Candida

[narouz]

To the extent that the 'terrain' is important for whether candida a. can become/remain pathological, I guess pH, local food supply in the intestine, the rest of the local microbiota, mineral status of host, intestinal barrier strength, immunity, and temperature and maybe other factors, could all be relevant. If these are all optimised for our general health, maybe c.a. is unlikely to get or maintain a dominant hold. Peat's approach is to optimise several of these parameters. I wonder which ones are most critical? Eg, I wonder if anyone suffers persistent yeast infection if they can maintain their pH in the optimal range, or keep their temperature up consistently (snap, zachs), etc .

Suikerbuk and tara--

On this whole "terrain" point of view...

"Bernard was right; the pathogen is nothing; the terrain is everything."
-- Louis Pasteur's deathbed words

...of course, I agree!
We might think of this as the general Peatian strategy.
However, Peat does sometimes think tactically as well.
For example, he has said that from time to time
he judiciously takes certain antibiotics
aimed--tactically--at "the pathogen."
Or he explores certain specific supplements/chemicals (like, say, Methylene Blue)
as tactical interventions.

So I very much support the terrain approach.
But at the same time I don't rule out tactical interventions,
and Peat would seem not to either.

With Candida, what I feel I'm grappling with as "a Peatian"
(I feel kinda uncomfortable writing that, because it feels a bit cultish, but...)
is the possibility that Peat might have a blindspot.
The remote chance that he might not know Everything!
Heretical, I know!, but there you have it.

I've wrestled in another thread...
http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4790&hilit=antibiotics+gap
...with the possibility of such a blindspot or "gap."

Consider:
1. Peat has said sterile gut mice do great...
2. ...until they have to live in the real world where they encounter bacteria/fungi, etc
3. so, if we're to live in the real world, we best make friends with them.
4. However, he's okay with occasional careful use of antibiotics while...
5. ...at the same time recommending against probiotics, and says...
6. ...if you think you have yeast troubles, take a few dabs of sulfur on the tongue.

Bearing that chain of reasoning in mind,
I'm open to the possibility that Peat might not be the Final Word
on the existence of, nature of, possible dangers of, and treatment options for Candida.

In that kind of context,
think about this little bit I happened across
while researching Pasteur and Bernard...

http://www.culinaryreformation.com/germ-vs-terrain-theory/
It used to be more understood, prior to Pasteur’s movement, that there is a beneficial relation between our bodies and the microbial world. This is why traditional peoples let their food ferment or preserve in the forms of yogurt, sauerkraut, sourdough, cod liver oil, cured bacon, pemmican, and so much more. Good bacteria was encouraged–and valued.

Now, in modern times–apart from the sustainable food movement–the whole food industry, not to mention hospitals, prides itself on sterilization. That is Pasteur’s legacy–to wage war on the microbial world.

...Peat's general take on fermented foods
is to strongly avoid them--lactic acid.
On the other hand...they do fit in with "the terrain" Gestalt....

 

[Suikerbuik]

Vitamin D is a tough subject to say anything specific about really.. 25-hydroxyvitamin D likely has immunosuppressive properties.

But I have some numbers that may indicate what's going on. If these are vitamin D related no one, including me, won't know.
Anyway I have had my sIgA measured a few times. sIgA is a sign of mucousal immunity. They were below normal 405 and 180 (range 512 - 2040 or something forgot units). between these measurements I start using vitamin D supplements on doctor's advice. Things went better initially but were getting worse as time passed by. I weaned of all vitamin D supplements and had a same kind of test 2 years later, after having avoided vitamin D for like 1,5 years. This time the sIgA was 4000. Above reference and indicating infection, but at least the body was/is now capable of inflicting a response and suppressing the growth of nasties.

The symptoms are hard to describe, it's a feeling merely, but flatulence after having carbs is one. Weird constipation accompanied by eczema is a second. But most intruiging is based on some (not validated though) spit test. Highly positive when I am on vitamin D stuff and wears off after discontinuing vitamin D.

