Calorie-restricted Rats Live 50% Longer - What's Wrong With The Methodology?

[ANDREW CHIN]

In response to the OP - there’s likely nothing wrong with the methodology. It seems to be a pretty well established finding that caloric restriction can extend lifespan.

That being said, caloric restriction is NOT fasting. And a rich and nourishing diet broken up by periodic fasting, appears to be much more beneficial. Otherwise you’re always in “breakdown” mode with none of the “rebuild” mode.

I find the RP forums to be more focused on the latter, but from what I’ve read periods of fasting are very beneficial. Beyond any effects on endotoxin or any of that stuff. Yeast flies mice and human studies all seem to corroborate this.

It’s also the natural state for humans - short periods of fasting and periods of feasting. And due to energy always being a scarce commodity, your body tends to defer repairs until there’s no food around. So if you never give it an extended fast (a few days, NOT “intermittent” fasting) then it may never get a chance to do some of those repairs.

Google Valter Longo and fasting mimicking diet for more info.There’s a periodic fasting study showing regeneration of certain organs which have hitherto been thought lost forever, such as the pancreatic B cells in type 1 diabetics.

I've been wondering about the thymus gland melting away during fasting. Once it starts to disintegrate, will it fully regenerate once you break the fast and start eating normally again? I can see the skin and musculature returning to normal, but what about the thymus?

 

[rei]

What normally is spoken of as fasting, therapeutic fasting, is so short duration that mainly unnecessary tissue is recycled. Vital parts don't get broken down before all unnecessary ones have been. The catabolism of fasting is hugely exaggerated, and even 99% of med students are brainwashed into believing fasting glucose comes largely from muscle protein.

Truth is that we have many parallel pathways that optimize our fasting response, and we in fact can make glucose in needed amounts from triglyceride backbone and ketone. Protein breakdown beyond recycling of unnecessary/bad cells is when you can start talking about starvation response, and this is 48-96 hours into your fast depending on situation/health.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

In response to the OP - there’s likely nothing wrong with the methodology. It seems to be a pretty well established finding that caloric restriction can extend lifespan.

That being said, caloric restriction is NOT fasting. And a rich and nourishing diet broken up by periodic fasting, appears to be much more beneficial. Otherwise you’re always in “breakdown” mode with none of the “rebuild” mode.

I find the RP forums to be more focused on the latter, but from what I’ve read periods of fasting are very beneficial. Beyond any effects on endotoxin or any of that stuff. Yeast flies mice and human studies all seem to corroborate this.

It’s also the natural state for humans - short periods of fasting and periods of feasting. And due to energy always being a scarce commodity, your body tends to defer repairs until there’s no food around. So if you never give it an extended fast (a few days, NOT “intermittent” fasting) then it may never get a chance to do some of those repairs.

Google Valter Longo and fasting mimicking diet for more info.There’s a periodic fasting study showing regeneration of certain organs which have hitherto been thought lost forever, such as the pancreatic B cells in type 1 diabetics.

My conclusions on currently available research also, including the Peat-stance.

Unlimited energy intake let’s the body „build build build“ so to speak, but periods of autophagy are needed to repair and reorganize - or else the „construction site“ incorporates too many botch-up jobs.

And you need decent „materiel“ to begin with, minerals and vitamins, not only sugar to burn.

 

[charlie]

I actually know a lot of people who started feeling this way starting early 2016. Maybe new cell towers were built or something, I don't really know what's going on.

I think I know what is going on.

Started with me round 2016 too. Things just all of a sudden started going down hill.

 

[oldmanthunder]

caloric restriction is not akin to starving. In the Minnesota starvation experiment, subjects were already lean and cut 40% of their caloric intake, which is absolutely huge and is definitely stressful. Conceptually, there's no reason that cutting a more reasonable percentage of caloric intake (5-15%), especially when overweight should have the same effect on stress(aka starvation), especially if other lifestyle factors are put in place to reduce stress.

 

[Goobz]

I've been wondering about the thymus gland melting away during fasting. Once it starts to disintegrate, will it fully regenerate once you break the fast and start eating normally again? I can see the skin and musculature returning to normal, but what about the thymus?

Great question. I’m not sure about the thymus particularly, but the immune system most certainly regenerates. And cycles of periodic fasting lead to an immune profile resembling closer to youth. I think it was the the ratio of cells from the lymphoid / myeloid lineage, but can’t quite remember. But “regeneration of the immune system” is what they referred to it as. I’ll dig up the study if I can find it.

