Can I use vitamin K-2 (mk-7) to help fixing the liver?

[milk_lover]

I read in many posts that coffee/caffeine+K2 combo is good for liver. I do not have access to mk-4. I was at GNC store today and I bought this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005FVXF6U/?tag=rapefo-20
Can it help in anything? I don't want to waste my money like that..

 

[Derek]

Don't you eat starch? You can get a lot of MK7 via fermentation of starch in the gut. When not eating starch, I've got good benefits from MK7 in supplemental form; at least in terms of bone/teeth health. Lowering endotoxin, avoiding excess fat and getting enough protein I think are more important for healing the liver than caffeine/K2.

 

[YuraCZ]

post 112649 Don't you eat starch? You can get a lot of MK7 via fermentation of starch in the gut. When not eating starch, I've got good benefits from MK7 in supplemental form.

Heh it is not that simple lol.

 

[Derek]

post 112652

post 112649 Don't you eat starch? You can get a lot of MK7 via fermentation of starch in the gut. When not eating starch, I've got good benefits from MK7 in supplemental form.

Heh it is not that simple lol.

Well I guess I'm lucky. I was able to heal my bad teeth with white bread and potatoes, then I stopped taking the MK7 supplement I had. So it was that simple for fixing my teeth. If you meant it's not that simple for fixing liver problems, I agree. I gave advice above on what I thought was the best way to fix liver problems.

 

[XPlus]

Niacinamide is the most helpful substance for liver health in my experience.
Aspirin could also help.
If you have liver problems you're likely to have some degree of digestive troubles.
I'd minimise starch and fibre for a while and see how it goes.

 

[YuraCZ]

post 112657

post 112652

post 112649 Don't you eat starch? You can get a lot of MK7 via fermentation of starch in the gut. When not eating starch, I've got good benefits from MK7 in supplemental form.

Heh it is not that simple lol.

Well I guess I'm lucky. I was able to heal my bad teeth with white bread and potatoes, then I stopped taking the MK7 supplement I had. So it was that simple for fixing my teeth. If you meant it's not that simple for fixing liver problems, I agree. I gave advice above on what I thought was the best way to fix liver problems.

No.. I mean most people have trouble absorb micronutrients, let alone make K2 in the gut.

 

[milk_lover]

post 112649 Don't you eat starch? You can get a lot of MK7 via fermentation of starch in the gut. When not eating starch, I've got good benefits from MK7 in supplemental form; at least in terms of bone/teeth health. Lowering endotoxin, avoiding excess fat and getting enough protein I think are more important for healing the liver than caffeine/K2.

hmm interesting Derek, I eat white bread sometimes but I don't want to depend on starch to get K2. How can I know I am getting K2 from starch though? I haven't read anything that confirms this.
Lowering endotoxin.. but you advise me to eat starch. How can I reduce endotoxin while eating starch? carrot and cascara everyday?

 

[milk_lover]

post 112679 Niacinamide is the most helpful substance for liver health in my experience.
Aspirin could also help.
If you have liver problems you're likely to have some degree of digestive troubles.
I'd minimise starch and fibre for a while and see how it goes.

What is the best way to take niacinamide? With food? With coffee? What about the dose?
When you said Niacinamide and Aspirin could help, do you mean you've tried k2+caffeine combo and it wasn't as helpful as your suggestions in helping liver function?

 

[Derek]

post 112687

post 112649 Don't you eat starch? You can get a lot of MK7 via fermentation of starch in the gut. When not eating starch, I've got good benefits from MK7 in supplemental form; at least in terms of bone/teeth health. Lowering endotoxin, avoiding excess fat and getting enough protein I think are more important for healing the liver than caffeine/K2.

hmm interesting Derek, I eat white bread sometimes but I don't want to depend on starch to get K2. How can I know I am getting K2 from starch though? I haven't read anything that confirms this.
Lowering endotoxin.. but you advise me to eat starch. How can I reduce endotoxin while eating starch? carrot and cascara everyday?

The best way to tell you are getting K2 from starch is how white/hard/clean your teeth are. You can reduce endotoxin while eating starch by adding small amounts of coconut or palm kernel oil. Also, I personally use iodized salt so adding that to coconut/palm kernel oil with starch should help.