Really hard to say whether these are purely candida ofcourse. We won't know, but I know everyone harbours this yeast, and testing will only be highly positive in regular settings when you're as immuno compromised as HIV patients or patients receiving chemotherapy. There must be something in the split test however.

 

[pboy]

I woudnt consider it. Its just something that will tie you up. The more you just focus on metabolic energy and balance, all organ systems heal. I agree with Peat and even AMA if that is what they say that its an overblown thing to get at peoples wallets. I mean people have made millions off of 'candida' programs, when they clearly recommend an inferior diet, and most living fermented vegetables! (see the outrageousness). Even if you do have too much growth, it rarely eevr gets much into the small intestine even, and if it does, Peat says just avoid slow to digest starches and eat raw carrots daily and it will go back down, and only reside in colon. To be honest, it is in fact just a tie up mentally, like you should focus on other things, don't even consider gut bacteria at all to behonest, only consider inflammatory substances, which yeasts and bacteria produce aka don't eat fermented foods, and you reduce your risk of excess endotoxin by not eating slow to digest starches, but even if you did most people don't have any bacteria in their small intestine at all, and the fermenting in the colon just happens anyways...though from my perspective even that is bad. Don't mess with anti or pro biotics man, just focus on healthy thyroid and immune system, and the GI will take care of itself

 

[Suikerbuik]

Hehe narouz, I think so too and have also made a comment on this somewhere. I am sure that Peat has no complete picture of how life operates, let alone when it is stressed and diseased. This is not a shame. I know he himself will admit this. I think it's people that feed the image that he does so.
Also the gc-maf someone recently mentioned indicates that Peat is indeed looking for new strategies and understanding. But we can't call it a blind spot I think, Peat is too intelligent to have blind spots if you ask me, but science is a moving target and it is still moving as time passes by right now.

The antibiotics.. I don't know you know.. it's a tactical intervention just as you said and can be helpful in emergency. Also be aware that most antibiotics have widespread effects on other tissue as well and may do permanent damage. And in people, although they give relief, don't permanently solve your issues. Likely because they only primarily affect those micro-organisms residing in your gut which will repopulate anyway.

Probably micro-organisms are part of life true but, this is something that is unclear yet. At least there is a study showing that living microbes can and will be find in living breast tissue without inflicting any immune response (with altered composition during cancer). If they live in (or around??) those fat cells why not in other tissue - abdominal fat cells? (they're found in IBD).

Even though we know all this, it's still key to not focus on this. I'd rather focus on environmental toxins that you will find EVERYWHERE around you and in you that promote disease. Inflammation in fat bodies in drosophila has been shown to induce immunosenescense and resulating hyperplasia of the gut. Guess where a lot of your toxins go..?

 

[Suikerbuik]

The only thing that may be promising is replacing your microbiome with a whole healthy microbiome. Providing that you improve your other weaknesses as well. But this is still preliminary, and ungrounded territory.

 

[narouz]

Vitamin D is a tough subject to say anything specific about really.. 25-hydroxyvitamin D likely has immunosuppressive properties.

But I have some numbers that may indicate what's going on. If these are vitamin D related no one, including me, won't know.
Anyway I have had my sIgA measured a few times. sIgA is a sign of mucousal immunity. They were below normal 405 and 180 (range 512 - 2040 or something forgot units). between these measurements I start using vitamin D supplements on doctor's advice. Things went better initially but were getting worse as time passed by. I weaned of all vitamin D supplements and had a same kind of test 2 years later, after having avoided vitamin D for like 1,5 years. This time the sIgA was 4000. Above reference and indicating infection, but at least the body was/is now capable of inflicting a response and suppressing the growth of nasties.

