing, persistence. Continue, hit it night and day for all the necessary time.

Details about many things I have done are in the archives. Keep in mind I changed my mind many times during my learning curve. It is difficult but possible. Yes, very difficult for many people. A test to your endurance...

Good Luck to all you.!

Jorge

 

[narouz]

Another from the Jorge-guy.
Mods, see my earlier apologies if you consider this kind of posting wrong.

dvjorge

This study confirms what I have told many times. Oral Nystatin, even high doses, don't reach the colon with enough concentration to kill the yeast.
Nystatin is an excellent antifungal but the colon is very hard to target taking oral drugs. The only hope is retention enemas that reaches the Cecum. 12 000 000 of units given orally weren't detected in feces. This is 4 times the recommended oral dose.


Concentrations of nystatin in faeces after oral administration of various doses of nystatin.
Hofstra W, de Vries-Hospers HG, van der Waaij D.
Abstract
Nystatin was administered in ten healthy adult volunteers in increasing doses of 3 X 10(6) I U, 6 X 10(6) I U, 9 X 10(6) I U and 12 X 10(6) I U per day, each dose being given for a five-day period. Faecal samples were collected daily for the determination of their concentration of biologically active nystatin. Nystatin concentrations were determined biologically; the sensitivity of this method was less than or equal to 20 mcg/g of faeces. During the four treatment periods with increasing doses, 38%, 31%, 26% and 20% respectively of the faecal samples contained biologically undetectable amounts of nystatin. This means that nystatin is either inactivated or unevenly distributed through the intestinal contents, or both. The practical consequences of this may be that in a significant portion of the colon there is no inhibitory nystatin concentration against Candida albicans, despite treatment with as much as 12 X 10(6) I U of nystatin per day.

Jorge

 

[Jennifer]

This is probably going to sound like a stupid question, but what is a retention enema? Like a sapository? Also, do you think flowers of sulphur could be used in a retention enema?

I did oregano oil, raw garlic oil (3x a day for a week), flowers of sulphur, diatomaceous earth, berberine and none of those worked. Probiotics caused the rash to flare big time! So depending on the results of the stool test, I may just have to go with the Nystasin like my doctor prescribed me. I can't remember, but she prescribed me two anti-fungals as she was convinced I have candida and one was supposedly bad for the liver.

 

[narouz]

Another Jorge post.
This one is a little hard to figure out the context--
as I say the "Curezone" forum is hard to navigate.

But I wanted to post this one because it would seem to argue an important point:
that "healthy probiotics" do not permanently colonize the gut.

I guess I've been under the impression
that our "healthy" intestinal bacteria reproduces continually--
indeed, from a Peatian point of view,
that they OVER proliferate and are dangerous only in that regard,
not that they eventually dwindle and expire if not re-populated through diet (non-Peat).

In this post you hear Jorge getting a bit bent out of shape
because he has apparently had a hard time making his point clear.

Yes, THEY DO COLONIZE !!!
I have repeated this a million of times but they DON'T last more than 3 months. I have been in contact with the Gordon Lab that is working in the Genome Proyect. I have discussed it with people who has been investigating it for years. If I go to the Curezone archives where I have posted more than 2000 times, I can find long discussions about it with people who have dedicated years to battle candida. There is reliable scientific information in the web from medical sources that recognize that permanent colonization hasn't been proved. I have dedicated a huge amount of hours to find medical papers demonstrating possible pharmaceutical probiotic colonization that be permanent, but it isn't demonstrated. They colonize but they don't last. After 18 days of stopping supplementation they can be detectable, even after 60 days, but not after 90 days. I don't post garbage. Go to the Probiotic Organization and read about it.

It looks like my bad English isn't well understood. They DO colonize but only temporary. There aren't proves they do colonize permanently. It is a matter of time ( months at best ) that they aren't detectable in feces or biopsies. People need to know that. People need to know that the benefits are as long as you supplement them. You gonna find articles about L. Reuteri, V-299, and other species that have been detectable after 60 days of stopping them, but no longer than 3 months. They decline very fast until there isn't more detection.

An article claiming they can detect them after 18 days don't say me anything since I have read other papers detecting colonization after 60 days. What is important is they do form colonies and growth in the intestines. This is something that has to be seen in the future with pharmaceutical grade probiotic, if it is ever possible.