 

[milk_lover]

post 112693

post 112687

post 112649 Don't you eat starch? You can get a lot of MK7 via fermentation of starch in the gut. When not eating starch, I've got good benefits from MK7 in supplemental form; at least in terms of bone/teeth health. Lowering endotoxin, avoiding excess fat and getting enough protein I think are more important for healing the liver than caffeine/K2.

hmm interesting Derek, I eat white bread sometimes but I don't want to depend on starch to get K2. How can I know I am getting K2 from starch though? I haven't read anything that confirms this.
Lowering endotoxin.. but you advise me to eat starch. How can I reduce endotoxin while eating starch? carrot and cascara everyday?

The best way to tell you are getting K2 from starch is how white/hard/clean your teeth are. You can reduce endotoxin while eating starch by adding small amounts of coconut or palm kernel oil. Also, I personally use iodized salt so adding that to coconut/palm kernel oil with starch should help.

My teeth are usually white and in a good condition. But since I upped my Aspirin intake and did the vitamin E experiment, my teeth are becoming little bit yellowish in the bottom but not very bad. So I thought the Aspirin and vitamin E might have depleted my vitamin K stores. Does this explain why I've been craving white bread lately? There is no immediate vitamin K in the starch, does the body know foreshadowing that the starch eventually will supply it with vitamin K2?
How does iodine help with endotoxin? It increases thyroid hormone (T4) and this helps get rid of endotoxin? Coconut oil also increases T4 to T3 conversion.. are you implying starch is anti-metabolism by increasing endotoxin load?

 

[XPlus]

post 112689

post 112679 Niacinamide is the most helpful substance for liver health in my experience.
Aspirin could also help.
If you have liver problems you're likely to have some degree of digestive troubles.
I'd minimise starch and fibre for a while and see how it goes.

What is the best way to take niacinamide? With food? With coffee? What about the dose?
When you said Niacinamide and Aspirin could help, do you mean you've tried k2+caffeine combo and it wasn't as helpful as your suggestions in helping liver function?

It's because this is the least invasive and one very effective approach I can think of.
Haidut mentioned using coffee and taurine to improve liver health.
The combination is very potent in my experience but I usually find keeping up with a caffeine-boosted metabolism a little difficult.
That's why taurine and perhaps milk as well as sugar along with coffee help with metabolic upkeep.

I find using niacinamide a little easier on my system overall.
I drink a lot of coffee everyday but I haven't felt it's quite as effective at any point in my healing journey.
Perhaps cyproheptadine comes second to niacinaamide, in my experience, but it's not exactly a benign approach.

My typical dose of niacinamide is 500mg, dermally, dissolved in rubbing alcohol.
You could start with 100mg and increase gradually over few weeks.
Some report benefits from higher doses, like 1,000+mg, you could try to go that far, too - but I think 500mg a day is a good maintenance dose.

The aspirin helps with a wide range of inflammation, has germicidal properties and thus is protective.
It'd take a little more K when using aspirin to balance blood viscosity.

Any digestive upset, especially when caused by bacteria fermenting fibre and starch, is going to have a negative effect on the liver.

 

[Derek]

post 112696

post 112693

post 112687

post 112649 Don't you eat starch? You can get a lot of MK7 via fermentation of starch in the gut. When not eating starch, I've got good benefits from MK7 in supplemental form; at least in terms of bone/teeth health. Lowering endotoxin, avoiding excess fat and getting enough protein I think are more important for healing the liver than caffeine/K2.

hmm interesting Derek, I eat white bread sometimes but I don't want to depend on starch to get K2. How can I know I am getting K2 from starch though? I haven't read anything that confirms this.
Lowering endotoxin.. but you advise me to eat starch. How can I reduce endotoxin while eating starch? carrot and cascara everyday?

The best way to tell you are getting K2 from starch is how white/hard/clean your teeth are. You can reduce endotoxin while eating starch by adding small amounts of coconut or palm kernel oil. Also, I personally use iodized salt so adding that to coconut/palm kernel oil with starch should help.

My teeth are usually white and in a good condition. But since I upped my Aspirin intake and did the vitamin E experiment, my teeth are becoming little bit yellowish in the bottom but not very bad. So I thought the Aspirin and vitamin E might have depleted my vitamin K stores. Does this explain why I've been craving white bread lately? There is no immediate vitamin K in the starch, does the body know foreshadowing that the starch eventually will supply it with vitamin K2?
How does iodine help with endotoxin? It increases thyroid hormone (T4) and this helps get rid of endotoxin? Coconut oil also increases T4 to T3 conversion.. are you implying starch is anti-metabolism by increasing endotoxin load?

