Can you increase the demand for fat in the body?

mondocool239

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I have tried extended fasting a handful of times and found it to be a miserable experience. I conclude from this that the body does not store fat in order to use it as a reserve energy source. Therefore its purpose must be as a reserve source for raw materials. Raw materials used in the maintenance of soft tissue.

What is a good estimate of the bodies daily demand for these raw materials? 50-100 grams?

If correct then the 20kg of excess fat I have to lose should take 200-400 days if I stick to a diet of skim milk and orange juice which avoids consuming new fat. That would be 1-3kgs of fat loss in a month, which would not be very visible on a scale if I would also be increasing lean mass at the same time.

I wonder if there are ways to increase the bodies demand for fat? Body builders increase demand for protein by intentionally damaging their lean tissue with exercise. Is it possible to intentionally damage soft tissue and force a higher rate of regeneration and increase daily demand for fat?
 

miquelangeles

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There are supplements called "lipotropic factors" usually containing choline, inositol and L-methionine, supposedly improving fat metabolism.
Methionine is not "peaty" though.
 

Frostee

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Extended fasting sucks for everybody. Just because it sucks doesn't mean the body doesn't store fat to use as energy at a later date. There are also other unpleasant experiences to prevent you from doing stupid things to yourself because they invoke pain.

You're also 100 years behind the idea of energy balance. You don't have to damage fat to get rid of it, just eat less. You really forgot the basics here using very bad logic.
 
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I have tried extended fasting a handful of times and found it to be a miserable experience. I conclude from this that the body does not store fat in order to use it as a reserve energy source. Therefore its purpose must be as a reserve source for raw materials. Raw materials used in the maintenance of soft tissue.

What is a good estimate of the bodies daily demand for these raw materials? 50-100 grams?

If correct then the 20kg of excess fat I have to lose should take 200-400 days if I stick to a diet of skim milk and orange juice which avoids consuming new fat. That would be 1-3kgs of fat loss in a month, which would not be very visible on a scale if I would also be increasing lean mass at the same time.

I wonder if there are ways to increase the bodies demand for fat? Body builders increase demand for protein by intentionally damaging their lean tissue with exercise. Is it possible to intentionally damage soft tissue and force a higher rate of regeneration and increase daily demand for fat?

Muscles use fat, so the more muscles you have the more fat you can afford to eat. If you have no muscles then your body hangs on to fat.

"In the resting state, muscles consume mainly fats, so maintaining relatively large muscles is important for preventing the accumulation of fats."-Ray Peat
 

Sefton10

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Muscles use fat, so the more muscles you have the more fat you can afford to eat. If you have no muscles then your body hangs on to fat.

"In the resting state, muscles consume mainly fats, so maintaining relatively large muscles is important for preventing the accumulation of fats."-Ray Peat
Ray doesn’t have much muscle though. It’s my guess thyroid and coffee go some way to making up for this.
 

LLight

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With intermittent dry fasting.

Fat is mobilized by glucagon (which is considered a stress hormone here, but which tended to increase lifespan and "physiology" of Drosophila flies).

Contact with water (in your mouth for example) could lower glucagon production during fasting.


Combined with this one: A nutrient-responsive hormonal circuit controls energy and water homeostasis in Drosophila

I think having a rhythmicity of water consumption is important to have fat release during fasting and "improved" gut motility when eating/drinking.

PS: add this one too even if oxytocin is also considered bad here.
 

Sefton10

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You know what would be cool to see? Peat injecting T or doing TRT or Trenbolone to make himself jacked like a bodybuilder.
I'm sure I heard him say in an interview once he does some sort of strength test every 10 years or so to check he's still in shape and he's always maintained his level :tearsofjoy:
 

LLight

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Together, these results suggest that loss of ppk28 function may drive the production of metabolic water through a glucagon-like AKH-dependent mobilization of lipid stores as a compensatory response to the absence of sensory information pertaining to accessible water.
 
