Calling Time On Ray Peat

[chispas]

I appreciate Ray's thoughts as an internet health personality, and I think he has some good points, but I think his ideas are an incomplete picture, and ultimately they don't lead to any new or helpful knowledge.

I suppose I humbly disagree that a "good diet" and a "good environment" can preserve health. I think both can contribute substantially, but I don't think that Ray's picture is the full picture.

I do agree that modern medicine is dogmatic and illogical at times, and this is a tragic misuse of science and technology. But writing lonely articles about it won't create change. Ray is very talented, but he hasn't attempted to use his talents to strongly disrupt the prevailing powers he dissents against.

He defers key aspects of his reasonings to Gilbert Ling, but Ray isn't a qualified chemist, and I believe he is using his talent as a linguist to blush over the finer points, as well as disguise the failings in Ling's claims. I don't really know why he does this. I mean, there is crystal spectrometry imaging of human cells that demonstrate reality aligning with the current model. Also, the current model is far more sophisticated than the "bags of water" description Ray often alleges. It is a straw man argument. No one says this.

I asked Danny Roddy about this, and he said he doesn't understand Gilbert Ling at all, but still believes Peat is absolutely right. To date, no one on this forum can engage directly with the claims of Ling. Even if turns out Ling is absolutely correct, no one has specified what the consequences of Ling's model are. Ling himself uses the term Hypothesis, which indicates there is further room for discussion.

Anyway, I've started consuming less sugar and nothing bad happened. I returned to eating normally, enjoying a few scrambled eggs. I no longer drink juice and crappy light milk. Over time this high liquid protocol lowered my cholesterol, and flattened my sex drive. I feel hungry now in a good, heathy way that feels good and stimulates my appetite, and I don't worry about food and iron and vitamin C and all that stuff, it just causes unnecessary concern.

If Ray Peat even lives to 100, I will eat my shoe with PUFA sauce drizzled on top.

 

[cyclops]

I don't think Peat recommends "crappy" light milk. It sucks if thats all you can get. Whats your current diet now?

 

[raypeatclips]

I appreciate Ray's thoughts as an internet health personality, and I think he has some good points, but I think his ideas are an incomplete picture, and ultimately they don't lead to any new or helpful knowledge.

I suppose I humbly disagree that a "good diet" and a "good environment" can preserve health. I think both can contribute substantially, but I don't think that Ray's picture is the full picture.

I do agree that modern medicine is dogmatic and illogical at times, and this is a tragic misuse of science and technology. But writing lonely articles about it won't create change. Ray is very talented, but he hasn't attempted to use his talents to strongly disrupt the prevailing powers he dissents against.

He defers key aspects of his reasonings to Gilbert Ling, but Ray isn't a qualified chemist, and I believe he is using his talent as a linguist to blush over the finer points, as well as disguise the failings in Ling's claims. I don't really know why he does this. I mean, there is crystal spectrometry imaging of human cells that demonstrate reality aligning with the current model. Also, the current model is far more sophisticated than the "bags of water" description Ray often alleges. It is a straw man argument. No one says this.

I asked Danny Roddy about this, and he said he doesn't understand Gilbert Ling at all, but still believes Peat is absolutely right. To date, no one on this forum can engage directly with the claims of Ling. Even if turns out Ling is absolutely correct, no one has specified what the consequences of Ling's model are. Ling himself uses the term Hypothesis, which indicates there is further room for discussion.

Anyway, I've started consuming less sugar and nothing bad happened. I returned to eating normally, enjoying a few scrambled eggs. I no longer drink juice and crappy light milk. Over time this high liquid protocol lowered my cholesterol, and flattened my sex drive. I feel hungry now in a good, heathy way that feels good and stimulates my appetite, and I don't worry about food and iron and vitamin C and all that stuff, it just causes unnecessary concern.

If Ray Peat even lives to 100, I will eat my shoe with PUFA sauce drizzled on top.

I remember some of your old posts and finding them very interesting and would like to know your current way of thinking. I saw you said you disagree diet or environment can preserve health, what have you decided is the best way to preserve health?

