Can being extremely hypothyroid cause total appetite loss?

dogtrainer

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Let’s say a person has all the typical signs of hypothyroidism - low temps, slow digestion, constipation, low energy, SIBO.

Can appetite loss be a symptom of lowered BMR? What are the main hormones driving this phenomenon, and what could someone do to start the appetite back up again?

would the best course of action be to Force foods until appetite is detected, even if forcing causes bloating, pain, etc?

or best to wait out the body until it decides it is hungry?
 

alephx

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I think this can happen if you're nutrient deficient. Even though you try to eat calories, your body can't properly use them. Have you tried eating liver for example? I would focus on highly nutrient dense foods and see how you feel.
 
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Sure I’ve eaten liver. It goes down with a struggle, like every other food. I’m also a little worried about the iron content in liver ?
 
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Appetite loss can be a sign of high cortisol/adrenaline. Both are common with hypothyrodism
 

Korven

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or best to wait out the body until it decides it is hungry?

I think that's what your body is trying to tell you when you're dealing with SIBO and loss of appetite. Any food you eat is just going to feed the bugs and exacerbate the problem. It's a super tricky catch 22 because obviously your body also needs nutrition. But I think it's better to eat smaller meals of well-digested foods (that taste and smell really good to stimulate digestion) instead of trying to force down a bunch of food when you're not hungry. And then of course trying to get rid of the bacterial overgrowth.
 

mostlylurking

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Let’s say a person has all the typical signs of hypothyroidism - low temps, slow digestion, constipation, low energy, SIBO.

Can appetite loss be a symptom of lowered BMR? What are the main hormones driving this phenomenon, and what could someone do to start the appetite back up again?

would the best course of action be to Force foods until appetite is detected, even if forcing causes bloating, pain, etc?

or best to wait out the body until it decides it is hungry?
The list of symptoms provided can also be the result of thiamine deficiency. Hypothyroidism and thiamine deficiency both block oxidative metabolism. Thiamine deficiency can destroy interest in eating. Thiamine deficiency is very common but doctors don't bother checking for it because refined carbohydrates are "fortified" with it so they think thiamine deficiency is extremely rare.


Taking a high quality B-complex plus some extra thiamine hcl can be very helpful.
 
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dogtrainer

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Appetite loss can be a sign of high cortisol/adrenaline. Both are common with hypothyrodism
This tracks well with how I feel. I know the best thing to lower cortisol would be to pound something sweet but that would cause intense bloating
The list of symptoms provided can also be the result of thiamine deficiency. Hypothyroidism and thiamine deficiency both block oxidative metabolism. Thiamine deficiency can destroy interest in eating. Thiamine deficiency is very common but doctors don't bother checking for it because refined carbohydrates are "fortified" with it so they think it is extremely rare.


Taking a high quality B-complex plus some extra thiamine hcl can be very helpful.
i supplement a lot of TTFD daily. It seems to maaaaaybe help motility a tiny bit on some days. But I do not see any trend in the direction of more hunger.
Perhaps I am just wasting it?
 

mostlylurking

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This tracks well with how I feel. I know the best thing to lower cortisol would be to pound something sweet but that would cause intense bloating

i supplement a lot of TTFD daily. It seems to maaaaaybe help motility a tiny bit on some days. But I do not see any trend in the direction of more hunger.
Perhaps I am just wasting it?
I'm supplementing with 2 grams of thiamine hcl daily. It solved my motility issue in two days when I got up to the 2 grams. I'm following Dr. Costantini's protocol here: HDT Therapy

I couldn't tolerate TTFD; it gave me a headache that lasted 36 hours from one pill. So I stuck with thiamine hcl. It has been extremely helpful for me.

I have no idea how much TTFD equals 2 grams of thiamine hcl. It would be nice if there was a conversion chart but I've never found one. They say thiamine hcl doesn't cross the blood/brain barrier as well as TTFD but my brain fog resolved via the thiamine hcl.
 