Aspirin and E deplete you of K. This is why I don't like isolated supplements/drugs, it almost always causes imbalance. I guess you could try and balance the aspirin and E with supplemental K, or go back to taking none of them. Sounds like you had good K status before if you're teeth were hard/clean/white. There are many reasons you could be craving white bread, not just from K deficiency. I believe it's possible the body knows the starch will supply K, hence why you crave it.

Iodine is antimicrobial, that's how it lowers endotoxin. Same with coconut/palm kernel oil. Carbs are almost always pro thyroid. The only way starch is anti metabolic is when you have diminished peristalsis, it sits in your gut and ferments producing endotoxemia. You want starch to ferment, that's how you get K2 (and other vitamins/minerals); but you want it to ferment in your large intestine/colon. You don't want it to ferment in your stomach or small intestine. So the iodine/saturated fat/salt help to keep bacterial counts low in your stomach/small intestine, while also increasing thyroid function and peristalsis. And you might think iodine and saturated fat are killing all the bacteria so no production of K2. In my experience they are not that strong so I still get enough K2 via starch with saturated fat and iodized salt.

This is just my opinion. I eat a lot of starch this way and feel great. If you think it's best to eat starch, great. If you think it's better to avoid and take supplemental K2/Caffeine/Aspirin, great. Just do what you think works for you.

 

[milk_lover]

post 112705 It's because this is the least invasive and one very effective approach I can think of.
Haidut mentioned using coffee and taurine to improve liver health.
The combination is very potent in my experience but I usually find keeping up with a caffeine-boosted metabolism a little difficult.
That's why taurine and perhaps milk as well as sugar along with coffee help with metabolic upkeep.

taurine helps with metabolic upkeep because it is a protein source?

post 112705 I find using niacinamide a little easier on my system overall.
I drink a lot of coffee everyday but I haven't felt it's quite as effective at any point in my healing journey.
Perhaps cyproheptadine comes second to niacinaamide, in my experience, but it's not exactly a benign approach.

My typical dose of niacinamide is 500mg, dermally, dissolved in rubbing alcohol.
You could start with 100mg and increase gradually over few weeks.
Some report benefits from higher doses, like 1,000+mg, you could try to go that far, too - but I think 500mg a day is a good maintenance dose.

What improvements (physically/emotionally) have you noticed from niacinamide? How do you know it's working for you or not? I bought GNC 100mg niacinamide pills that have no bad ingredients as far as I know (I'm being hopeful here). I will try them tomorrow and see how I feel. For cypro, I need prescription I think, so it's difficult for me to find.

post 112705 The aspirin helps with a wide range of inflammation, has germicidal properties and thus is protective.
It'd take a little more K when using aspirin to balance blood viscosity.

Will the brand I bought (GNC mk-7 or mk-7 in general) help in this regard?

post 112705 Any digestive upset, especially when caused by bacteria fermenting fibre and starch, is going to have a negative effect on the liver.

I agree, that is why I am not sure about depending on starch to obtain my vitamin K2 like the incredible Derek suggested. Thank you XPLUS for your input.

 

[Derek]

post 112705 Any digestive upset, especially when caused by bacteria fermenting fibre and starch, is going to have a negative effect on the liver.

I don't get any digestive upset from starch, so it works for me.

 

[milk_lover]

post 112708 Aspirin and E deplete you of K. This is why I don't like isolated supplements/drugs, it almost always causes imbalance. I guess you could try and balance the aspirin and E with supplemental K, or go back to taking none of them. Sounds like you had good K status before if you're teeth were hard/clean/white. There are many reasons you could be craving white bread, not just from K deficiency. I believe it's possible the body knows the starch will supply K, hence why you crave it.

Yeah I think our bodies are smart. I would like to continue taking Aspirin, vitamin E not so much, because I am getting many benefits from it. So supplementing vitamin K2 now and then might prove helpful. I will pay attention to my teeth more closely now. I think I had a good K status before supplementing those blood thinner substances because I ate ton of cheese and milk, but more milk than cheese. Also, I was religious about eating liver almost twice weekly. That sure gave me enough vitamin K2. But the vitamin E experiment and daily use of Aspirin (~3 g/day) took a toll on my vitamin K2 stores. I need to catch up, that's why I bought this supplement, hoping it might help somewhat.

post 112708 Iodine is antimicrobial, that's how it lowers endotoxin. Same with coconut/palm kernel oil. Carbs are almost always pro thyroid. The only way starch is anti metabolic is when you have diminished peristalsis, it sits in your gut and ferments producing endotoxemia. You want starch to ferment, that's how you get K2 (and other vitamins/minerals); but you want it to ferment in your large intestine/colon. You don't want it to ferment in your stomach or small intestine. So the iodine/saturated fat/salt help to keep bacterial counts low in your stomach/small intestine, while also increasing thyroid function and peristalsis. And you might think iodine and saturated fat are killing all the bacteria so no production of K2. In my experience they are not that strong so I still get enough K2 via starch with saturated fat and iodized salt.