I think there’s also a study they did, where cancer patients undergoing chemo who lost a lot of immune function, saw a lot of it regenerate after cycles of fasting (it is a fasting mimicking diet that’s mostly being used in the studies I’m referring to).

However this effect is NOT seen with caloric restriction. You need to fast and then refeed, with all the necessary nutrients.

Also, the cycling of this process involves hormones going up and down in cycles, including the “dreaded” cortisol and estrogen etc. But it’s a well orchestrated process and one that is short term, and it appears very beneficial. I believe sex hormones go down temporarily, then rebound during and after the refeeding stage to go to a higher new baseline.

It’s a well orchestrated process that seems to preferentially seek out damaged cells. Cancer cells etc. And then many of the old damaged cells which die off, are replaced with new ones via stem cells.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

What normally is spoken of as fasting, therapeutic fasting, is so short duration that mainly unnecessary tissue is recycled. Vital parts don't get broken down before all unnecessary ones have been. The catabolism of fasting is hugely exaggerated, and even 99% of med students are brainwashed into believing fasting glucose comes largely from muscle protein.

Truth is that we have many parallel pathways that optimize our fasting response, and we in fact can make glucose in needed amounts from triglyceride backbone and ketone. Protein breakdown beyond recycling of unnecessary/bad cells is when you can start talking about starvation response, and this is 48-96 hours into your fast depending on situation/health.

@rei - so you think that intermittent fasting or a slight calorie restriction is beneficial and more serious fasting (48+ hours) „unneccesary“

 

[Goobz]

What normally is spoken of as fasting, therapeutic fasting, is so short duration that mainly unnecessary tissue is recycled. Vital parts don't get broken down before all unnecessary ones have been. The catabolism of fasting is hugely exaggerated, and even 99% of med students are brainwashed into believing fasting glucose comes largely from muscle protein.

Truth is that we have many parallel pathways that optimize our fasting response, and we in fact can make glucose in needed amounts from triglyceride backbone and ketone. Protein breakdown beyond recycling of unnecessary/bad cells is when you can start talking about starvation response, and this is 48-96 hours into your fast depending on situation/health.

Yep, that’s why the benefits of “intermittent fasting” don’t come near a true periodic fast, which needs to be multiple days, probably 4-5 at least.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Yep, that’s why the benefits of “intermittent fasting” don’t come near a true periodic fast, which needs to be multiple days, probably 4-5 at least.

I understand it the other way round, that @rei thinks that IF is sufficient for autophagy/AMPK-mediated effects and real fasting is not beneficial any further

Though a fast and feast approach based on hunter - gatherer aspects seems to insinuate a longer period of fasting

 

[Goobz]

I understand it the other way round, that @rei thinks that IF is sufficient for autophagy/AMPK-mediated effects and real fasting is not beneficial any further

Though a fast and feast approach based on hunter - gatherer aspects seems to insinuate a longer period of fasting

I’m not sure what he means, but the evidence shows that periods of so called intermittent fasting or time restricted eating are insufficient to get the benefits of a period fast, water only fast, or a fasting mimicking diet.

It takes a few days before the body switches over into the full fasting mode, where all the benefits occur. Along with the refeeding period.

 

[Goobz]

https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(15)00224-7?_returnURL=https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1550413115002247?showall=true

A Periodic Diet that Mimics Fasting Promotes Multi-System Regeneration, Enhanced Cognitive Performance, and Healthspan

 

[lampofred]

I think I know what is going on.

Started with me round 2016 too. Things just all of a sudden started going down hill.

What do you think is the cause? My hypothesis is a combination of overstimulation from increasing WiFi radiation, birth control build-up in our shower water and drinking water, and anti-T3 ideology being pushed in med school because governments know T3 is necessary for testosterone production, so they are trying to keep testosterone/aggression low in the population in order to prevent another world war from occurring. I think that because all this pro-PUFA stuff started right after WWII.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Testosterone is not causative to aggression. But maybe they didn’t know that and guessed wrong.

 

[lampofred]

Testosterone is not causative to aggression. But maybe they didn’t know that and guessed wrong.

It's not but testosterone is what gives you the power to carry out aggressive acts. Someone can be aggressive but without testosterone will not have the power to do any damage. In the short-run it's faster to castrate a population than to change a culture which prizes colonization, conquering and dominating others.

 

[dudinator]

What do you think is the cause? My hypothesis is a combination of overstimulation from increasing WiFi radiation, birth control build-up in our shower water and drinking water, and anti-T3 ideology being pushed in med school because governments know T3 is necessary for testosterone production, so they are trying to keep testosterone/aggression low in the population in order to prevent another world war from occurring. I think that because all this pro-PUFA stuff started right after WWII.