The symptoms are hard to describe, it's a feeling merely, but flatulence after having carbs is one. Weird constipation accompanied by eczema is a second. But most intruiging is based on some (not validated though) spit test. Highly positive when I am on vitamin D stuff and wears off after discontinuing vitamin D.

Really hard to say whether these are purely candida ofcourse. We won't know, but I know everyone harbours this yeast, and testing will only be highly positive in regular settings when you're as immuno compromised as HIV patients or patients receiving chemotherapy. There must be something in the split test however.

Very interesting, Suiker.
Was it Vit D3 you were taking?
How much sun were you getting during those eras?
The sigA test and "muscousal immunity"...
I don't know anything about these, but I'll have to check them out.

My big Vitamin D3 experience was this:
I started having this weird response to my T4/T3 supplements about 3/4 of a year ago:
I can't take as much as I used to with good results, temps, pulses, etc,
because I get palpitations, racing, skipping, etc.

Tried a lot of things, but big doses of Vitamin D3 helped dramatically and instantly.
Didn't get rid of the problem, but...definitely helped....

 

[narouz]

I woudnt consider it. Its just something that will tie you up. The more you just focus on metabolic energy and balance, all organ systems heal. I agree with Peat and even AMA if that is what they say that its an overblown thing to get at peoples wallets. I mean people have made millions off of 'candida' programs, when they clearly recommend an inferior diet, and most living fermented vegetables! (see the outrageousness). Even if you do have too much growth, it rarely eevr gets much into the small intestine even, and if it does, Peat says just avoid slow to digest starches and eat raw carrots daily and it will go back down, and only reside in colon. To be honest, it is in fact just a tie up mentally, like you should focus on other things, don't even consider gut bacteria at all to behonest, only consider inflammatory substances, which yeasts and bacteria produce aka don't eat fermented foods, and you reduce your risk of excess endotoxin by not eating slow to digest starches, but even if you did most people don't have any bacteria in their small intestine at all, and the fermenting in the colon just happens anyways...though from my perspective even that is bad. Don't mess with anti or pro biotics man, just focus on healthy thyroid and immune system, and the GI will take care of itself

I know, pboy.
Solid advice, and it basically represents the overall approach I've been using for the past 3 years.
And I do thank you.

Problem is:
something's not working.

And so, there arises the opening:
do I dare to go outside the Peat Box I've made for myself
and lived within for these last years?

A Peat Box is a damn fine box!
Still...a box.
Actually, I'm sure Peat would turn my words around
and re-emphasize that it is a box of my own making--not his.

You know, we all tend to have better knowledge of stuff we deal with closely in our own lives.
It seems possible to me that Peat has a very strong and healthy gut,
and therefore has simply not dealt first-hand with...
"candida-like symptoms"--let's call it that
since we can't even seem to know with any certainty at all
if the disease "Candida" actually exists!

(It would seem--wouldn't it?--
that with all the colonoscopies done every year,
that doctors could simply SEE these reputed
thriving and resistant colonies of yeast up, supposedly, in the upper colon.... )

 

[artemis]

This tread has been very thought-provoking. Thank you, narouz.

It's easy to say "don't worry about it" if you're not dealing with it directly. In my case, it manifests as a very visible (and embarrassing) couple of areas on the exterior of my body, and it has affected my life considerably over the past year.

Of course, as I said earlier, I'm pretty sure I'm dealing with a different type of fungus (but surely they're all related in some way)

 

[narouz]

This tread has been very thought-provoking. Thank you, narouz.

It's easy to say "don't worry about it" if you're not dealing with it directly. In my case, it manifests as a very visible (and embarrassing) couple of areas on the exterior of my body, and it has affected my life considerably over the past year.