Jorge.

This is fragment of a Patent Production from one of the larger Pharmaceutical grade Probiotic in the world. It is 2012 patent. I am posting it, but I won't continue arguing about it or any other topic. That time already passed for me. It is your turn to find the true and the best way to recover your health. It has been hard for me and I am doing an effort to help. That is it.

[0004] The gastrointestinal microflora has been shown to play a number of vital roles in maintaining gastrointestinal tract function and overall physiological health. For example, the growth and metabolism of the many individual bacterial species inhabiting the gastrointestinal tract depend primarily upon the substrates available to them, most of which are derived from the diet. See e.g., Gibson G. R. et al., 1995. Gastroenterology 106: 975-982; Christi, S. U. et al., 1992. Gut 33: 1234-1238. These finding have led to attempts to modify the structure and metabolic activities of the community through diet, primarily with probiotics which are live microbial food supplements. The best known probiotics are the lactic acid-producing bacteria (i.e., Lactobacilli) and Bifidobacteria, which are widely utilized in yogurts and other dairy products. These probiotic organisms are non-pathogenic and non-toxigenic, retain viability during storage, and survive passage through the stomach and small intestine. Since probiotics do not permanently colonize the host, they need to be ingested regularly for any health promoting properties to persist. Commercial probiotic preparations are generally comprised of mixtures of Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria, although yeast such as Saccharomyces have also been utilized.

 

[narouz]

Finally, for now and this data-dump of Candidiasis/Jorge stuff ,
I thought I'd include this post from a happy follower of Jorge's ("dvjorge")
who goes by "thankful1."
He/she relates of success experienced following Jorge's ideas on Candidiasis,
the imaginary disease we all hate.

thankful1

I have been cured of intestinal candidiasis for so long now that I don't even think about it anymore, but I could not leave the forums without sharing my experience, as it was the meticulous Science and sharing of dvjorge that helped me find this cure after almost two years of fighting candida with no end in sight. I studied every post that he ever made so intensely, you have no idea.

In the end, what finally worked for me took only 2-3 weeks. One of dvjorge's insights was that oral nystatin in liquid or tablet form may not reach the lower intestine in sufficient concentration to eradicate the infection.

I already had 300ml of nystatin oral suspension, with an instruction to take 6ml orally twice daily. Orally this did help control the infection somewhat, but drinking gallons of nystatin for months and years was not curing the infection, and not sustainable.

Thankfully, as a retentive enema, as indirectly suggested by dvjoge, it completely eradicated my infection. For those who want the details ....

I picked up the Faultless Goodhealth Rectal Syringe from Amazon. Every morning I grabbed a 16oz red plastic party cup, filled it about 1/3 full of distilled water, added 6ml of nystatin oral suspension, sucked it out of the cup using the rectal syringe until the cup was empty and bulb was full, and standing at sink, inserted the nozzle, and squeezed the bulb to fully deliver the solution rectally. I tried to do this twice a day, but most of the time it was only once, and plenty of times I skipped a day altogether.

Since it seemed to start controlling the infection that same day, and I was already sick of the diet, I actually did not stick to the candida diet during the process. I now believe that nystatin is very powerful when applied the other way, because my routine was a bit haphazard, but it worked like a charm. Most of the time I just put it up there and forgot about it, and that was it.

Other times, I did turn upside down for as little as 5 min and at most 20 min. Sometimes I did shift to my body to the right while upside down to get the nystatin to the transverse colon, and then back again to the left to reach the rest of the colon. I think turning upside down was important at least a few times, but honestly I did not have the energy to do it every time. Most of the time it just filled the rectum and that was all the time I had to spend on candida.

I did not even finish my 30 day supply of oral nystatin, the candida went away before I was done with bottle. It's still sitting there months later. The problem in my case was that my body was absorbing virtually all of the nystatin when ingested orally. So when applied rectally, pow, no more candida. Water may have helped get the nystatin where it needed to go.

By the way, I was not able to get the nystatin compounded without sugar, so I just used the sugary stuff, banana flavored, from target. It didn't seem to make a damn bit of difference. In retrospect nystatin is very toxic to candida, and the Sugar (used to stabilize the suspension) was no help to the candida.