Dr. B

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The list of symptoms provided can also be the result of thiamine deficiency. Hypothyroidism and thiamine deficiency both block oxidative metabolism. Thiamine deficiency can destroy interest in eating. Thiamine deficiency is very common but doctors don't bother checking for it because refined carbohydrates are "fortified" with it so they think thiamine deficiency is extremely rare.


Taking a high quality B-complex plus some extra thiamine hcl can be very helpful.
the b complex seem to cause fatigue over time, couldnt supplementing b vitamins, even a b complex, lead to deficiencies in other nutrients. ive seen charts on some sites listing out nutrient interactions and every single b vitamin depletes or promotes absorption of other vitamins/minerals... i think thiamine can deplete both b6 and magnesium, b6 can deplete thiamine. plus the b complex supplements only contain the b vitamins we have identified and studied whereas liver could contain hundreds of other unidentified factors or vitamins and minerals.

its odd that as metabolism goes down, you eat less food yet actually get fatter. when i was at my leanest i would have insane cheatdays eating 8k+ calories within 12 hours because my metabolism and digestion was fast. i would also get much warmer from eating that amount of food and burning it off.

another thing is, how should cortisol properly be lowered? it seems elevated for a reason. the supplements like pregnenolone which some say lower cortisol, actually hav a massive weight gain effect in some people!
 

mostlylurking

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the b complex seem to cause fatigue over time, couldnt supplementing b vitamins, even a b complex, lead to deficiencies in other nutrients. ive seen charts on some sites listing out nutrient interactions and every single b vitamin depletes or promotes absorption of other vitamins/minerals... i think thiamine can deplete both b6 and magnesium, b6 can deplete thiamine. plus the b complex supplements only contain the b vitamins we have identified and studied whereas liver could contain hundreds of other unidentified factors or vitamins and minerals.
I'm taking the b-complex to supply a little bit of b-6. I'm also taking 1200mg magnesium glycinate/day. I also supplement additional riboflavin and niacinamide.
its odd that as metabolism goes down, you eat less food yet actually get fatter. when i was at my leanest i would have insane cheatdays eating 8k+ calories within 12 hours because my metabolism and digestion was fast. i would also get much warmer from eating that amount of food and burning it off.
My thiamine function got blocked by the antibiotic Bactrim last summer. I packed on 25 pounds in 2 months and felt like hell. I've learned via Dr. Chandler Marrs that if your thiamine function is blocked you can't make ATP from glucose (or from fat either) so your body packs them away as fat very efficiently.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkKmiZkiEPI

another thing is, how should cortisol properly be lowered? it seems elevated for a reason. the supplements like pregnenolone which some say lower cortisol, actually hav a massive weight gain effect in some people!
I also doubled my pregnenolone dosage several months ago and it helped me a lot. I've only lost maybe 10 pounds of the recently acquired 25 so far so the weight loss is taking a lot of time. Lowering the pregnenolone might help with the weight loss but I'm not willing to give up my noticeable health improvement. I love pregnenolone.
 
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How is your protein intake?

"A simple protein deficiency has many surprising effects. It lowers body temperature, and suppresses the thyroid, but it increases inflammation and the tendency of blood to clot. Since the brain and heart and lungs require a continuous supply of essential amino acids if they are to continue functioning, in the absence of dietary protein, cortisol must be produced continuously to mobilize amino acids from the expendable tissues, which are mainly the skeletal muscles." - Ray Peat

An extract from interview

HD2: So, a high-calcium diet, in conjunction with a high protein diet, and a high-fruit diet is what basically what you're suggesting?

RP: Yah. That's why, as a quick therapy diet, I recommend a person having at least two quarts of milk and two quarts of orange juice every day to get the thyroid going and suppress inflammation and help the liver regulate things.

HD2: When you recommend that to people, do you recommend that they have it in place of breakfast and lunch? Or as well as their normal three meals a day?

RP: As it starts working, it will increase their caloric needs, so that if they had been maintaining their weight on 1,000 or 1,500 calories, as the milk and orange juice start to activate their thyroid hormone and lower the estrogen and cortisol, they will gradually be able to increase their caloric intake up to at least 2,000 calories a day.