You mention at the end PUFA, are you going back and eating some sort of SAD diet now, or do you still incorporate small aspects of the "Peat" way in your current dietary model? (Such as no starch, no pufa, eating liver regularly)

 

[yerrag]

Good points. Certainly good to have the feeling that in you that Ray Peat doesn't provide the full picture. I feel that way myself. I've got my own issues that he can't provide answers to and solve, but that's just fine with me. What I've learned most from his writing is that I have to understand my context, and that will help me a lot. In the process of understanding my context, reading him has made it easier to work towards that better understanding. I don't fault Peat for not aiming to disrupt the establishment. Perhaps he won't be around anymore if he does so. Just being below the radar suits him fine. If he can be a good resource for the few, he will have changed a few of us for the better. Out of ten people, how many would you consider to be that inquisitive and much lacking in gullibility to want to discover things, time permitting? It's important for me that people speak with coherence. There is a structure to it, a deliberate attempt to organize and to build by putting together well-built stacks upon solid foundations. This is what gravitates me towards Ray Peat. It makes sense to me that he appreciates Gilbert Ling's work, because he appreciates the sound logic behind it. That he scoffs at the idea of pumps for every conceivable construct put in the way of explaining a condition in human physiology, is something I take delight in.

Ray Peat is for the patient person. He lays out ideas, and leaves you to think these ideas over. Often, he discovers things by experimenting, but his experimentation is not out of a whim, but out of careful thinking. If you asked him why he is doing a particular experiment on himself, I'm pretty sure he can give you a detailed explanation as to why he thinks it may work. He has a hypothesis to prove, and to craft a hypothesis one needs a bit of knowledge that existed, not like a rabbit pulled out of thin air. I think if the sugar didn't work for you, you should be the one to ask why the sugar didn't work in your context. You need to dig more into yourself and into what's available as resources - textbooks, studies, this forum, Peat's writings, interviews. Be a detective in your own right, and when you start finding answers, you'll be well along the way to the road to your own health. If you say less sugar is better for you, you'd have to explain to yourself why as well.

 

[Simba1992]

Good points. Certainly good to have the feeling that in you that Ray Peat doesn't provide the full picture. I feel that way myself. I've got my own issues that he can't provide answers to and solve, but that's just fine with me. What I've learned most from his writing is that I have to understand my context, and that will help me a lot. In the process of understanding my context, reading him has made it easier to work towards that better understanding. I don't fault Peat for not aiming to disrupt the establishment. Perhaps he won't be around anymore if he does so. Just being below the radar suits him fine. If he can be a good resource for the few, he will have changed a few of us for the better. Out of ten people, how many would you consider to be that inquisitive and much lacking in gullibility to want to discover things, time permitting? It's important for me that people speak with coherence. There is a structure to it, a deliberate attempt to organize and to build by putting together well-built stacks upon solid foundations. This is what gravitates me towards Ray Peat. It makes sense to me that he appreciates Gilbert Ling's work, because he appreciates the sound logic behind it. That he scoffs at the idea of pumps for every conceivable construct put in the way of explaining a condition in human physiology, is something I take delight in.

Ray Peat is for the patient person. He lays out ideas, and leaves you to think these ideas over. Often, he discovers things by experimenting, but his experimentation is not out of a whim, but out of careful thinking. If you asked him why he is doing a particular experiment on himself, I'm pretty sure he can give you a detailed explanation as to why he thinks it may work. He has a hypothesis to prove, and to craft a hypothesis one needs a bit of knowledge that existed, not like a rabbit pulled out of thin air. I think if the sugar didn't work for you, you should be the one to ask why the sugar didn't work in your context. You need to dig more into yourself and into what's available as resources - textbooks, studies, this forum, Peat's writings, interviews. Be a detective in your own right, and when you start finding answers, you'll be well along the way to the road to your own health. If you say less sugar is better for you, you'd have to explain to yourself why as well.

Well said

 

[Sepulchrave]

I agree that a diet of 2 quarts of skim milk and a quart of OJ per day cannot be tolerated for long. Maybe this is something that works for him.