This is just my opinion. I eat a lot of starch this way and feel great. If you think it's best to eat starch, great. If you think it's better to avoid and take supplemental K2/Caffeine/Aspirin, great. Just do what you think works for you.

Thanks tons of helpful information here, Derek. I will keep the starch fermentation producing K2 idea in my mind. Saturated fat and iodized salt with starch helps mitigate potential problems with starch. That's good to know!

 

[Derek]

post 112713 I agree, that is why I am not sure about depending on starch to obtain my vitamin K2 like the incredible Derek suggested. Thank you XPLUS for your input.

I get a condescending response like that from you, only for me trying to help you out?

 

[Amazoniac]

post 112721

post 112713 I agree, that is why I am not sure about depending on starch to obtain my vitamin K2 like the incredible Derek suggested. Thank you XPLUS for your input.

I get a condescending response like that from you, only for me trying to help you out?

Feels weird when there's no sarcasm implied around here, doesn't it?

 

[milk_lover]

post 112721

post 112713 I agree, that is why I am not sure about depending on starch to obtain my vitamin K2 like the incredible Derek suggested. Thank you XPLUS for your input.

I get a condescending response like that from you, only for me trying to help you out?

I swear to god, in all honesty, I didn't mean it as condescending! In contrast, I feel your input was more than valuable. Read my last reply to you please. You are INCREDIBLE in my book! No shame to be impressed by someone here? :)

 

[Amazoniac]

Milk lover, I didn't feel anything from mk7 (not even long term), whereas with mk4 the effects (the most reported ones) were noticeable. Just my personal exp though..
I know it's isolated but it might be derived from GM soy, rarely chickpeas, if that's something that bothers you.

 

[XPlus]

taurine helps with metabolic upkeep because it is a protein source?

That's one possibility.
I'm not sure of it's mechanism of action but since it's specifically taurine and not another amino acid, I assume it has some special properties.
Glycine has a similar structure to Taurine, so might also serve the same purpose.

Perhaps haidut can teach us more about this.

Taurine enhances liver function and opposes caffeine jitters, hence its presence in Red Bull which is often consumed with alcohol. The problem with taurine is that you need a ratio of 12:1 taurine:caffeine in order to oppose caffeine being anxiogenic and pro-adrenalin. Incidentally, that's the ratio used in Red Bull so at least we know whoever is designing it knows their stuff, or at least reads PubMed
There are other substances that can be used in much smaller doses to oppose caffeine jitters and help the liver even more.

This is a little over 1gm (1,140mg) taurine per cup of coffee.

post 112713
What improvements (physically/emotionally) have you noticed from niacinamide? How do you know it's working for you or not? I bought GNC 100mg niacinamide pills that have no bad ingredients as far as I know (I'm being hopeful here). I will try them tomorrow and see how I feel. For cypro, I need prescription I think, so it's difficult for me to find.

There's a unique feeling of calmness to it.
I wake up in a better mood and more energised.
It seems to effectively help the liver hold more glycogen. Perhaps by lowering FFAs, the liver is given a chance to rest and heal.
If it has fillers, I'd be very careful with it. Otherwise, taking dermally is much safer than orally.
I had loose stools from using a 100mg of a pure supplement but no problem when rubbing it on my skin.
You can better observe any reactions to it when you're not changing much in your daily lifestyle and diet routine at one.

post 112713 Will the brand I bought (GNC mk-7 or mk-7 in general) help in this regard?

Supplementing vitamin K2 is said to be safer than K1, regardless of whether it's mk4 or mk7. The rule of thumb is, only you can decide whether it's good or bad. Always a good idea to be careful to observe how you react to a supplement.
I find some K1 in the Life Extention K to be OK but some caution against it, sometimes.
I'd take that dermally, too.

Are you able to get orders from iherb.com? - you'd probably find better supplements there than at your local GNC store.

post 112718 I don't get any digestive upset from starch, so it works for me.

Yes. Extra care is to be taken by those with digestive/liver issues.