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Can Magnesium Bicarbonate Be Made With Magnesium Carbonate?

Discussion in 'Magnesium' started by AretnaP, Mar 3, 2018.

  1. AretnaP

    AretnaP Member

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    have a lot of gym chalk sitting around
     
  2. OP
    AretnaP

    AretnaP Member

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  3. x-ray peat

    x-ray peat Member

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    I think it would be difficult as magnesium carbonate is not very soluble in water

    I found this

    MgCO3(solid) + H2O(boiling) + CO2 = Mg(HCO3)2(solution).

    not sure what kind of yield you would get though.
     
  4. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Yes, but they would be essentially identical once mixed with water, the only real difference being the bicarbonate outnumbering the magnesium 2∶1 in the former and existing at a 1∶1 ratio in the latter. In a polar water solution: the Mg²⁺ and CO₃²⁻ ions will become separated and exist independently of each other. Carbonate (CO₃²⁻) and bicarbonate (HCO₃⁻) ions would be indistinguishable as they exist in respective equilibrium— and also in equilibrium with carbonic acid and carbon dioxide (H₂CO₃ ⇌ HCO₃⁻ ⇌ CO₃²⁻ ⇌ CO₂). In the case of a dilute water solution the resultant pH difference between either a Mg(CO₃²⁻) solution or a Mg₂(HCO₃⁻) solution should be small, leaving only the carbonate∶magnesium ratio worth considering. A little bit of an acid, nearly any acid, would make them both more water-soluble.
     
  5. x-ray peat

    x-ray peat Member

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    I think the problem is getting the magnesium carbonate to dissolve and therefore dissociate. You would have a much weaker solution than if you made it from magnesium hydroxide and soda water
     
  6. Travis

    Travis Member

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    This is true; but both the carbonate and the bicarbonate forms are insoluble to a similar extent, making the actual conversion between the two not much worth considering. I think a food-safe acid (i.e. citric, acetic, malic, lactic) would quickly bring them into solution, with the carbonate and bicarbonate keeping the pH in a safe range—being buffers. I think this would slowly release carbon dioxide which would necessitate more acid on account of the basic hydroxyl ion being the other species dissociated (HCO₃⁻ ⇌ CO₂ + OH⁻). I think you'd eventually just end up with the deprotonated organic acid (i.e. citrate, acetate, malate, lactate) and magnesium in solution, with all the carbon atoms bubbling away (as CO₂, but don't tell the IPCC). A person could just add it pinchwise over time to orange juice until it's gone.
     
  7. x-ray peat

    x-ray peat Member

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    I just checked, the solubility of magnesium Bicarbonate is 5 times as much as the carbonate.

    I think an important question is whether or not the health claims of Magnesium Bicarbonate are even true.
     
  8. Travis

    Travis Member

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    It's five times higher yet still similarly low; both would be classified as 'insoluble,' yet nothing just a few protons wouldn't fix.
     
  9. x-ray peat

    x-ray peat Member

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    that may work and along those lines I would think that if you drink a magnesium carbonate slurry your stomach acid would dissolve it and you should end up with the same soup that the bicarbonate solution would give you.
     
  10. OP
    AretnaP

    AretnaP Member

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    thanks for the replies fellas xoxoxo
     
  11. Travis

    Travis Member

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    True; I think these would appear to be about equally safe to just swallow down. I actually think I have a magnesium oxide supplement in the cupboard sold for consumption, which I think is even more insoluble.

    But I don't think it would be a terrible idea to have something like this on hand for neutralizing the acidity of citrus juices and adding a little CO₂. Just the other day, I blended a pineapple and added a little calcium phosphate that I had lying around. I don't think this would impair digestion in the case of pineapple; I mean, it's not like you need a terrific amount of stomach acid to digest pineapple juice (and pineapple even has its own enzymes, such as bromelain, which slowly digest itself as it ripens).
     
  12. OP
    AretnaP

    AretnaP Member

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    Isn't magnesium oxide pretty bad (or at least according to everybody on the internet)?

    Is there any way to improve absorption?
     
  13. meatbag

    meatbag Member

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    I've taken mag caarbonate poured in sparkling water and it seemed to digest well, probably about as well as the magbicarb when I made it
     
  14. BingDing

    BingDing Member

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    @AretnaP The whole idea of Mg bicarbonate is that it seems to be pretty well absorbed or bioavailable. Many common Mg supplements are thought to be completely unavailable.

