Can Progesterone Increase Cortisol? Does It Lower It?

Vivien

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1. Does any of you know if the body can covert progesterone from progesterone cream or Progest-e to cortisol?
Can cortisol level increase with excess progesterone from Progest-e?

2. Or can the body covert supplemental pregnenelone to cortisol or estrogen?

Thanks
 

Mittir

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Here is RP's explanation on this issue

PREGNENOLONE 'STEAL' THEORY
Regarding the pregnenolone steal theory, It would be interesting to know who started that, it's a mechanical way of
thinking about physiology that ignores the things that really matter. Thyroid hormone, vitamin A, and cholesterol
support the formation of pregnenolone, and the well nourished body is able to make large adjustments in these, to
minimize the need for cortisol. In health, enough pregnenolone and progesterone are produced to inhibit the stress
systems, for example by inhibiting the release of ACTH. When something prevents the formation of pregnenolone
and progesterone, rising ACTH will increase its production as conditions permit, but if something, such as thyroid
hormone, is lacking, the ACTH will increase cortisol, often with DHEA and the androgens increasing too, if
resources permit; sometimes the stressed system is able to sustain only cortisol and aldosterone production, and that
leads to degenerative problems.
http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/ ... tandi.html
 

Vivien

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Thanks, but I'm still not sure whether the body can convert supplemented progesterone to cortisol or supplemented pregnenolone to cortisol or estrogen.
 

Mittir

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In theory cortisol and estrogen can be derived from pregnenolone and progesterone.
He has said that body produces pregnenolone and progesterone to combat stress as
a first defense, when body cant make these hormones, it resort to second option, that
is cortisol. Low thyroid, lack of vitamin A and low cholesterol are main cause of
decrease in pregnenolone, progesterone and dhea. He has specifically said that
in low thyroid people excess dhea supplement can easily convert to estrogen.
Progesterone lowers estrogen and this improves thyroid function.
He has said that pregnenolone and thyroid are safer supplement.
He also suggested not to use progesterone with enlarged thyroid gland
and not to use thyroid supplement with low cholesterol.
Here is his article on 3 hormones.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/th ... ones.shtml
 

Vivien

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Mittir said:
In theory cortisol and estrogen can be derived from pregnenolone and progesterone.
He has said that body produces pregnenolone and progesterone to combat stress as
a first defense, when body cant make these hormones, it resort to second option, that
is cortisol. Low thyroid, lack of vitamin A and low cholesterol are main cause of
decrease in pregnenolone, progesterone and dhea. He has specifically said that
in low thyroid people excess dhea supplement can easily convert to estrogen.
Progesterone lowers estrogen and this improves thyroid function.
He has said that pregnenolone and thyroid are safer supplement.
He also suggested not to use progesterone with enlarged thyroid gland
and not to use thyroid supplement with low cholesterol.
Here is his article on 3 hormones.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/th ... ones.shtml

Thank you Mittir. I'm just asking this because I have quite severe estrogen dominance and I'm using 50-60mg progesterone cream daily after ovulation. But with this amount I still have very high estrogen, and extremely high cortisol and adrenalin. No matter what I do, no matter how much sugar and salt I ate in the last couple of days I feel terrible. I cannot sleep and I have constant pain in all my muscles due to constant muscle tension because of adrenalin and cortisol.

I'm just trying to figure out why I feel so terrible, so I thought that may be the progesterone cream is converted to cortisol and adrenalin somehow.
 

Mittir

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I do not have idea about progesterone dose. You can check old threads on
progesterone discussion. A right dose of progesterone supposed to lower estrogen.
If you are low in thyroid your liver will be unable to detoxify excess estrogen.
He strongly recommends daily raw carrot salad or cooked bamboo shoots
to lower endotoxin and estrogen. You also have to get
at least 80 grams of good quality protein and B vitamins
(weekly 3-6 oz liver provide good amount)
to strengthen your liver. Just using supplement is not going help
without following his dietary recommendations.
Blood test of thyroid gives a good idea about the status of thyroid.
Checking temperature and pulse 2 hours after breakfast helps with
understanding over all metabolism.
 