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Ray doesn’t have much muscle though. It’s my guess thyroid and coffee go some way to making up for this.
Well he is 85, and being that a body cannot use protein as efficienty in older years he is lucky to not be too skinny living on skim milk and orange juice. Being that muscles are bulky and can be mistaken for fat in clothes, most people prefer the lean look. I know I never liked having them until recent years.
 

baccheion

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Melatonin (night) and DHEA (morning) shift toward fat usage/depletion. May be counter to the Ray Peat approach. Saturated fats are used exclusively for heat generation.

Sustained-release melatonin + DHEA is the original antiaging combo and is what got Life Extension Foundation its start. They both decline with age and is a large reason people lose ability to stay lean without effort. There is also the fall of IGF-1 after teens which seemingly leads to a rise in.. estrogen? Melatonin, DHEA, iodine (protocol), calcium, etc oppose estrogen. More magnesium is correlated with higher DHEA and IGF-1, maybe due to lowering inflammation and other things.

What is your body fat percentage and did you consume salt/electrolytes while fasting?
 

Hans

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Aug 24, 2017
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I have tried extended fasting a handful of times and found it to be a miserable experience. I conclude from this that the body does not store fat in order to use it as a reserve energy source. Therefore its purpose must be as a reserve source for raw materials. Raw materials used in the maintenance of soft tissue.

What is a good estimate of the bodies daily demand for these raw materials? 50-100 grams?

If correct then the 20kg of excess fat I have to lose should take 200-400 days if I stick to a diet of skim milk and orange juice which avoids consuming new fat. That would be 1-3kgs of fat loss in a month, which would not be very visible on a scale if I would also be increasing lean mass at the same time.

I wonder if there are ways to increase the bodies demand for fat? Body builders increase demand for protein by intentionally damaging their lean tissue with exercise. Is it possible to intentionally damage soft tissue and force a higher rate of regeneration and increase daily demand for fat?
Before you want to do things to lose weight, make sure your thyroid and androgens are in a good place.

Then starting lifting x2-3 per week, try walking on a daily basis, get lots of sunlight, focus on your sleep and do proper breathing. Then you should be good.
 

mondocool239

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There are supplements called "lipotropic factors" usually containing choline, inositol and L-methionine, supposedly improving fat metabolism.
Methionine is not "peaty" though.
I have consumed plenty of raw eggs over the last 6 months, it has made me feel a lot healthier in general. Whether that is the choline promoting proper circulation of fats in the system, or the cholesterol allowing for more hormone production, or something else I have no idea. I guess I will continue that whilst trying this low fat diet.
Before you want to do things to lose weight, make sure your thyroid and androgens are in a good place.

Then starting lifting x2-3 per week, try walking on a daily basis, get lots of sunlight, focus on your sleep and do proper breathing. Then you should be good.
I understand the simplistic model, of infra-red light + sugar + oxygen for electrical energy to power the bodies processes. And that industrial PUFA is a primary culprit in interfering with this energy production at the microscopic level. I am applying this knowledge now and I feel better. I am interested in what it requires to get rid of stored fat, as I am now not doing a CICO approach and attempting to burn fat for electrical energy.
Extended fasting sucks for everybody. Just because it sucks doesn't mean the body doesn't store fat to use as energy at a later date. There are also other unpleasant experiences to prevent you from doing stupid things to yourself because they invoke pain.

You're also 100 years behind the idea of energy balance. You don't have to damage fat to get rid of it, just eat less. You really forgot the basics here using very bad logic.
This opinion seems very out of sync with what I have read on this forum. 8 years ago I personally lost 25kg using calorie restriction and strength training, which I regained when I lost motivation over some personal issues. Last year I lost 11kgs rather rapidly experimenting with a fasting regime, that I put back on as soon as I stopped. Neither of these weight loss periods made me very lean, only smaller.
 

mondocool239

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Muscles use fat, so the more muscles you have the more fat you can afford to eat. If you have no muscles then your body hangs on to fat.