One note, I did see a proctologist to have a look after a few weeks when I felt it had been pretty much cured. He used a scope, and saw no signs of infection. He suggested Boudreaux's Butt Paste (also ordered from Amazon) to rehydrate the area, and I did use that for a day or two, but then never looked back. I pay as much attention to my butt today as I did before candida: which is to say, not at all.

Diet-wise I now eat whatever I want, although I am trying to stick to a slow carb diet. Sometimes I still add cayenne pepper to eggs, and non-fat greek yogurt to things in place of sour-cream, but I do this mainly because I like them. I have ice-cream in the fridge, pizza, donuts, fruit, chips, whatever. I'm cured. I watch what I eat but not because of candida.

I have to thank dvjorge for giving so much to this forum. It was his insight that put me on the right track. In the spirit of his work I had to create an account to chronicle my experience, even if it may not directly help anyone. What he showed me was that documenting one's experience may have value to the community.

Sorry to those who are suffering. I hope the light at the end of the tunnel is right up ahead for you. Best of luck to all.

 

[Jennifer]

Okay, colonization of "good" bacteria, is this the job of the appendix which we are told has no function?

 

[tara]

Narouz,

OK, so from the quotes you found, yeasts are a single-celled subset of fungii, and it seems that the definitions get a bit fuzzy when it comes to fungii that can have both single-celled and multi-celled phases, leading to some confusion.

I have heard that it is controversial whether Pasteur actually made that death-bed statement. But it is clear that there were at least others at the time who belived it to be true.

I'm sure Peat would be the first to agree that he doesn't know everything, and to acknowledge that he has changed his mind about some things on the basis of evidence in the past and may again in the future.

I agree that even if getting general conditions in the body closer to optimal makes sense, that there is still a place for tactical interventions for particular conditions, and I agree that Peat has shown such inclinations.

Some conditions may require active local intervention, either because they can kill/damage you too fast, or because they impede recovery. In these cases, tactics that may have disadvantages for general metabolism in other contexts may be warranted to get through a crisis.
IIRC, Buteyko identified some 'focal infections' that, if not addressed directly, could cause ongoing disrupton to efforts to improve the general metabolism. The examples I remember are tooth decay and some fungal skin infections. These infections can thrive in areas where the general circulation cannot easily reach to disable them, and therefore topical intervention is required.

One of the reasons i wonder about which aspects of the terrain particular conditions are vulnerable to, is because understanding that may give rise to particular short-term tactical interventions. It could be that sulphur is such an intervention. My recollection of Peat's recommendations is dabbing on the tongue to address issues on the tongue, or for systemic internal yeast infection, either 1/4 or 1/3? of a tsp orally 1x/day for 3 days, or 1/2? 1tsp once only. This might knock it way back, and give someone a break while they continue to work at other restorative measures. Since c.a. and other yeasts are pretty ubiquitous, it won't solve the problem for long unless the terrain becomes less hospitable to it. I'm sorry if I missed where you said this, but have you tried it?

It seems possible that the reason some people seem to have benefitted from fermented foods, even ones like yogurt where few of the live organisms are unlikely to survive the digestion, is because the fermentation creates acid. While Peat discourages ingestion of lactic acid because it can be a metabolic burden, it could still be that the acid makes a less hospitable ground for yeasts. Peat recommends vinegar on carrot salad for its effect on intestinal microbiota, presumably because it is acid.

There are people who promote brief periods (eg one day at a time, repeated at intervals) of stronger alkalinity to counter other conditions - cancer I think? Maintaining higher alkalinity continuously is not great for metabolism, but if it is harder on cancers than on the rest of the body, that might be why it seems to have positive effect for some people. There are other pathogens that are said to be vulnerable to altered pH - but I can't remember which direction for which ones.

Or say one of c.a.'s key weaknesses is higher temperature (I don't know that it is, just speculating - zachs above suggested this, too), either because the pathogen doesn't like the heat, or because some of the body's key defences against it work better at normal or high body temperature. Then focussing on raising body temperature consistently for a period might be a useful tactical intervention. This could involve not just the general restorative measures that generally raise metabolism and thence temperature, but could also include stronger methods to force high temps - hot showers, saunas, extra warm clothes, etc.
I'm speculating hypothetically, not particularly recommending these tactics, just using them as examples of possible tactical approaches.