But his ideas are sound and you can use them to figure out a more normal diet. For instance, I eat baked potatoes, apples and drink coconut water during the day.

 

[alywest]

Just out of curiosity, are you in a better state now than you were before finding Peat?

 

[theLaw]

When any of these "anti-Peat" threads popup, I always go back and read the OP's previous posts.

Here is one the OP's posts from earlier this year :

Changed my diet slightly.

As my metabolism improved, I found it necessary to eat more. The morning OJ/protein shake wasn't filling me up. I also got a bit tired of supps and cut them all out.

What I do now is:

1. Eat as many fruity and sugary carbs as possible upon waking up. I achieve this by eating an 800g can of stewed fruits (drained), with golden syrup generously poured on top. I then wash it down with a small glass of juice. Usually I hate yoghurt because it gives me headaches like Peat also has experienced, however, if I buy a brand of yoghurt without all the stupid bacteria in it, a little bit is fine. This is a huge meal of sugariness that goes down well, especially when the pears are heated in the microwave.

2. Once this has digested, I have a casein protein drink, with Ceylon cinnamon. I also still eat medjool dates and cheese. Started again with organic raisins, which seem to be fine.

3. Started on a new idea that maybe boiled starch, aka vermicelli, rice noodles or similar, are easy to digest. So far, these seem to be fine in meals at lunch/dinner. Still eat lamb, chicken, steak. Still have glycine in my coffee.

4. I don't have too many liquids anymore, it was driving me nuts.

5. I just eat salty macadamias now instead of putting salt in my juice. Far tastier.

Other notes:

I have learnt that if I feel stressed, Gatorade/Powerade is one of the best things to bring me back to normality.

Read on the **** Portion Control blog that B2 can help with weight loss, but am too nervous to try it.

Haven't gained weight or lost weight.

I consume water only when really thirsty, which is hardly ever. I probably have one glass of water per day.

All kinds of red-flags here (as usual) indicating that this person has not actually taken the time to implement Peat's suggestions (which are not necessarily easy) one by one, but instead wants to fit Peat's philosophy into their diet.

+Heal Digestion (don't forget to get rid of bad bacteria)
+Clean the Liver
+Get Rid of Pufa

I do agree that Peat doesn't make it user-friendly like Paleo, and it's still early days, but I would suggest going back and reading through the threads from VOS and Haidut to try and get an idea of the range of different ways to approach this diet.

Finally, I think that most very-active people who try Peat's suggestions have a seriously-difficult time getting enough calories at first, and sometimes need to force themselves to eat to get back to normal. In this stressed (starving) state........all hell breaks loose, and it can make you feel like sh*t. Making calorically dense foods like cheesecake can go a long way toward making someone feel better. Large amounts of liquids can sometimes fill the stomach too quickly while failing to provide enough calories needed at the time.

Cheers!

 

[Westside PUFAs]

I appreciate Ray's thoughts as an internet health personality

He's not an internet personality. He's a biologist who's done many radio interviews that were put on the net, and 2 of his lectures at schools have also been put online. He didn't ask for that. His articles are free to the public but he's not advertising himself and doesn't sell anything.

but I think his ideas are an incomplete picture, and ultimately they don't lead to any new or helpful knowledge.

Sounds like you're complaining about nothing. He doesn't owe you anything. He's not going to wipe your bum for you. You take what you want from him and do what you want. Saying that serotonin is not the feel good hormone and that there is no such thing as an EFA is certainly helpful knowledge.

but I don't think that Ray's picture is the full picture.

He's made it to 81 so it is the full picture for him.

But writing lonely articles about it won't create change.

What a weird thing to say. He's not obligated to change anything.

Anyway, I've started consuming less sugar and nothing bad happened. I returned to eating normally, enjoying a few scrambled eggs. I no longer drink juice and crappy light milk. Over time this high liquid protocol lowered my cholesterol, and flattened my sex drive. I feel hungry now in a good, heathy way that feels good and stimulates my appetite, and I don't worry about food and iron and vitamin C and all that stuff, it just causes unnecessary concern.

