Can NDT Supplementation Raise TSH?

[StrongMom]

My inclination is that NDT should reduce TSH levels.

I am asking this because after seeing my 2.5 year old twin boys' lab TSH levels I feel a bit puzzled. My boys have been on (half a grain) thyroid for about two months. One of them is autistic and the other has a lot of developmental issues. When I wrote a detailed email to Ray Peat about their conditions, he suggested thyroid and Pregnenolone for them.

Two days ago they had some blood work done. My autistic son's Tsh is 3.25 and the others' 2.56. Well, maybe that should not be so surprising as their temperatures didn't rise at all since starting the supplementation!

I am asking this question as I was wondering maybe the body can differentiate between NDT and its own. And the fact that its own production is declining might raise TSH. Just a thought...

I am on NDT as well for some time and I have not seen my improvement either. When I take it, for a short period of time my pulse goes up but quickly comes down and stays low until the dose. I am guessing that I have T4 to T3 conversion issue. Maybe they have the same thing.

What do you think?

 

[answersfound]

The only scenario where ndt would raise tsh is if you took too much and overloaded the liver, creating a reverse t3 issue, blocking t3 from getting into the cells. This is not possible with just half a grain. The rise in Tsh is just a natural fluctuation that happens. Tsh can be at different levels at different times of the day. That change in Tsh is not significant. If after two months the Tsh has not come down, I would recommend raising the dose. *waits for Tara to chime in and tell OP not to raise dose and be more cautious*. You want the Tsh to be under 1.

If you tolerate coffee well, you probably don't have a conversion issue, you just need to raise te dose. If coffee gives you a bad response, you probably have a liver issue. What thyroid supplement are you taking? Keep in mind that the thyroid glandular supplements are incredibly weak and one grain of that is not remotely close to the strength of one grain of armour. Maybe get your boys some Novotiral from my Mexican drug store so you actually know what your giving them. Or you could try haiduts new product. And I second peats recommendation for pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is magical.

Figuring out your dose can be a lengthy process that requires a couple months at the least. Broda Barnes recommended people stay at the starting dose of grain for two months and then increase. Larger women and men can be started on two grains. Most people settle around the 2 grain range. He recommended to never exceed 3 grains. So if you need the max dose of 3 grains, it could tAke you 4-6 months to arrive at this dose depending on how aggressive or cautious you go. I spent two months getting up to one grain, and then decided to jump to two grains because I'm 180+ lbs, rather than 1.5 grains. I felt that I had a ways to go so I was comfortable jumping up a grain. Just listen to your body and stay pAtient. If you're not seeing progress after a while it could be protein deficiency or the thyroid product you are using.

 

[tara]

post 117586
Two days ago they had some blood work done. My autistic son's Tsh is 3.25 and the others' 2.56.

Do you have the corresponding results from before supplementation? Have they come down with supplementation?

post 117591 *waits for Tara to chime in and tell OP not to raise dose and be more cautious*.

:)
These are very small children. If weight is a relevant parameter, half a grain for them might be like 2 grains to an adult. I can imagine that if the quality of the NDT is good, this could in some circumstances be too much, but I don't know if that is the case here. I agree that it would probably be good to get TSH down towards or under 1.

I guess conversion to T3 could be a possible issue. If the NDT was helping but not yet enough, I'd wonder if supplementing more maybe would make sense. It would be interesting to know if the TSH has come down. If it is not improving temps at all, maybe there is something else missing? I guess you've checked diet for all the micronutrients - eg. selenium, magnesium, B-vits, etc? Do they have reasonable transit?

 

[sweetpeat]

TSH is naturally lower in the winter/early spring vs. summer/early fall. I've had labs with almost identical t4 and t3 levels, but the TSH in early April was several points higher than the one in July. So if it's winter where you are, that might be something to consider. Other lab work or symptoms can be more helpful in that case to tell if things have improved, stayed the same, or gotten worse.

 

[StrongMom]

Thanks all for the helpful responses. I think i have a lot to say. I will try to write as much as I can.

First of all, we don't have prior test results. The doctors are quite unwilling to order tests unless there is a cause. Once one of my boys is diagnosed with autism, our pediatrician became more willing. However, we still don't have everything maybe that should be tested. There are other things that are off as well. Let me tell them.

Co2 is low for both. My autistic's is 17 (normal range 22-29), the other's is 21 (22-29).

My autistic's bicarbonate is low: anion gap is high at 24 (normal range 9-19). He has serious constipation issues and I have been giving him magnesium regularly. I wonder if the low level of bicarbonate is the cause as it is important in transportation of magnesium to cells.