"In the resting state, muscles consume mainly fats, so maintaining relatively large muscles is important for preventing the accumulation of fats."-Ray Peat
Not really sure what the action is here. This sounds reducible to being about body size, the bigger you are the more material you need to consume to sustain yourself. I would imagine if muscle had a significant effect then body builders would not need to resort to drugs or CICO to get lean.
@mondocool239 do blood tests for thyroid, cortisol, prolactin
I can pretty much guarantee that my hormones are out of whack after a decade of unnecessarily induced stress trying to resolve my body fat problem. I am not currently interested in trying to micro manage the function of my organs. I have read too much negative press about the medical and pharmaceutical industry to believe this is even possible to do.
Melatonin (night) and DHEA (morning) shift toward fat usage/depletion. May be counter to the Ray Peat approach. Saturated fats are used exclusively for heat generation.

Sustained-release melatonin + DHEA is the original antiaging combo and is what got Life Extension Foundation its start. They both decline with age and is a large reason people lose ability to stay lean without effort. There is also the fall of IGF-1 after teens which seemingly leads to a rise in.. estrogen? Melatonin, DHEA, iodine (protocol), calcium, etc oppose estrogen. More magnesium is correlated with higher DHEA and IGF-1, maybe due to lowering inflammation and other things.

What is your body fat percentage and did you consume salt/electrolytes while fasting?
What I understand is that a significant amount of body system repair happens during deep sleep. So it would make sense that using supplements to improve your sleep would give your body more opportunity to repair itself. And more repair, would mean more fat is used and you would get leaner. What I am interested in is whether there are ways you could increase the demand for repair as well?

I estimate I am about 30% body fat, although I don't believe I am deficient in strength or lean body mass for my height. I hold my own in terms of strength against similar height men at my BJJ class. I did consume some combination of potassium, sodium and magnesium salt in water when I was fasting, I did not incur issues with headaches this way. When I use the description "miserable", I simply mean that I could only sustain the fast for as long as my motivation was high, and the weight loss failed to stick when I returned to eating.
 

Mr.Bollox

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There are supplements called "lipotropic factors" usually containing choline, inositol and L-methionine, supposedly improving fat metabolism.
Methionine is not "peaty" though.
isnt choline not peaty either since its pro methylation? i think Peat recommends just getting the minimum of each? like 500mg choline and methionine each which is extremely tough unless you do a mostly gelatin diet? actually if you get choline from food sources it may be impossible to get 500mg choline without getting at least that much methionine or more. also Peat was asked if zero tryptophan is good and he said no a certain small amounts needed to help the gut cells and other cells repair he said maybe a few hundred mg a day. dont think hes been asked the same about arginine and methionine but id imagine his responses would be similar!
 

GreekDemiGod

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Well he is 85, and being that a body cannot use protein as efficienty in older years he is lucky to not be too skinny living on skim milk and orange juice. Being that muscles are bulky and can be mistaken for fat in clothes, most people prefer the lean look. I know I never liked having them until recent years.
Sugar liberally.
I also don't restrict salt, but I crave little of it, less than 1tsp/day
 

baccheion

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isnt choline not peaty either since its pro methylation? i think Peat recommends just getting the minimum of each? like 500mg choline and methionine each which is extremely tough unless you do a mostly gelatin diet? actually if you get choline from food sources it may be impossible to get 500mg choline without getting at least that much methionine or more. also Peat was asked if zero tryptophan is good and he said no a certain small amounts needed to help the gut cells and other cells repair he said maybe a few hundred mg a day. dont think hes been asked the same about arginine and methionine but id imagine his responses would be similar!
Potatoes, fruits, scallops, (collard) greens, (coconut) oil..

The glycine/gelatin is one means of clearing out methionine/methyls. Vitamin B3 also has a similar effect. Scallops are expensive, though. Just enough added to get to 5g leucine (at 70 kg + 16% body fat).
 
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