HD2: Well that's quite incredible.

RP: We haven't said much about high blood pressure. But the same diet, increasing your thyroid function, regulates the mineral balance. Such that it lowers your adrenaline, lowers the sympathetic nervous system activity’, and allows the minerals to be balanced with water. So that increased thyroid function lowers blood pressure (although many doctors have been misled on this issue).
 
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dogtrainer

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How is your protein intake?

"A simple protein deficiency has many surprising effects. It lowers body temperature, and suppresses the thyroid, but it increases inflammation and the tendency of blood to clot. Since the brain and heart and lungs require a continuous supply of essential amino acids if they are to continue functioning, in the absence of dietary protein, cortisol must be produced continuously to mobilize amino acids from the expendable tissues, which are mainly the skeletal muscles." - Ray Peat

An extract from interview

HD2: So, a high-calcium diet, in conjunction with a high protein diet, and a high-fruit diet is what basically what you're suggesting?

RP: Yah. That's why, as a quick therapy diet, I recommend a person having at least two quarts of milk and two quarts of orange juice every day to get the thyroid going and suppress inflammation and help the liver regulate things.

HD2: When you recommend that to people, do you recommend that they have it in place of breakfast and lunch? Or as well as their normal three meals a day?

RP: As it starts working, it will increase their caloric needs, so that if they had been maintaining their weight on 1,000 or 1,500 calories, as the milk and orange juice start to activate their thyroid hormone and lower the estrogen and cortisol, they will gradually be able to increase their caloric intake up to at least 2,000 calories a day.

HD2: Well that's quite incredible.

RP: We haven't said much about high blood pressure. But the same diet, increasing your thyroid function, regulates the mineral balance. Such that it lowers your adrenaline, lowers the sympathetic nervous system activity’, and allows the minerals to be balanced with water. So that increased thyroid function lowers blood pressure (although many doctors have been misled on this issue).
My protein intake sucks ****. i never get hungry and everything causes this ridiculous 6 month pregnant bloating.
I’m actually in the process of trying to get screen for ovarian cancer, as foods that should be very digestible (not gas producing) cause this extreme bloating usually with 20 minutes.

taking in 1000 calories of plain meat is a struggle. The last time I tried to add a spoon honey, I Bloated up terrible and stayed that way two days. This has not always been the case. in fact March of this year I could eat cottage cheese, honey, oranges, carrots. Not anymore.
 

Dr. B

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I'm taking the b-complex to supply a little bit of b-6. I'm also taking 1200mg magnesium glycinate/day. I also supplement additional riboflavin and niacinamide.

My thiamine function got blocked by the antibiotic Bactrim last summer. I packed on 25 pounds in 2 months and felt like hell. I've learned via Dr. Chandler Marrs that if your thiamine function is blocked you can't make ATP from glucose (or from fat either) so your body packs them away as fat very efficiently.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkKmiZkiEPI


I also doubled my pregnenolone dosage several months ago and it helped me a lot. I've only lost maybe 10 pounds of the recently acquired 25 so far so the weight loss is taking a lot of time. Lowering the pregnenolone might help with the weight loss but I'm not willing to give up my noticeable health improvement. I love pregnenolone.


wouldnt these dosages of magnesium and thiamine massively decrease calcium and manganese? which are needed. why do you need 2 grams of thiamine why not something like 10milligrams a day?
 