His Bun is high at 21 (normal range 5-18). I am pretty sure his cortisol level is high. Maybe there is too much destruction of protein, raising the bun?

Their magnesium, calcium, sodium are in normal range. Selenium was not tested.

They look quite massed up, especially for a child. Even my test results are not that off.

As for me, i do not tolerate coffee well. Also, I know that my liver enzymes are high. As I think that I have a conversion issue, I started working on my coffee tolerance, raising the coffee consumption gradually. I would say caffeine is the only thing I haven't tried for my liver. Vitamin k2, taurine,various B vitamin, etc.

Up to now, the only thing that helped me was lots of progesterone. I stopped taking it as I had to take a lot to avoid estrogen symptoms. I was taking 25 drops 5 times a day. I think Ray peat said that in those situations, one should focus on thyroid and diet. That is what I am doing but the conversion has been a big issue for me.

 

[Anna]

NDT supplementation raised my TSH as well. I had it measured at 3.9 and 3.1 before supplementing. 3 months after I started supplementing it was 5.4. Ray has written several times that a lot of things can suppress TSH, stress for example, so I just figured that the dose I was at 3 months in had maybe lowered my stress levels but was not enough to raise my metabolism. That was 8 months ago and I now take 3-4 times that dose. I haven't had any blood work done since.

 

[StrongMom]

post 118423 NDT supplementation raised my TSH as well. I had it measured at 3.9 and 3.1 before supplementing. 3 months after I started supplementing it was 5.4. Ray has written several times that a lot of things can suppress TSH, stress for example, so I just figured that the dose I was at 3 months in had maybe lowered my stress levels but was not enough to raise my metabolism. That was 8 months ago and I now take 3-4 times that dose. I haven't had any blood work done since.

Thanks Anna. A few days after the blood work I found out that they had ear infections. Maybe that lowered their metabolism.

I am taking NDT as well. I haven't experienced any significant change either. I am right now at 4 grains. How much are you taking?

 

[answersfound]

post 118709

post 118423 NDT supplementation raised my TSH as well. I had it measured at 3.9 and 3.1 before supplementing. 3 months after I started supplementing it was 5.4. Ray has written several times that a lot of things can suppress TSH, stress for example, so I just figured that the dose I was at 3 months in had maybe lowered my stress levels but was not enough to raise my metabolism. That was 8 months ago and I now take 3-4 times that dose. I haven't had any blood work done since.

Thanks Anna. A few days after the blood work I found out that they had ear infections. Maybe that lowered their metabolism.

I am taking NDT as well. I haven't experienced any significant change either. I am right now at 4 grains. How much are you taking?

Keep in mind that 4 grains of the Thyroid Glandular products like Nutri-meds or American Biologics is NOT equivalent to 4 grains of what is referred to by Ray Peat or Broda Barnes when they talk about Armour thyroid, for example. If you are taking 4 grains (approx. 260 mg) of a Thyroid glandular product it probably is closer in strength to .5 to 1 grains of Armour thyroid. So if you are not experiencing much relief from your symptoms, just know you are taking a starting dose, and the amounts of T4 and T3 in the product are not exactly known. Having said that, you wI'll need to take a lot more of the Thyroid Glandular product. Also, I reference Armour Thyroid just to make a point of comparison, but it's important to note that the current Armour Thyroid is pure garbage. You may want to consider Haidut's TyroMax product so you can better gauge how much NDT you are really taking. Or you could ask your doctor for a combination of Synthroid and Cytomel.

4 grains is full thyroid replacement and will shut off thyroid function. Broda Barnes recommended people to not exceed 3 grains.

 

[Peatit]

post 118715 Keep in mind that 4 grains of the Thyroid Glandular products like Nutri-meds or American Biologics is NOT equivalent to 4 grains of what is referred to by Ray Peat or Broda Barnes when they talk about Armour thyroid, for example. If you are taking 4 grains (approx. 260 mg) of a Thyroid glandular product it probably is closer in strength to .5 to 1 grains of Armour thyroid

Where have you found such equivalence?

 

[Agent207]

Could it be caused becouse autoinmune reaction to NDT? Some people's body doesnt tolerate it very well

 

[answersfound]

post 118922

post 118715 Keep in mind that 4 grains of the Thyroid Glandular products like Nutri-meds or American Biologics is NOT equivalent to 4 grains of what is referred to by Ray Peat or Broda Barnes when they talk about Armour thyroid, for example. If you are taking 4 grains (approx. 260 mg) of a Thyroid glandular product it probably is closer in strength to .5 to 1 grains of Armour thyroid

Where have you found such equivalence?