katiekeen

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Vivien, you're symptoms sound very similar to mine, est. dominance, high cortisol and adrenaline and body pain. I have been trying to eat according to Peat since April but the biggest difference for me occurred when I started Cynoplus. I had difficulty with progest e at first, made me very depressed but I think the dose was too low and I wasn't on the right thyroid supplement for long enough. So I started taking huge doses of progest e and I had glimpses of okayness. I then got really sick with the flu so backed off and stopped the progest e. I never get the flu so I believe (and I could be right or wrong) that my body was flooded with too much toxic estrogen, I also started sneezing like crazy (not flu associated, a long standing problem for me which has lessened on Peat) so I'm making connections between estrogen and histamine (again, I could be wrong, I'm not a science person and I don't completely understand Peats articles but I try!)
Reading through previous posts I understand that taking progesterone increases the need for extra protein, I don't get enough as it is. Next time I will drop the progest e dose -not too low though- and eat more protein. Sugar has helped me alot and I want to steady my thyroid dose. I really believe that thyroid hormone is key, for me anyway. Progesterone creams and troches have never done anything for me.
Like many on this forum I have been unwell for years and I am convinced that Peating is the way to go. I have had enough glimpses of feeling like a slightly normal person to believe it.
Good luck!!
 

Birdie

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I am high estrogen too, and working on lowering it. May not apply to you at all, but you reminded me of one experience I have with adrenalin from time to time. I've been working on the estrogen dominance (with our anti-inflammatory, upping metabolism way of eating) for about 2 years in case you wonder.

My adrenalin rush occurs when I eat fruit alone. I need to eat protein first. And I forget every so often. The last time was day before yesterday when I had a delicious slice of watermelon. This was about 2 hours after breakfast. So, not first thing in the day.

It was so good that I guzzled it. And, boom, the rest of the day, or most of it I was jittery, etc. And craving too. And, I almost did it yesterday again, but caught myself. So, I have to eat protein first and also I have to eat slowly.

Anyway, that's my experience. I know Peat says that he must drink his oj before he eats his eggs. I tried that. Actually, did that for months with the same awful reaction, but thought the cause was something else. So, whether I might be able to eat fruit first later on, I don't know. I know I've always been this way, or as long as I remember.

I'm very happy with the results of tweaking the fruit/protein thing. Also, should mention that my protein needs a little fat with it before I hit the fruit.
 

Padmaaa

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Katiekeen, you mentioned that you use a relatively large amount of Progest-e. Could you tell me how much exactly? And how much Cynoplus you take?

I also have very similar symptoms with with swollen, painful breast after ovulation. I've been using Progesterone cream in the last 6 months, it helped a bit, but I still have quite bad symptoms. I've just started taking Nutri-Med granulated thyroid 1/4 tables twice a day. I'm eating according to RP as well. I ordered Progest-e to replace the progesterone cream but it hasn't arrived yet. I'm also waiting for pregnenolone to arrive.
 

Peata

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Padmaaa said:
I also have very similar symptoms with with swollen, painful breast after ovulation. I've been using Progesterone cream in the last 6 months, it helped a bit, but I still have quite bad symptoms. I've just started taking Nutri-Med granulated thyroid 1/4 tables twice a day. I'm eating according to RP as well. I ordered Progest-e to replace the progesterone cream but it hasn't arrived yet. I'm also waiting for pregnenolone to arrive.

Just wanted to chime in and say I have the same problem. What helps me is aspirin. I take some as soon as I feel the start of the breast problem. I pretty much take little bites of an aspirin 1 - 3 x per day, but will take more if needed for the breast issue, until I feel no aching. HTH.

Are you going to take pregnenolone and Progest E together? I haven't researched enough about it. I don't have any pregnenolone yet. I do take Progest E. I have a hard time knowing how much to take and when to take it. I want to take enough to do the job, but I can't take half a bottle a day either. I just came into the 2nd half of my cycle and started it again. This is my 2nd month taking it.
 

katiekeen

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Hi Padmaa, initially I took 3 tiny drops 5 times a day as I had read this was an ok dose. My most recent progest e-fest I was taking anywhere up to 5 large drops (grape size) per day. Will try somewhere in the middle next time.
I have been taking Cynoplus for about 3 weeks and am currently taking 1/8 of a tablet 2 times daily. For me I think it's important to get the dosing of thyroid correct first, get the ol' liver humming along nicely to deal with estrogen assault from the progesterone. This is my thinking. I think aspirin helps too.
Wow, there is so much to think about with Peat and I think everyone is individual in their requirements. But as I said before, this is the only thing that has helped me feel slightly human in so many years so I'm persisting!!!!
 

charlie

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katiekeen said:
I forgot to say that pregnenelone makes me feel jittery and funny in the head

Small dose under 10 mgs works good for me.
 