Dr. B

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Really? How did you climb out of the hole? I’m not skinny BTW I’m the fattest I’ve ever been at the lowest calorie intake.
it sounds like cortisol.
it really doesnt matter how much you restrict calories because cortisol will just keep turning your existing muscle mass into sugar and fat. maybe once you lose all your muscle mass, or enough of it, you may start also losing more fat and then looking sickly skinny. im not sure what triggers the extreme cortisol it could be some sort of autoimmune reaction going on, inflammation in the body somewhere
btw plain meat isnt advised... that in itself is a problem you may want to look for a good A2, 100% grass fed milk in your area with no vitamins added... the milk should digest better than bread, beans, starches and most things...plus look for organic orange juice
 
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dogtrainer

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it sounds like cortisol.
it really doesnt matter how much you restrict calories because cortisol will just keep turning your existing muscle mass into sugar and fat. maybe once you lose all your muscle mass, or enough of it, you may start also losing more fat and then looking sickly skinny. im not sure what triggers the extreme cortisol it could be some sort of autoimmune reaction going on, inflammation in the body somewhere
btw plain meat isnt advised... that in itself is a problem you may want to look for a good A2, 100% grass fed milk in your area with no vitamins added... the milk should digest better than bread, beans, starches and most things...plus look for organic orange juice
Maybe I should go straight up natural and try to find a breast milk donor ?

in all seriousness thank you for your advice. Milk has been way way way bad for me in the past but perhaps it’s what I need to unlock this horrible stressed state I’m in
 

mostlylurking

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wouldnt these dosages of magnesium and thiamine massively decrease calcium and manganese? which are needed. why do you need 2 grams of thiamine why not something like 10milligrams a day?
I drink a LOT of 1% milk and have done so for the 6 years I have followed Ray Peat. I use maple syrup (source for manganese) for sweetening the milk.

I have a 25+ year history of gut disbiosis including leaky gut and SIBO. This is typical of people who get Parkinson's Disease. I've also had severe inflammation issues for over 50 years along with hypothyroidism (I take a good desiccated thyroid med via an endocrinologist). I also have been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis (in remission). I'm 71.

Last summer, I took Bactim antibiotic for an infection. Afterwards, I quickly gained 25 pounds and was overwhelmed with lactic acidosis for months. My thyroid med had stopped helping me and my 3T was dangerously high AND my temperature was below normal all day long and it had been that way for weeks. Then I tried some thiamine hcl (about 250mg) and the inflammation cleared and my low temperature normalized within 45 minutes. The endo doctor lowered my thyroid medication dose even though I was very symptomatic. Thiamine blockage and hypothyroidism have very similar symptoms. The doctor did not have knowledge about thiamine issues so I researched on my own.

I searched online and found this article: Bactrim: An Anti-Folate, Anti-Thiamine, Potassium Altering Drug - Hormones Matter

I stair-stepped up my dosage of thiamine hcl because each dose would work for a few days and then stop working. I developed a tremor in my right hand. I found Dr Costantini's site and decided to follow his recommended dose for thiamine hcl that he used for his Parkinson's patients. It is based on kilo weight. Link: HDT Therapy This dose has helped me a lot. The hand tremor has disappeared. So has the incontinence. So has the gut disbiosis. I can walk straight again. I can work in my garden again. I've got my life back.

I've done a lot of reading about thiamine. I am confident that I am pursuing the correct path for my health.

Sources for information about thiamine:
Dr. Costantini's site: HDT Therapy
Elliott Overton's youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/EONutrition/videos
Dr. Chandler Marrs' website: You searched for thiamine - Hormones Matter

I'm a big fan of Ray Peat; I believe he saved my life six years ago. However, he doesn't have a whole lot to say about thiamine other than mentioning it in some articles about it being helpful. He has said that if you eat additional sugars you will probably need to supplement with some thiamine.

I think that the most impressive information I've found about the possibilities of high dose thiamine is the before/during/after thiamine supplementation videos of Dr. Costantini's patients. Here's a link: Videos Parkinson's Patients before and after treatment - Ultima Edizione.Eu Scroll down and watch the 3 videos of Bruno. These videos are very short, usually less than 1 minute each. These patients were treated with 100mg thiamine hcl by injection. Dr. Costantini provides the information for the amount of oral dosages equivalent to the injected dosage. Dr. Costantini treated over 4,000 Parkinson's Disease patients with high dose thiamine. Unfortunately, he died in 2019.
 