Good for you. That's what you're supposed to do. No need to bash the guy though. You sound like one of those whiny victims and not a fun person to be around.

I don't even do the true "Peat" diet myself but I would never blame him for my own problems like SJW's do. Take responsibility for yourself.

.

 

[Tarmander]

I agree with a few things you said, however I think posts like these make the Freud mistake. Freud gets a lot of crap for mistakes while people skim over the fact that he really developed the idea of the unconscious, which is so rooted in our understanding of our mind that it goes without saying. However there was a time when the idea of an unconscious was unconscionable.

So yes, I cringe a little when I see him recommend 2 Qts of milk and OJ to someone. I wonder if all that liquid is really what they need.

However, I am not going to go pick up some fishoil to down with my acacia gum fiber smoothie which will raise my serotonin even higher then my SSRI so I will be super happy....basically key parts of your understanding of the health world have been shaped by Peat, and you may not even notice that it comes from him.

 

[Xisca]

I mean, there is crystal spectrometry imaging of human cells that demonstrate reality aligning with the current model. Also, the current model is far more sophisticated than the "bags of water" description Ray often alleges. It is a straw man argument. No one says this.

Ling gives as a proof of his theroy that IRM was invented. But I do not know the link...
What current model are you talking about?

 

[milk_lover]

Coke, coffee, low fat milk, rice, and lamb have been my essential diet items for a long time now along with some supplements done in cycles (aspirin, cypro, caffeine, B-vitamins, glycine, DHEA etc., ). I don't drink OJ anymore cause I think my body doesn't want it. Ray Peat doesn't force you to eat certain things or take supplements. He just recommends and you do experimentation for yourself. I eat white bread almost daily although Peat doesn't think it's safe unless it's fermented. I just follow my instinct and eat what feels and tastes good. No need to bash on the man who has helped thousands of people with his fresh insight on diet, health, and longevity.

 

[twilightkid]

"I asked Danny Roddy about this, and he said he doesn't understand Gilbert Ling at all, but still believes Peat is absolutely right. To date, no one on this forum can engage directly with the claims of Ling. Even if turns out Ling is absolutely correct, no one has specified what the consequences of Ling's model are. Ling himself uses the term Hypothesis, which indicates there is further room for discussion."

I would argue most everything in science is open to discussion. Yesterdays truths are often todays falsities. Science is a moving target...

As per Lings hypothesis, I think Prof. Pollack's work supports his hypothesis further. Ling demonstrated that Mitchell's theory could not support the necessary energy production of a cell by many magnitudes.

 

[Xisca]

incomplete picture, and ultimately they don't lead to any new or helpful knowledge.
I suppose I humbly disagree that a "good diet" and a "good environment" can preserve health. I think both can contribute substantially, but I don't think that Ray's picture is the full picture.

Usually, nobody gets the full picture. They always talk about a specific chain of causes and consequences, though health and life is a mix of a real web of causes and consequences, all untangled further than what we can even imagin!

Until now I have not really found much help and I will step back from the high fruit diet, because what is sweet leads me to be hungry all the time, as Garfield say, what does between meals means? I also have a problem with coconut oil and have changed the balance towards olive oil again. I also reduce cheese and go up meat again.

But yes, I think good diet and good environment are the 2 pilars, more than 2 with their sub-divisions. Or else what do you think is the main point? Worry about the good diet yes is a bad point, and be relaxed a good point...

I think you are just fed up about being concerned? And it sucks?

I would keep away from vegetable oils, as there are others, and you can enjoy toasted salted almonds instead!

 

[mayweatherking]

Tldr: he disagrees because he didn't feel well and because no one understands Ling

Did I miss anything? Peace out bro.

 

[Kyle M]

I mean, there is crystal spectrometry imaging of human cells that demonstrate reality aligning with the current model.

I work with a crystallographer and there is no direct crystollographic information, as far as I know, that "disproves" Ling's main thesis.

Also, the current model is far more sophisticated than the "bags of water" description Ray often alleges. It is a straw man argument. No one says this.