Of course, as I said earlier, I'm pretty sure I'm dealing with a different type of fungus (but surely they're all related in some way)

artemis--
I have also had external manifestations of yeast infection, I believe.
-"Jock Itch"--not really very itchy but forming that classically yeasty smelling buildup.
OTC Jock Itch medications didn't do much
-looks like one of my toenails has some kind of fungus
-I've had for the last several months some kind of slight reddening/itch
of the areas beside my nose...don't know what this is

Those formed a possible clue, for me, to consider internal fungal overgrowth.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Very interesting, Suiker.
Was it Vit D3 you were taking?
How much sun were you getting during those eras?
The sigA test and "muscousal immunity"...
I don't know anything about these, but I'll have to check them out.

My big Vitamin D3 experience was this:
I started having this weird response to my T4/T3 supplements about 3/4 of a year ago:
I can't take as much as I used to with good results, temps, pulses, etc,
because I get palpitations, racing, skipping, etc.

Tried a lot of things, but big doses of Vitamin D3 helped dramatically and instantly.
Didn't get rid of the problem, but...definitely helped....

Yes, the D3 form. And moderate sun exposure - certainly not excessive.

What dose T4/T3 was causing issues? And how much T4/T3 can you take now? Do you see improvements in temps and pulses now you're able to increase thyroid dose? And do you have teeth/gum problems?

 

[narouz]

I recently finished a week's worth of Amoxicillin
for a pretty bad tooth problem/inflammation/possible infection.
(Normally I would probably skip the antibiotic,
but I wanted to try it for some reasons maybe I'll go into in another post.)

So I finished the antibiotics about a week ago,
and after a day or so started feeling pretty crappy:
very fatigued, weird bloated feeling in my guts.
Could've had other explanations, I know,
but I thought:
"Okay, after a round of antibiotics is when Candida reputedly erupts.
Maybe that's it."

So I took a pretty strong dose of Pau D'Arco around noon--Thursday.
About an hour later the upper-right quadrant of my abdomen
got really ache-y and stayed that way until I went to bed.
The ache was gone when I got up
and I felt a bit better in terms of the general, post-antibiotic crappiness I noted above.

Again, and of course: who knows?
But Pau D'Arco is supposed to attack Candida very well.
And some of the more convincing "experts" I've read
believe the upper colon is the primary habitat of Candida,
and furthermore that the pain many experience in dealing with Candida
is not located in the liver--also upper right quadrant--
but rather coming from the upper colon....

I really do know this proves nothing. Just thought I would add it for what it's worth.

 

[Suikerbuik]

I think your teeth issues cause inflammation in your heart (endothelial cells) and result in palpitations, racing, skipping, etc. The vitamin D is just masking this like any immunosuppressive drug is supposed to do.

What about?:

What dose T4/T3 was causing issues? And how much T4/T3 can you take now? Do you see improvements in temps and pulses now you're able to increase thyroid dose?

 

[artemis]

Ditto on the jock itch -- not itchy, just red. This is actually ringworm of the groin, or tinea corporis, and is caused by the "malassezia" type of fungus. Same with the toenail fungus.

And the redness on the sides of the nose is classic seborrheic dermatitis which, like dandruff (which I thankfully don't have), involves the same fungus.

So, it may not be a candida issue at all. I really don't think I have any internal candida problem, but I may, who knows. I don't really know what the symptoms would be, nor how the different types of fungus might overlap.

There must be something internal, though, because if it's just external, then one would think that there would be SOMETHING topical that would take care of it, but alas, no, at least not in my experience. I could write a book on everything I've tried.

 

[Jennifer]

Have you guys taken a comprehensive stool test?

 

[artemis]

Jennifer -
No, I don't think I've ever had a stool test.

 

[narouz]

Very interesting, Suiker.
Was it Vit D3 you were taking?
How much sun were you getting during those eras?
The sigA test and "muscousal immunity"...
I don't know anything about these, but I'll have to check them out.

My big Vitamin D3 experience was this:
I started having this weird response to my T4/T3 supplements about 3/4 of a year ago:
I can't take as much as I used to with good results, temps, pulses, etc,
because I get palpitations, racing, skipping, etc.