Padmaaa

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katiekeen said:
Hi Padmaa, initially I took 3 tiny drops 5 times a day as I had read this was an ok dose. My most recent progest e-fest I was taking anywhere up to 5 large drops (grape size) per day. Will try somewhere in the middle next time.
I have been taking Cynoplus for about 3 weeks and am currently taking 1/8 of a tablet 2 times daily. For me I think it's important to get the dosing of thyroid correct first, get the ol' liver humming along nicely to deal with estrogen assault from the progesterone. This is my thinking. I think aspirin helps too.
Wow, there is so much to think about with Peat and I think everyone is individual in their requirements. But as I said before, this is the only thing that has helped me feel slightly human in so many years so I'm persisting!!!!

Thank you katiekeen. I'm currently using progesterone cream 22-55mg/day form ovulation, and I've just started to use Nutri-Med 1/4 tables 4 times a day.
I also taking 300 mg Aspirin 2 times a day, and I think that it is helpful, but when I have painful breasts 2 tables is far from enough for me, but I'm not brave enough to raise the amount of Aspirin. I also take 2.5mg vitamin K with the Aspirin.

Progest-E and Prognenelone will arrive in the next couple of days.

Does any of you have any experience with Nutri-Med Thyroid supplement?
 

miko

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[moderator edit: threads merged]


What is the relationship between stress and progesterone? Is high cortisol means low progesterone? (the effect of stealing of precursor? - progesterone is precursor for cortisol) I have lab test and my cortisol is high and progesterone is low. If there is a possibility that progesterone supplementation will reduce the activity of the HPA axis and reduce my cortisol levels?
 

haidut

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miko said:
haidut write something :D please.

Well as you know this is a contentious subject:) Some people here believe that progesterone will raise cortisol even further since progesterone is a precursor to cortisol. My opinion is different, however to be on the safe side I think pregnenolone would be safer supplement combined with DHEA. Both pregnenolone and cortisol are known to be glucocorticoid (cortisol) antagonists. Zinc (30mg-50mg), vitamin A (40,000 IU - 200,000 IU), magnesium (400mg+), phosphatidylserine (200mg-800mg) have all been shown to lower cortisol in humans, especially ones with higher cortisol. There is also the supplement Relora, which is proprietary but does have a few clinical trials behind it. The drug RU486 is used clinically for high cortisol issues.
However, before you start supplementing I think you need some additional tests. Have you tested pregnenolon, DHEA, prolactin? Is there any indication from tests if your high cortisol is due to pituitary issues or adrenal issues? What does your doctor think about the high cortisol, its origins and treatment options?
Like Peat said, context is everything, so what's yours?
 

miko

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I can't test pregnenolone in the place I live. My DHEA is 5,8 (1,8-12,5) - and a few years ago it was above limit. My prolactin is 5,14 (4,04-15,2).

There isn't any indications from tests. My cortisol is high but in the limit - 446 (171-536) but I have many signs of elevated cortisol. I think my cortisol is from stress and depression (and my depression is from stress). I need some drug to calm my HPA axis and mind. I have tried almost all antidepressants without success (the only one with some reaction is mirtazapine and this drug lowers cortisol to some point). My other symptoms are acne, very oily skin, balding, low immune system. I'm thinking about progesterone becouse it's lowers cortisol and could help with my skin/hair problems (it's 5-alpha reductase inhibitor). I don't need libido in my situation... My estrogens in blood are not high but I have some breast enlargement - I have tried progesterone for a few days and my breast quickly decreased (only for a few days becouse I wanted to check my progesterone levels in blood) - I was thinking that when my cortisol, 17-oh progesterone, and androstenedione is quite high (17-oh prog- 1,31 (0,05-1,6), androstenedione-3 (0,7-3,6), so my progesterone would be high (to produce more of it's successors like 17-oh prog, and cortisol), but my progesterone is 0,23 (0,2-1,4). So i'm thinking about "stealing problem" like a real issue. I think that request for cortisol and other successors of progesterone is so high in my body that my progesterone level is "exhausted" and progesterone (and it's metabolites) couldn't work for me (so it's skin/hair problems etc.) Maybe some progesterone from supplementation could solve some of my problems with skin/hair and additionally lower my cortisol/HPA axis activity.

What do you think?

PS. RU486 is progesterone antagonist (Peat writes something about this drug and cancer).
 
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