    @Travis I often mix 1/4 tsp powdered Potassium bicarbonate and oj and Mg bicarbonate/soda water. It really fizzes up. Does this produce ionic Potassium and Mg?
     
  15. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Yeah, but it's already ionic to begin with. Magnesium bicarbonate only has an 'ionic bond,' which isn't like a real covalent bond you see in the more stable molecules. Covalent bonds are formed when atomic orbitals overlap and share electrons; these are always formally depicted by a line, usually the 'em dash' character of intermediate length (i.e. Cl–Cl). But ionic bonds are just held together by electrostatic attraction, two charged species adhering together; these are never depicted using a line but often either in brackets and sometimes even with their charges denoted explicitly—but sometimes not: Mg²⁺[HCO₃⁻]₂ or Mg(HCO₃)₂. Polar solvents like water also have charge—a partial one—and these sum charges can offset the attractive force between the crystalline mineral ions, dissociate them, and bring it into solution. Nonpolar molecules like benzene cannot dissolve ionic compounds, only polar ones can.

    So with enough acidity in the orange juice, you'd expect more bicarbonate to be protonated (H⁺) and released; you might also expect the the Mg²⁺ ion to be stabilized by citrate, which has a considerable negative charge (C₆H₈O₇)³⁻. Citrate strongly chelates the positive ions Al³⁺ and Fe³⁺, but would also act to stabilize magnesium and potassium ions.
     
  16. Koveras

    Koveras Member

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    cec623ee87b30333caf1891864a054c1.jpg
     
  17. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Actually, magnesium oxide turns into magnesium hydroxide when mixed with water. And the magnesium hydroxide reacts with CO2 in carbonated water to form magnesium bicarbonate. I've made magnesium bicarbonate using both methods. Using USP-grade magnesium hydroxide, and technical grade magnesium oxide. The magnesium oxide, though, wasn't fully reacted, and some solids remain. I just wasn't sure if it was because magnesium oxide is in itself less soluble, or whether it was a technical grade I used (wan't using the technical grade for myself, but for my fishpond - to increase its magnesium content).

    Did the mag carbonate solid ever get dissolved or reacted to leave no trace of the solid in the sparkling water? I haven't tried it but was thinking of doing so to see if it could be used as a reactant to make magnesium bicarb, just as I was successful using both magnesium hydroxide and magnesium oxide as reactants.

    It turns out that the main use of magnesium carbonate is to make magnesium oxide. I guess that would probably mean that magnesium carbonate isn't that soluble.
     
  18. LeeLemonoil

    LeeLemonoil Member

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    I use pure USP-grade Mg-Carbonate and add aa small amount, maybe half a teaspoon, to 700ml of strongly carbonated water. I thn add a bit of Tricreatine-malate to it, to add malic acid just like Ttavis recommended. It all dissolves pretty well. The trick seems to be to keep the amount of added mc-carbonate pretty low so it can easily dissolve. I think it's no disadvantage to continouisly drink such a prepared bottle of water during the day. You get small but constant amounts of bioavailable Mg which might be a bit more "physiological" than taking 400mg and more at once
     
  19. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Yet magnesium hydroxide is still less water-soluble than calcium hydroxide, the form calcium oxide takes in water.
     
  20. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    A little off topic, but since you mentioned calcium hydroxide, I have a question for you Travis. I've tried using calcium carbonate mixed with carbonated water to make calcium bicarbonate. I was able to have a reaction that indicates conversion to calcium bicarb, but the reaction is not able to be carried out fully. There seems to be an equilibrium where no calcium carbonate gets converted anymore to calcium bicarb. A lot of calcium carbonate solid powder settles at the bottom.

    Since the use of magnesium hydroxide to make mag bicarbonate carries out fully, with no visible dregs left behind, would it be reasonable to expect the use of calcium hydroxide to be fully completed when mixed with carbonated water (with repeated refills of CO2 to carbonate water) to make calcium bicarbonate?

    I'm making an experiment now where instead of just drinking magnesium bicarbonate water alone, I want to drink a mixture of magnesium bicarb and calcium bicarb water. I wanted to see if they go well together, such that the calcium would keep magnesium from having a laxative effect, and to find out an appropriate ratio that is most effective. Since calcium has a constipatory effect, it might be able to balance out the laxative effect of magnesium. If successful, it could allow me to increase magnesium intake with less chance of loose bowel movement.
     
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