It seems quite possible that human cultures that value particular bacterial cultures have done so not because the bacteria are directly good for the body, but because they are good at displacing much more pathogenic microbes. This would be very important for storage in the absences of fridges, freezers, canning, etc.

Peat may favour less abundant intestinal microbial populations, but I have not read anything from him that suggests he doesn't believe some bacteria are much more pathogenic than others, and if we are going to have microbes anyway, we are better off with the relatively benign ones, even if some of them are gram-negative and therefore give rise to endotoxins.

 

[narouz]

I also get that pain in the gallbladder area, but I've had ultrasounds done and I'm told that there are no stones blocking the duct and the gallbladder itself looks perfect without any inflammation, along with all the surrounding organs.

Jennifer-

Here is a brief post from "that Jorge guy" (see my other posts containing stuff from him)
As I've noted, English is not his language, but he does okay....:

You guys are sure you have liver pain. A pain under the right rib doesn't mean is the liver. Most of the time, candida sufferers get colon pain. Candida colonies infect the intestinal walls and produce inflammation. The cecum and transverse colon are the places where the overgrowth is bigger. The intestine produce more pain than the liver. The liver hurts when is really affected.

Jorge

 

[Jennifer]

I also get that pain in the gallbladder area, but I've had ultrasounds done and I'm told that there are no stones blocking the duct and the gallbladder itself looks perfect without any inflammation, along with all the surrounding organs.

Jennifer-

Here is a brief post from "that Jorge guy" (see my other posts containing stuff from him)
As I've noted, English is not his language, but he does okay....:

You guys are sure you have liver pain. A pain under the right rib doesn't mean is the liver. Most of the time, candida sufferers get colon pain. Candida colonies infect the intestinal walls and produce inflammation. The cecum and transverse colon are the places where the overgrowth is bigger. The intestine produce more pain than the liver. The liver hurts when is really affected.

Jorge

Right! I've also read that candida produces its own gas so if there were an overgrowth in the colon, maybe this could explain the trapped gas in my colon?

 

[narouz]

...It could be that sulphur is such an intervention. My recollection of Peat's recommendations is dabbing on the tongue to address issues on the tongue, or for systemic internal yeast infection, either 1/4 or 1/3? of a tsp orally 1x/day for 3 days, or 1/2? 1tsp once only. This might knock it way back, and give someone a break while they continue to work at other restorative measures. Since c.a. and other yeasts are pretty ubiquitous, it won't solve the problem for long unless the terrain becomes less hospitable to it. I'm sorry if I missed where you said this, but have you tried it?

tara-
Yes, I did.
(Charlie kindly sent me some!)
Just as you describe.
Tongue coating was unchanged.

It seems possible that the reason some people seem to have benefitted from fermented foods, even ones like yogurt where few of the live organisms are unlikely to survive the digestion, is because the fermentation creates acid. While Peat discourages ingestion of lactic acid because it can be a metabolic burden, it could still be that the acid makes a less hospitable ground for yeasts. Peat recommends vinegar on carrot salad for its effect on intestinal microbiota, presumably because it is acid.

Yeah, I'm with ya.
Or have been for 3 years.
Likely still am.
As I say, I'm just willing of step outside my PeatBox a bit these days.
Just briefly before I fearfully scurry back in.

I believe a lot of the world's healthiest, most long-lived people
have a diet containing a lot of fermented foods, no...?
Maybe there's something to that
and maybe Peat wasn't 100% right about ditching all probiotic foods.
What am I saying.
Forgive me...pain meds from the dental work still in my system ya know.

There are people who promote brief periods (eg one day at a time, repeated at intervals) of stronger alkalinity to counter other conditions - cancer I think? Maintaining higher alkalinity continuously is not great for metabolism, but if it is harder on cancers than on the rest of the body, that might be why it seems to have positive effect for some people. There are other pathogens that are said to be vulnerable to altered pH - but I can't remember which direction for which ones.