This is true, but it's important to realize how scientific paradigms change. As with neo-Darwinism, the establishment doesn't allow their model to be challenged by a competing model, but instead over decades slowly bring in aspect from that competing model. They never go back and admit the original model was wrong, but just keep adding to it. This is because of the inherently conservative aspect of the way science is published and funded.

Even if turns out Ling is absolutely correct, no one has specified what the consequences of Ling's model are.

Yes they have. If, for example, receptor biology is not correct and instead molecules interact in a more general way, then you would be able to explain better and perhaps treat better triple negative breast cancel cells that are still sensitive to estrogen. That's just one example off the top of my head.

Also, several members of this forum can engage with Ling's work. Travis does at least. I do too. I'm a biochemist.

 

[tca300]

@theLaw @Westside PUFAs

 

[RobertJM]

It's amazing how attacked some of you feel when someone dares leave the 'sect', or wants to explore different ways of thinking. Just relax. The reality is that there are a lot of people struggling on this forum. The guy/girl is perfectly ok to talk about his/her doubts and his/her problems. No need to kick him/her in the face when he/she is down, directionless and (probably) confused.

And Westside PUFA criticising somebody for not being 'fun to be around'. LOL. Good one. You know that your life is in the toilet when that guy is saying you are no fun

 

[alywest]

However, I am not going to go pick up some fishoil to down with my acacia gum fiber smoothie which will raise my serotonin even higher then my SSRI so I will be super happy....basically key parts of your understanding of the health world have been shaped by Peat, and you may not even notice that it comes from him.

I agree with you Tarmander, there are some things that I would just not do now that I know better. I won't spend money on fish oil (thank goodness, what a rip off!), won't take SSRIs, always look out for gums and carageenan, won't use artificial sweeteners and know that real sugar is ok, would NEVER take birth control medications of any kind, I'm not scared of dairy anymore, I take my thyroid (t3) several times throughout the day as it has a shorter half-life (which has made a HUGE difference, especially with sleeping), would never cook with canola or vegetable oil as I used to frequently, buy refined coconut oil instead of overpriced virgin, won't juice carrots as I used to occasionally thinking it was super healthy, drink oj again, drink coffee without the guilt, eat as much salt as I like, take calcium carbonate and don't spend any money on it, try to eat collagen or bone broth with muscle meats because I know an imbalance of too much tryptophan is not good, and I don't buy whole grain foods.

I have learned a lot more than this but these are now part of my life no matter what else I decide to take from Ray Peat's work. And I know it's for the better because my health has improved dramatically already.

 

[Kyle M]

It's amazing how attacked some of you feel when someone dares leave the 'sect', or wants to explore different ways of thinking. Just relax.

I can't speak for anyone else, but OP's post was not about their struggles with applying Ray's ideas to health, but saying Ray (and others on this forum) don't understand this or that, and that the mainstream model of the cell has been proven to be correct, that no one has answered this or that question or can engage with Ling in this or that way. All of which is factually incorrect, as I tried to briefly explain above.

It's like if an economist had a theory about the economy, and you applied that theory to investing your life savings, and you lost some of your money, going back and calling out all of the little theoretical details of the theory and saying no one really understands this or that and that the person is a fraud. It might just be that you didn't apply it correctly, or it might be that economic theory is NOT all that useful in financial investments. Economic theory is descriptive of human action, but cannot see future market changes such as inventions or resource discoveries. It can only say things like "given a lower supply of resource X, its price Y will rise if demand is maintained." A lot of Ray's writings are like that, he says "given what we know about this biological system, this treatment will cause this change at the cellular level." Of course there are variables in real-world health that cannot be counted for in this type of treatment. And Ray is actually, more than any other "guru" out there, fairly explicit in saying his ideas aren't meant to be cure alls for everyone. He either writes theoretically, or is on record answering phone call questions from individual people who describe a problem.

My main criticism of Ray is included in OP, which is that he hasn't done much to try and actually effect change in any of the institutions of medicine or biomedical research. Of course his life is his own to live, so I'm going to take what I learned from Ray and try to do that myself, instead of whining about what he could have done better in his "career."