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Peatness

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My protein intake sucks ****. i never get hungry and everything causes this ridiculous 6 month pregnant bloating.
I’m actually in the process of trying to get screen for ovarian cancer, as foods that should be very digestible (not gas producing) cause this extreme bloating usually with 20 minutes.

taking in 1000 calories of plain meat is a struggle. The last time I tried to add a spoon honey, I Bloated up terrible and stayed that way two days. This has not always been the case. in fact March of this year I could eat cottage cheese, honey, oranges, carrots. Not anymore.
Bloating could be lack of bile, low stomach acid, or digestive enzymes. You dont want "1000 calories of plain meat". If you work on lowering cortisol and adrenaline things might improve. Perhaps try the potatoes juice protein, it's a pain to make but it might help.

Ray Peat on Handling Protein

RAY PEAT: The amino acids in the protein themselves are strong stimulants of the insulin secretion and when you don't take in sugar, the insulin to dispose of the protein will lower your blood sugar and to prevent the blood sugar going down you tend to produce either adrenalin or cortisol or both. And if your liver didn't have the glycogen stored to release glucose under the influence of adrenalin, then you depend on cortisol to keep your blood sugar steady and cortisol activates the conversion of protein to sugar and fat and so you've destroyed a big part of the protein that you've just eaten. I've seen people who were eating a couple of pounds of meat a day who were having signs of protein deficiency and getting fat. So to handle the protein efficiently you need the glucose to make sure that your insulin isn't lowering your blood sugar, you need either glucose or fructose to steady your blood sugar. And the fat does several things. The saturated fat works with fructose and insulin to handle your oxidation of the glucose and the fat also slows the absorption so that you don't get a surge of glucose in your blood when you, say, have coffee with sugar. And the coffee, like the glucose, stimulates your metabolic rate and both of those, by increasing your metabolic rate, are going to increase your general nutritional requirements: minerals and all of the vitamins have to be adequate and if you don’t substitute the sugar for things like fruit, milk, cheese, shellfish, eggs and so on, then you will very likely become deficient in biotin and Vitamin B6 and pantothenic acid, selenium and copper are things that are among the first to become deficient if you try to run on too much coffee and sugar and not enough food"
 
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dogtrainer

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Bloating could be lack of bile, low stomach acid, or digestive enzymes. You dont want "1000 calories of plain meat". If you work on lowering cortisol and adrenaline things might improve. Perhaps try the potatoes juice protein, it's a pain to make but it might help.

Ray Peat on Handling Protein

RAY PEAT: The amino acids in the protein themselves are strong stimulants of the insulin secretion and when you don't take in sugar, the insulin to dispose of the protein will lower your blood sugar and to prevent the blood sugar going down you tend to produce either adrenalin or cortisol or both. And if your liver didn't have the glycogen stored to release glucose under the influence of adrenalin, then you depend on cortisol to keep your blood sugar steady and cortisol activates the conversion of protein to sugar and fat and so you've destroyed a big part of the protein that you've just eaten. I've seen people who were eating a couple of pounds of meat a day who were having signs of protein deficiency and getting fat. So to handle the protein efficiently you need the glucose to make sure that your insulin isn't lowering your blood sugar, you need either glucose or fructose to steady your blood sugar. And the fat does several things. The saturated fat works with fructose and insulin to handle your oxidation of the glucose and the fat also slows the absorption so that you don't get a surge of glucose in your blood when you, say, have coffee with sugar. And the coffee, like the glucose, stimulates your metabolic rate and both of those, by increasing your metabolic rate, are going to increase your general nutritional requirements: minerals and all of the vitamins have to be adequate and if you don’t substitute the sugar for things like fruit, milk, cheese, shellfish, eggs and so on, then you will very likely become deficient in biotin and Vitamin B6 and pantothenic acid, selenium and copper are things that are among the first to become deficient if you try to run on too much coffee and sugar and not enough food"
Thanks that is actually very helpful. I know all these logically but it sounds like yeah I’m going to just have to deal with some symptoms in order to get some type of glucose into me
 

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