Just a guess.

 

[Peatit]

post 118959
Just a guess.

I must say that I'm now taking 5 grains of Thiroyd and I'm not feeling like overdosing at all, when for Barnes it would have been a huge dose, but I would have liked having a confirmation...

 

[StrongMom]

The only scenario where ndt would raise tsh is if you took too much and overloaded the liver, creating a reverse t3 issue, blocking t3 from getting into the cells. This is not possible with just half a grain. The rise in Tsh is just a natural fluctuation that happens. Tsh can be at different levels at different times of the day. That change in Tsh is not significant. If after two months the Tsh has not come down, I would recommend raising the dose. *waits for Tara to chime in and tell OP not to raise dose and be more cautious*. You want the Tsh to be under 1.

If you tolerate coffee well, you probably don't have a conversion issue, you just need to raise te dose. If coffee gives you a bad response, you probably have a liver issue. What thyroid supplement are you taking? Keep in mind that the thyroid glandular supplements are incredibly weak and one grain of that is not remotely close to the strength of one grain of armour. Maybe get your boys some Novotiral from my Mexican drug store so you actually know what your giving them. Or you could try haiduts new product. And I second peats recommendation for pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is magical.

Figuring out your dose can be a lengthy process that requires a couple months at the least. Broda Barnes recommended people stay at the starting dose of grain for two months and then increase. Larger women and men can be started on two grains. Most people settle around the 2 grain range. He recommended to never exceed 3 grains. So if you need the max dose of 3 grains, it could tAke you 4-6 months to arrive at this dose depending on how aggressive or cautious you go. I spent two months getting up to one grain, and then decided to jump to two grains because I'm 180+ lbs, rather than 1.5 grains. I felt that I had a ways to go so I was comfortable jumping up a grain. Just listen to your body and stay pAtient. If you're not seeing progress after a while it could be protein deficiency or the thyroid product you are using.

I am thinking of ordering Novotirol for me and my boys. Do you know how many grains is a tablet?

 

[bipolarguy]

I must say that I'm now taking 5 grains of Thiroyd and I'm not feeling like overdosing at all, when for Barnes it would have been a huge dose, but I would have liked having a confirmation...

Peatit,

How long did it take you to get to 5 grains and how long have you been on Thiroyd? Just received my order, broke up one tablet into 10 tiny pieces and took one of them about 10 a.m. Within an hour, I felt it! Definitely warmed me up. Haven't taken anymore, today, and given my hypersensitivity to everything, I think 'low and slow' at least for a couple of weeks might be best...but I do have a propensity to always push the envelope. I'm eager to see if it improves overall physiologic function, mood, as well as sleep. I have treatment resistant ultra rapid cycling/mixed state bipolar illness and my back's been against the wall for too long. Haven't really been living; just existing in a tired, depleted, low energy, low functioning, state.

 

[Peatit]

Peatit,

How long did it take you to get to 5 grains and how long have you been on Thiroyd? Just received my order, broke up one tablet into 10 tiny pieces and took one of them about 10 a.m. Within an hour, I felt it! Definitely warmed me up. Haven't taken anymore, today, and given my hypersensitivity to everything, I think 'low and slow' at least for a couple of weeks might be best...but I do have a propensity to always push the envelope. I'm eager to see if it improves overall physiologic function, mood, as well as sleep. I have treatment resistant ultra rapid cycling/mixed state bipolar illness and my back's been against the wall for too long. Haven't really been living; just existing in a tired, depleted, low energy, low functioning, state.

I slowly increased my dosage by 1/2 grain every 3-4 weeks, starting with one grain, as Broda Barnes did in his practice.
The difference however with Dr Barnes time is, according to me and many on this board, the potency and the reliability of the actual dose in Thiroyd and co.
I'm very surprised about the feeling you had but it would mean that the purported t3 dosage of 9 mcg per grain is accurate (at least for the grain you took) because I think I heard Dr Peat saying that even 1 mcg can have a dramatic effect on some individuals.

 

[bipolarguy]

Thank you, Peatit. As a follow up, yesterday afternoon, around 5 pm, I was feeling chilly, though the outside temp was 25 C and it was warm in our apartment, so I took another micro dose of Thiroyd. I did get warmer but it also made it difficult to get to sleep later in the evening and sleep was not refreshing or restorative, though that's an ongoing part of my bipolar illness. So yes; the potency of Thiroyd seems to be accurate and for me, it also seems to be the missing link in restoring my sexual function, along with testosterone shots and pregnenolone. Though I'm just beginning my journey towards optimal metabolism, I'm encouraged. I know I have a long way to go.