Tried a lot of things, but big doses of Vitamin D3 helped dramatically and instantly.
Didn't get rid of the problem, but...definitely helped....

Yes, the D3 form. And moderate sun exposure - certainly not excessive.

What dose T4/T3 was causing issues? And how much T4/T3 can you take now? Do you see improvements in temps and pulses now you're able to increase thyroid dose? And do you have teeth/gum problems?

Suik--
I had a cool phase with Peating starting in the summer of 2014
and lasting until the first months of 2015.

I was eating a very strict and optimal Peat diet
of ripe Peatian fruits, milk and cheese, gelatin, a little good beef and liver,
some oysters/shrimp, some eggs, etc.
Plenty of sun.

I was taking about 180mcg T4 (from CynoPlus)
and about 75 mcg T3 (from CynoPlus and Cytomel).

I know...that was a lot.
But I was feeling good and sleeping well
and
I had lost the weight I'd gained over my initial 2 years of Peating,
going down from 200lbs to 175lbs.

Then something changed.
When I would take even a fraction of that dosage above of my thyroid supps,
I would experience pretty extreme palpitations, racing, skipping, etc.
D3 and magnesium helped control that,
but so far my ceiling for thyroid supp is at about 75mcg T4, 25mcg T3.

During the approximately 6 months at that level
my temps linger in the mid- to high 97's to low 98's.
My pulse in seventies to low 80's.
(Both had been more Peat-optimal before: pulse in high 80's low 90's,
temp 98.6 plus).

I've felt hypo, but if I try to increase thyroid supps I get the palpitations.

Weight has returned.
I have herpes, but very rarely manifested until things changed re the palpitations.
I would, in the past, have one or two outburst per year.
Now it erupts almost every other week.

I've had some chronic back problems for decades,
but had still been able to sprint, lift weights, do yoga fine.
Sometime after the palpitations began and I wasn't able to take high levels of T4/T3,
I got this very inflamed, different kind pain
in all the areas of my lower back where I had long had some aches before,
but now it became very strong.
It was something I could not stretch/do yoga to release.
In fact, stretching made it worse.
There seemed to be a new tissue inflammation problem.

With all of that bad stuff, I've evolved a few working theories:

1. With the high T4/T3 doses,
I raised my metabolism,
but I outstripped the nutrients necessary to stoke it--
maybe protein, magnesium, other stuff.

2. The bad downturn is simply a result of me returning to a hypothyroid state,
because unable to take enough T4/T3

3. A recent study--and from all accounts a good one--from Denmark,
shows that 40% of people with chronic lower back pain
are cured by 100 days of antibiotic treatment.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/07/antibiotics-cure-back-pain-patients
Apparently a common type of bacteria that causes acne
is found in soft tissue of many with chronic low back aches.

I've speculated that my dramatically worsened lower backache
could be caused by such a bacterial infection.
It feels like something like that--not mechanical.
(On the other hand, my back problems, like my herpes worsening,
could simply be because I am hypothyroid,
and things go wrong when you're hypo....)

4. I have Candidiasis,
and the endotoxin from that,
centered in the upper colon
(which happens to be adjacent to most of my back acheyness).

This speculative Candidiasis infection has been a drag on my health in general,
has lowered my immunity overall--thus the increased herpes--
and has in some mysterious way caused the palpitations when trying to dose out of hypothyroidism...

Yes, it all sounds a bit addled when I type it out.
But that is sortuv where I'm at now.
If you or anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear....

Otherwise, I likely will experiment with Nystatin enemas and other anti-Candida supplements,
and/or
the one-hundred days of Augmentin (amoxicillin + clavulanic acid)

 

[narouz]

I think your teeth issues cause inflammation in your heart (endothelial cells) and result in palpitations, racing, skipping, etc. The vitamin D is just masking this like any immunosuppressive drug is supposed to do.