For me at least, I think it's 90% increased EMF exposure. The sudden uptick wouldn't make much sense with birth control build up, nor would it under the light of it occurring in many places at once. I don't see how an anti-T3 stance would cause that sort of pattern as well, aside from people not recovering from their health decline.

After reading The Non-Tinfoil Hat Guide to EMF, I simply hooked everything up in our house to ethernet, and now keep my phone's signals off or at least far away from my body. Those two things alone had me saying "oh, hello, I haven't seen you in a LOOOONG time" and never even realized I was gone. Since 2011, when I got a smart phone, my personality had changed to being more talkative, analytical, emotionless, and ADHD/impulsive. I never put the two together until I removed them and suddenly I was my relatively calmer more artistic self again within a month (there was a detox period in there that was pretty severe, staring at a wall, shivering and crying, etc...). My digestion also improved, but I still have my chronic condition and have basically switched to a liquid diet until I can move out of the cities into the country.

Whenever I'm out in the country for a few days I get extremely tired and hungry for a few days, and then eventually feel great. The benefits don't stay long however.

If you look it up, Comcast has in the last few years implemented their new plan for a 5gHz connection for guests to use outside your home as universal hot-spots. I think this is the main culprit and follows along with a nation wide uptick in gut/brain/probably gonadal barrier function disorders, as it is far easier to quickly implement this kind of idea than it is to suddenly install thousands of cell towers. However, the towers and the signal produced by your phone are still important too. I've tested both, and they really do act as some kind of bizarre stimulant. I'm sure RP wouldn't be surprised in the least with all he knows of Biochem, of which I am but a BS in.

I also wouldn't downplay outdoor and especially indoor air quality. Consumer goods like carpeting and upholstery are always getting cheaper somehow in our Eternal Growth Society (GDP up, up, UP!), and people are filling their houses with this off-gassing ***t that is killing them.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I think I know what is going on.

Started with me round 2016 too. Things just all of a sudden started going down hill.

Interested in knowing what you think it is that changed.

I thought I was just getting more and more fed up with living in the city, which is true, but it does seem like something else is going on. I can't quite put my finger on it, though. The idea of the increased EMF exposure is one of the best explanations, I think. Maybe they are trying some new very strong signal that they haven't even talked about yet.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

For me at least, I think it's 90% increased EMF exposure. The sudden uptick wouldn't make much sense with birth control build up, nor would it under the light of it occurring in many places at once. I don't see how an anti-T3 stance would cause that sort of pattern as well, aside from people not recovering from their health decline.

After reading The Non-Tinfoil Hat Guide to EMF, I simply hooked everything up in our house to ethernet, and now keep my phone's signals off or at least far away from my body. Those two things alone had me saying "oh, hello, I haven't seen you in a LOOOONG time" and never even realized I was gone. Since 2011, when I got a smart phone, my personality had changed to being more talkative, analytical, emotionless, and ADHD/impulsive. I never put the two together until I removed them and suddenly I was my relatively calmer more artistic self again within a month (there was a detox period in there that was pretty severe, staring at a wall, shivering and crying, etc...). My digestion also improved, but I still have my chronic condition and have basically switched to a liquid diet until I can move out of the cities into the country.

Whenever I'm out in the country for a few days I get extremely tired and hungry for a few days, and then eventually feel great. The benefits don't stay long however.

If you look it up, Comcast has in the last few years implemented their new plan for a 5gHz connection for guests to use outside your home as universal hot-spots. I think this is the main culprit and follows along with a nation wide uptick in gut/brain/probably gonadal barrier function disorders, as it is far easier to quickly implement this kind of idea than it is to suddenly install thousands of cell towers. However, the towers and the signal produced by your phone are still important too. I've tested both, and they really do act as some kind of bizarre stimulant. I'm sure RP wouldn't be surprised in the least with all he knows of Biochem, of which I am but a BS in.

I also wouldn't downplay outdoor and especially indoor air quality. Consumer goods like carpeting and upholstery are always getting cheaper somehow in our Eternal Growth Society (GDP up, up, UP!), and people are filling their houses with this off-gassing ***t that is killing them.

For a while now I've been using buses instead of cars as a means of transportation, and 2 buses out of 3 that go in the direction that I want have wi-fi, and it's "being tested". I make sure to never take those buses. I worry about the health of the bus-drivers. They work for hours almost everyday, and all the while, they are exposed to that radiation. I've never seen a bus-drivers who at least looked healthy, all of them seem to have a cortisol belly and very thin arms.

 

[Inspired]

I've got to get some T3 and see what it's all about.