Or say one of c.a.'s key weaknesses is higher temperature (I don't know that it is, just speculating - zachs above suggested this, too), either because the pathogen doesn't like the heat, or because some of the body's key defences against it work better at normal or high body temperature. Then focussing on raising body temperature consistently for a period might be a useful tactical intervention. This could involve not just the general restorative measures that generally raise metabolism and thence temperature, but could also include stronger methods to force high temps - hot showers, saunas, extra warm clothes, etc.
I'm speculating hypothetically, not particularly recommending these tactics, just using them as examples of possible tactical approaches.

Yes. And thank you. All good thoughts.
I used to like saunas before Peat...I don't think he would like them...stressful.
I am aware of the ph-related threads some of you have started
and found them interesting but have not followed them closely.
I will look into that.

It seems quite possible that human cultures that value particular bacterial cultures have done so not because the bacteria are directly good for the body, but because they are good at displacing much more pathogenic microbes. This would be very important for storage in the absences of fridges, freezers, canning, etc.

Yes, and this is how I too have been regarding them for these past 3 years of Peating.
Peaking outside the box again, you know.... :)

Peat may favour less abundant intestinal microbial populations, but I have not read anything from him that suggests he doesn't believe some bacteria are much more pathogenic than others, and if we are going to have microbes anyway, we are better off with the relatively benign ones, even if some of them are gram-negative and therefore give rise to endotoxins.

Yes.
And this goes to what I've referred to as possibly a "gap," to me, in his thinking there:
If Peat does indeed agree that it is necessary and desirable to "make friends with the enemy,"
and if he sometimes endorses judicial antibiotic use...
and yet he does Not support probiotic use...
...hmmm...this hangs me up some.

Add to that something I noted in one of my most recent quotations from "the Jorge guy,"
who strongly argues the point that "helpful bacteria" do not permanently colonize the gut.
They must be periodically replenished.

Well...if that is true.
And if Peat believes it is desirable to maintain helpful gut bacteria as a counter-balance....

 

[narouz]

Okay, colonization of "good" bacteria, is this the job of the appendix which we are told has no function?

The appendix...an intriguing organ (is it an organ?) in this context of Candidiasis.

About a month after I got into Peat
I had an appendicitis and an appendectomy.

"The Jorge guy" believes (following other experts he respects) that the cecum
is Ground Zero for Candidiasis.
The cecum is the area where the appendix is.

Lot to conjure with there.

 

[narouz]

This is probably going to sound like a stupid question, but what is a retention enema? Like a sapository? Also, do you think flowers of sulphur could be used in a retention enema?

I did oregano oil, raw garlic oil (3x a day for a week), flowers of sulphur, diatomaceous earth, berberine and none of those worked. Probiotics caused the rash to flare big time! So depending on the results of the stool test, I may just have to go with the Nystasin like my doctor prescribed me. I can't remember, but she prescribed me two anti-fungals as she was convinced I have candida and one was supposedly bad for the liver.

Jennifer--
Not stupid at all!

The "Jorge guy" believes those with serious Candidiasis infestations (in the cecum area)
require those retention enemas
because going the oral route...whatever antifungal you use will not survive the trip there from the mouth.

And he advocates the Nystatin enema because he says
Nystatin does not escape the gut--as most other antifungals DO;
so it is safer for that reason.

This seems reasonable to me,
and so it might be dangerous to do an enema with just any antifungal--
because they Would be absorbed through the gut walls and go into the system,
which could be dangerous.

If you will read the last of the devoted Jorge-related data-dumps I did here recently,
it is from a follower of Jorge's who goes by "truthful1."
I think he gives a fairly faithful (to Jorge) explanation of what is involved in a "retention enema."

 

[Jennifer]

This is probably going to sound like a stupid question, but what is a retention enema? Like a sapository? Also, do you think flowers of sulphur could be used in a retention enema?

I did oregano oil, raw garlic oil (3x a day for a week), flowers of sulphur, diatomaceous earth, berberine and none of those worked. Probiotics caused the rash to flare big time! So depending on the results of the stool test, I may just have to go with the Nystasin like my doctor prescribed me. I can't remember, but she prescribed me two anti-fungals as she was convinced I have candida and one was supposedly bad for the liver.

Jennifer--
Not stupid at all!