What about?:

What dose T4/T3 was causing issues? And how much T4/T3 can you take now? Do you see improvements in temps and pulses now you're able to increase thyroid dose?

Suik--
This would've been my #6 or whatever Hare-Brained Theory in my last post,
but it has seemed so silly I didn't even want to commit it to print!

I've had 2 troubled teeth in my upper left rear for years.
One had been very loose and little chance of recovery--bone recession.
The other, nearby, I found was cracked, intermittently painful for years,
and recently started going dead.

About a month ago I noticed that I felt a twinge in my left temple
(above the bad teeth area)
when I rubbed my fingers across it.
And that rubbing also caused an almost electrical shock feeling down
through the left side of my tongue and jaw.
At some point there was some kind of weird, seemingly related flare-up
where I felt pain in a lot of other teeth.
That subsided.

Over the last 2 weeks I had the loose tooth pulled,
and the other root-canal-ed.

There apparently was a lot of inflammation,
because now several days after the last of the dental work
I still have a bit of pain and the temple-twinging is still there.

I have heard about the link between gum disease and heart disease.
So...yes, a good theory about the palpitations.
It just seemed too strange to me that those palpitations
would only come about when I upped my thyroid supps.
Why not just all the time or randomly?

Oh well...thank you for putting your mind to all this clutter.
I hope you're right!

 

[Jennifer]

Okay thanks, artemis!

I was just curious because your symptoms, along with narouz's are what I'm dealing with, minus the jock itch/rash. I get the rash on my face and chest. I'm waiting the results of the Genova comprehensive stool test I took. Like you, I've done it all and the stool test was my last resort. I figured that I was just shooting in the dark trying to figure out what is causing all this so hopefully the stool test will help me narrow it done.

Narouz, have you done a comprehensive stool test? The one I did checks for pretty much everything including the many strains of candida.

Also, when you upped your thyroid dose, could it have been revealing any excess stress hormones such as adrenaline that you might have been running on without even knowing it, thus the heart palps? I'm getting those too now.

 

[narouz]

Have you guys taken a comprehensive stool test?

I didn't have a comprehensive stool test, Jennifer.
But I checked stool for H. pylori.
Did blood test for parasites.
And then a blood test for...forget the name...the bacteria one gets from cats.

Just kinda sporadically and desperately shooting in the dark ,
hoping to turn something up.

But this reminds me of probably the main symptom in my retrograde health over the past half-year+:
A very irritated rectal area after pooping, as if the feces is acidic or otherwise irritating.
And not exactly hemorrhoids, but swollen tissue there.
So...something going wrong with my guts,
despite my best and strictest Peat eating efforts.

Suikerbuik thinks everything might be related to my bad teeth (see other post).
Gut issues from tooth problems...?
I hope so, but just seemed too far-fetched....

 

[narouz]

Okay thanks, artemis!

I was just curious because your symptoms, along with narouz's are what I'm dealing with, minus the jock itch/rash. I get the rash on my face and chest. I'm waiting the results of the Genova comprehensive stool test I took. Like you, I've done it all and the stool test was my last resort. I figured that I was just shooting in the dark trying to figure out what is causing all this so hopefully the stool test will help me narrow it done.

Narouz, have you done a comprehensive stool test? The one I did checks for pretty much everything including the many strains of candida.

Also, when you upped your thyroid dose, could it have been revealing any excess stress hormones such as adrenaline that you might have been running on without even knowing it, thus the heart palps? I'm getting those too now.

Jennifer-
More comprehensive testing for gut issues was on my agenda.
I have checked for H.pylori, the cat-feces bacteria the name of which I can't remember, and parasites.
Hoping to get lucky and not have to drop such big bucks for your test.

I can't say about the adrenaline...but I did seem to be doing/feeling very well before my descent.
I didn't feel hyper or anxious.

Your palpitations, Jennifer: do they too come after taking thyroid supplements?