Can soda (pop) cause kidney problems?

Peata

Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
3,402
I didn't want to threadjack, so I started this new one.

Mittir, you posted this:

In an interview RP specifically mentioned high phosphorus increases BP.
In this article he mentioned that calcium deficiency causes high blood pressure.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/milk.shtml
PTH is a major factor in high BP. Low phosphorus, high calcium, vitamin D, Vitamin K,
magnesium all lowers PTH.
In KMUD Alkaline Acid interview he said that he has seen people lowering BP
by 30 points in few days of bag breathing 2-3 minutes 2-3 times a day.
Bicarbonate water should do similar thing but he seemed to prefer bag breathing over
bicarbonate. But one should be careful with bag breathing, excess bag breathing can
cause kidney stone problems. I have seen people having problem with sodium bicarbonate too.


I was wondering if drinking Coke can cause kidney problems - stones, whatever.

I've been drinking more Coke lately. I also drink sparkling mineral water daily (has Co2).

Does anyone know the risks?
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,618
Location
USA
I know this isnt totally on topic but I wrote to Ray Peat recently about the kidney stones and bag breathing:

charlie said:
Ray, is it possible for bag breathing to cause kidney stones? A while back, I started up bag breathing and then passed a kidney stone. So I stopped the bag breathing. Well, I tried to start it up again and I am having signs of kidney stones. This being the only time in my life having to deal with stones. I am wondering if it may be causing it, or, maybe its actually helping to melt them so they can get out?

Ray Peat said:
It can relax ducts, might allow stones to pass.

So now, I am truly thinking this is what happened. It allowed the stones that I had in me to pass.
 

mandance

Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
473
Could stones form from excess calcium and not enough water? I know Peat doesnt really believe in drinking water for the most part, but I still wonder about this.
 

HDD

Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
2,028
This quote is from "Bone Density: First Do No Harm"

It is extremely important to realize that calcium deposits in soft tissues become worse when the diet is low in calcium. Persons suffering from arthritis, bursitis, scleroderma, hardening of the arteries and any abnormality where calcium deposits or spurs may cause pain are often afraid to eat foods rich in calcium. Actually they can never improve until their calcium and magnesium intakes are adequate. Not infrequently physicians tell individuals with kidney stones to avoid all milk, thereby causing stones to form even more rapidly. Such calcium deposits can also occur when vitamin E is undersupplied. After open-heart surgery, when both magnesium and vitamin E are drastically needed and could easily be given, the calcification of heart muscles often becomes so severe that it can cause death within a few days. Pages 171-172, Lets Eat Right to Keep Fit, Adelle Davis, Signet, 1970.

(Bold mine)
 

mandance

Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
473
Thats interesting about Heart surgery...you would think something as simple as Vitamin E and magnesium would be used after the surgery then if that was an issue...I wonder if it is actually effective...probably would need a lot of test cases. At any rate, I didnt realize the calcium misinformation though. It seems likes a lot of people that dont drink much water get stones but I guess maybe its not the water factor but the calcium deposits.
 

Gabriel

Member
Joined
May 7, 2013
Messages
229
"Consumption of sugar-sweetened soda and punch is associated with a higher risk of stone formation, whereas consumption of coffee, tea, beer, wine, and orange juice is associated with a lower risk."
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23676355

"Half of the subjects were randomized to refrain from consuming soft drinks, while the remaining subjects served as controls. The intervention group had an observed 6.4% advantage in actuarial 3 yr freedom from recurrence (p = 0.023 one-sided) over the control group. One important secondary finding was that for those who reported at the time of the index stone that their most consumed drink was acidified by phosphoric acid but not citric acid, the experimental group had a 15% higher 3 yr recurrence-free rate than the controls, p = 0.002, while for those who reported at the time of the index stone that their most consumed drink was acidified by citric acid with or without phosphoric acid, the experimental group had a similar 3 yr recurrence-free rate to the controls, p = 0.55. This interaction was significant, p = 0.019."
Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 569290074W

--> Coca Cola (posphoric acid soda) + kidney stones = not a good combination

Acetazolamide, which also acts by increasing CO2, has also been reported to cause kidney stones.
Source: http://pmj.bmj.com/content/75/885/427.full

-->Suggesting that it is the increased CO2 causes kidney stones. I find the relaxation of ducts theory that Peat mentioned not very plausible. Charlie, what did you observe after restarting bag breathing, another stone passing?
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,618
Location
USA
Gabriel said:
-->Suggesting that it is the increased CO2 causes kidney stones. I find the relaxation of ducts theory that Peat mentioned not very plausible. Charlie, what did you observe after restarting bag breathing, another stone passing?

Yes, I started to pass another stone. I could feel it moving along the ducts or whatever they are. Soon as I stopped the bag breathing it stopped.