The "Jorge guy" believes those with serious Candidiasis infestations (in the cecum area)
require those retention enemas
because going the oral route...whatever antifungal you use will not survive the trip there from the mouth.

And he advocates the Nystatin enema because he says
Nystatin does not escape the gut--as most other antifungals DO;
so it is safer for that reason.

This seems reasonable to me,
and so it might be dangerous to do an enema with just any antifungal--
because they Would be absorbed through the gut walls and go into the system,
which could be dangerous.

If you will read the last of the devoted Jorge-related data-dumps I did here recently,
it is from a follower of Jorge's who goes by "truthful1."
I think he gives a fairly faithful (to Jorge) explanation of what is involved in a "retention enema."

Ah, perfect! Thank you, narouz. I will look at truthful1's explanation.

As for the cecum, that's the exact area where I get the cramping and pain. Also, that's the area where I would get a huge lump when lying in bed at night, back when I was severely underweight during my 80/10/10 days.

Hmm...the stool test results should be interesting. God I can't wait till Jan 2. My doctor was probably right about the candida, but I didn't take the anti-fungals she prescribed because I read what Ray had to say about candida and figured it wasn't an issue like I had thought. I didn't want to cause unnessacary harm by using the meds.

 

[narouz]

...I didn't take the anti-fungals she prescribed because I read what Ray had to say about candida and figured it wasn't an issue like I had thought. I didn't want to cause unnessacary harm by using the meds.

Understand completely.
I've been proceeding similarly.
The Nystatin, because it does not escape the gut, and is not systemic...
I like that angle.
Still...it is scary putting anything up my butt.

I honestly still don't know how I feel about this Candidiasis thing.
I've just allowed myself to put it on the table for pondering.

It's like the Prez said recently about Cuba:
if you've tried something for 50 years and it hasn't worked...try something else.
That's kinda where I'm at.

I still am going to give it more time and thought.
It helps me to have others react...thus my posting of this rather non-Peat thread.

On the other hand, Peat:
1. thinks the gut is maybe The Prime organ to nurture for health, arguably
2. thinks endotoxin is often The Prime Stressor, again--arguably
3. Candidiasis--if it exists! --creates endotoxin BigTime, so...

It could reasonably be argued that this thread is indeed Peat-spirited. :)

 

[narouz]

Ditto on the jock itch -- not itchy, just red. This is actually ringworm of the groin, or tinea corporis, and is caused by the "malassezia" type of fungus. Same with the toenail fungus.

And the redness on the sides of the nose is classic seborrheic dermatitis which, like dandruff (which I thankfully don't have), involves the same fungus.

So, it may not be a candida issue at all. I really don't think I have any internal candida problem, but I may, who knows. I don't really know what the symptoms would be, nor how the different types of fungus might overlap.

There must be something internal, though, because if it's just external, then one would think that there would be SOMETHING topical that would take care of it, but alas, no, at least not in my experience. I could write a book on everything I've tried.

artemis--
Personally, I'm not sure it is ringworm or tinea corporis.
I've had ringworm, and it is very distinctive and itchy.
What I've had here recently doesn't itch terribly, though a bit.
But when I felt down there, it felt slick and kinda wet and smelled like...yeast.
It seems to be gone now.
Now that I think about, I think it stopped about the time I test-drove some natural antifungals--orally.

I'm so glad this forum is anonymous. jeez.
Then again, with Kim Jon Il up to his tricks, who knows....

 

[Jennifer]

Still...it is scary putting anything up my butt.

Umm...yep! In total agreement! LOL

It's like the Prez said recently about Cuba:
if you've tried something for 50 years and it hasn't worked...try something else.
That's kinda where I'm at.

Exactly! We can't forget the definition of insanity.

I still am going to give it more time and thought.
It helps me to have others react...thus my posting of this rather non-Peat thread.

On the other hand, Peat:
1. thinks the gut is maybe The Prime organ to nurture for health, arguably
2. thinks endotoxin is often The Prime Stressor, again--arguably
3. Candidiasis--if it exists! --creates endotoxin BigTime, so...

It could reasonably be argued that this thread is indeed Peat-spirited. :)

Anytime we think for ourselves, to me that is indeed Peat-spirited.

 

[tara]

Anytime we think for ourselves, to me that is indeed Peat-spirited.

:)