Ok, my dad has had kidney stones off and on through out his life. However, its been a really long time since he has had to deal with one. Well, this weekend he had to clean out the barn and it was really dusty so he wore one of the painter masks. It took him about 3 days to do it so he had that mask on a really long time. Well, today, he is in severe pain passing a kidney stone.

So, did the CO2 facilitate the stones passing? Or did the CO2 cause the stone to be formed? Could it form that quickly? Maybe those studies you posted above, maybe the people already had stones and once they got more CO2 were able to pass them. Or maybe it made a stone. After witnessing this now on 3 occasions, 2 for me and 1 for my dad. I tend to think it facilitated the stones passing. I dont see how a stone could form that quickly, but I admit I could be wrong.
 
J

j.

Guest
I've heard people say 3 tablespoons of coconut oil daily for a long time destroys stones. I don't know if it's true.
 
J

j.

Guest
I think it might cause problems if you have a low calcium phosphorus ratio. Coca cola has phosphorus and I think it increases excretion of calcium. Whether the amount is significant, I don't know. I do think if you drink milk daily you would decrease the likelihood of a bad ratio.

Having a good calcium phosphorus ratio (at least 1 calcium:1 phosphorus) is important to prevent calcification of soft tissues.
 

Ari

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
79
Charlie said:
Gabriel said:
-->Suggesting that it is the increased CO2 causes kidney stones. I find the relaxation of ducts theory that Peat mentioned not very plausible. Charlie, what did you observe after restarting bag breathing, another stone passing?

Yes, I started to pass another stone. I could feel it moving along the ducts or whatever they are. Soon as I stopped the bag breathing it stopped.

Ok, my dad has had kidney stones off and on through out his life. However, its been a really long time since he has had to deal with one. Well, this weekend he had to clean out the barn and it was really dusty so he wore one of the painter masks. It took him about 3 days to do it so he had that mask on a really long time. Well, today, he is in severe pain passing a kidney stone.

So, did the CO2 facilitate the stones passing? Or did the CO2 cause the stone to be formed? Could it form that quickly? Maybe those studies you posted above, maybe the people already had stones and once they got more CO2 were able to pass them. Or maybe it made a stone. After witnessing this now on 3 occasions, 2 for me and 1 for my dad. I tend to think it facilitated the stones passing. I dont see how a stone could form that quickly, but I admit I could be wrong.

Do you know which types of stones they are? Knowing which kind they are could help determine the cause.

Based on some reading I have done:

1. When bag breathing is done, the kidneys pass out excess H+ ions in the urine
2. Certain stones, called Uric Acid stones, caused by metabolism of purine, can precipitate (turn solid) in a low pH solution (urine with many H+ ions)
3. The RayPeat diet is potentially high in purines (Liver, oysters, meats)

Add all of those together and you have a situation in which yes bag breathing could be forming stones in your kidneys.
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,618
Location
USA
My doc looked at it and said it looked like a calcium oxalate stone. I looked at the pics online and seems to be what he said. Looks like the same for my dad too. I just checked the uric acid stone pics and neither one of our stones looked like that.
 

Ari

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
79
Charlie said:
My doc looked at it and said it looked like a calcium oxalate stone. I looked at the pics online and seems to be what he said. Looks like the same for my dad too. I just checked the uric acid stone pics and neither one of our stones looked like that.

Ouch, those look sharp in the pictures

I don't have any solid theories on those stones... just one though:

In low pH solutions (bag breathing urine) calcium oxalate stones actually dissolve slightly, which, if your kidney is loaded with stones, could cause some to loosen and pass through.


(calcium oxalate is soluble at low pH, and solidifies (precipitates) at high pH).

Have you ever had your kidneys x-rayed or whatever they do to look at current stones?
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,618
Location
USA
No I have not had any xrays.

And yes they are ouch. My dad was in horrible pain yesterday but he was able to pass it.

I do think its dissolving them a bit and also relaxing the ducts allowing them to pass. Win win!
 

Ari

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
79
Charlie said:
No I have not had any xrays.

And yes they are ouch. My dad was in horrible pain yesterday but he was able to pass it.

I do think its dissolving them a bit and also relaxing the ducts allowing them to pass. Win win!


Win win except for the pain for sure.

If you ever have painkillers on hand, im pretty sure something really acidic like vinegar, lemons etc would get them moving FAST , even coke and oj probably?

but im really just grasping at straws. I have no idea whether im right or wrong here.
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,618
Location
USA
I would think being extra hydrated might help move it out faster.
 

Parsifal

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
1,073
Charlie said:
post 30641
No I have not had any xrays.

And yes they are ouch. My dad was in horrible pain yesterday but he was able to pass it.

I do think its dissolving them a bit and also relaxing the ducts allowing them to pass. Win win!
Any updates Charlie on the stones? Do you still do bag breathing or drink carbonated water/baking soda?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,618
Location
USA
No more stones thank God. I do drink carbonated water via the magnesium carbonate. But it's not a lot.
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
S Baking Soda As A Gel Or Paste Body Care 6
J Baking Soda For Oxalate Recipes 6
J Has Anyone Tried Diffusing Baking Soda? CO2, Bag Breathing 12
C Baking Soda And Stomach Acid Digestion 14
Mark2020 Monitoring PH And Baking Soda Therapy Experiments 4
RWilly Does Baking Soda As An Ingredient In A Baked Cookie Still Provide Bicarbonate Benefits? Acidity vs. Alkalinity 3
E Thiamine/diamox/baking Soda : How Health 2
C Meat With Baking Soda? Diet 15
C Salt Or Baking Soda? Ask For Help or Advice 7
Velve921 Epsom Salt/Aspirin/B3/Baking Soda Baths Ask For Help or Advice 14
Francisco Is Soda A Good Way To Raise CO2? Soda (Mexican Coke, Pepsi, etc.) 11
PurpleHeart Weird Baking Soda Experience Sodium 2
haidut Baking Soda May Treat Cancer, Metformin May Cause It Scientific Studies 26
P Antiinflammatory Action Of Oral Baking Soda Articles & Scientific Studies 39
Alex Jaramillo Nebulizing Baking Soda Cancer, Degenerative Diseases 0
gilson d dantas Baking Soda And Prostate Cancer Pharmaceutical Drugs 8
T Question Regarding Buteyko Vs. Baking Soda Miscellaneous Health Discussions 9
Inaut ACV And Club Soda Recipes 1
P Hiccups When Drinking Soda Digestion 5
yerrag Philippine Soda Drinks Being Made Toxic Soda (Mexican Coke, Pepsi, etc.) 4
Mito A Daily Dose Of Baking Soda Can Treat Autoimmune Disease, Study Finds Articles & Scientific Studies 1
Soren Study: Baking Soda Toothpaste Greatly Improves Gum Health Scientific Studies 14
biggirlkisss A Healthy Deodorant Other Then Baking Soda Ask For Help or Advice 17
A Baking Soda Is Helping Me So Much - Looking To Clarify A Few Things Ask For Help or Advice 83
haidut Baking Soda Is A Potent Anti-inflammatory, May Treat Rheumatoid Arthritis (RA) Scientific Studies 138
W NaHCO3 Aka Baking Soda Washes All Pesticides Off Your Fruits & Veggies Toxins, Detoxification 5
Seleniodine UK Soda Tax Coming April 6th 2018 Breaking News 23
T Sodium Bicarbonate (baking Soda) Foot Bath & Bath Ask For Help or Advice 6
AretnaP 1/2 Teaspoon Of Gym Chalk Completely Dissolved In Soda Water Magnesium 13
haidut Baking Soda Dramatically Increases Antibiotic Effectiveness, Could Help In Sepsis Scientific Studies 29
D Making Magnesium Bicarb With Club Soda? Supplements 1
R Good Ratio Of Aspirin To Baking Soda, Niacinamide, Glycine, Vit K? Aspirin 5
RedStaR Aware Me On Sodium Bicarbonate? (baking Soda) Supplements 9
A Soda Stream Bought At Garage Sale Altitude, Bag Breathing, CO2, Light, Weather 8
Jon Baking Soda+Yogurt Lactic Acid Inhibition? Yoghurt, Kefir 4
I Soda Bicarbonate CO2, Bag Breathing 4
Mito Seattle Approves 1.75-cent-an-ounce Soda Tax The Ray Peat Forum Lounge 10
ecstatichamster Aspirin With Niacinamide Baking Soda And Collagen Aspirin 3
Pointless Nebulizing Baking Soda Safety CO2, Bag Breathing 2
TurtleNeck How Much Baking Soda To OJ? Ask For Help or Advice 0
Max. Vomiting After Drink Baking Soda With Salt Ask For Help or Advice 13
Y Baking Soda Stops Aspirin From Being Absorbed? Ask For Help or Advice 3
Ideonaut Baking Soda And Coconut Oil For Skin Cancer? Cancer 8
KnowledgeSeeker Baking Soda Safe? Health 2
Elchapchapchapo Restless Sleep When Consuming Baking Soda? Insomnia, Sleep Issues 14
N Soda Between Meals (20g Sucrose) Diet 11
haidut Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) Studied For Cancer Scientific Studies 6
W Adding baking soda to remove acidity Ask For Help or Advice 0
S 104-Year-Old Woman drinks soda Miscellaneous Health Discussions 2
N Soda fountain refills banned in France Miscellaneous Health Discussions 12

Similar threads

Top