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Calcirol - Liquid Vitamin D3

  1. Just like the other vitamin products we have released, this product does not really need any introduction to anybody familiar with Peat's work. So, unlike other products of ours, there won't be as many references listed in support of this product but I think even the few ones below are enough to give an idea about its properties. I listed some of the more notable ones, that emphasize the fact that cholecalciferol is actually a (seco)steroid (Secosteroid - Wikipedia), and as such it interacts with other known steroids Peat has written about. For example, vitamin D3 synergizes greatly with progesterone, androgens and DHEA. A few studies examines the affinity of vitamin D for the thyroid, androgen, estrogen, progesterone, and glucocorticoid receptors and found that it was as potent as the native ligands. At the glucocorticoid and estrogen receptors, vitamin D acted as an antagonist, while at the androgen receptor it has been shown to act as an agonist [1, 13]. Not surprising, considering that apparently vitamin D has progesterone-like hormonal effects [15], which may also explain its pro-metabolic effects. Both the "active" vitamin D calcitriol (1-25-OH) and the "inactive" precursor (25-OH) were found to have the same affinity for these receptors, so the talk about only calcitriol being the true vitamin D is nonsense (as Peat said as well).

    When combined with androgens like DHT or nandrolone, vitamin D greatly increased their anti-cancer and anabolic effects on muscle and bone while simultaneously protecting from the toxicities of high doses of such steroids [4, 5, 6, 7].
    One of its most mysterious roles identified so far is the interaction with (and possible activation of) the anti-aging gene Klotho, which Peat mentioned quite a few times in his interviews.
    Klotho (biology) - Wikipedia
    Another hugely important role is the synergism of vitamin D with vitamin K in the synthesis of osteocalcin. Elevating the levels of osteocalcin has been shown to completely reverse the aging of muscle tissue, and possibly negate the age-associated loss of muscle mass. In addition, osteocalcin has been shown to reverse insulin resistance, restore proper steroid synthesis to youthful levels, and prevent the metabolic changes that occur in cells with aging and can lead to virtually all chronic conditions including cancer, diabetes, CVD, dementia, autoimmune conditions (MS, Lupus, RA) etc.
    Osteocalcin - Wikipedia
    Last but not least, blood levels of vitamin D are a good surrogate for thyroid function even in the presence of euthyroid biomarkers. Given the widespread prevalence of vitamin D deficiency or insufficiency in the population of most Western countries, I think everybody gets the idea of just how "healthy" people in developed countries currently are. In regards to those widespread deficiencies - a recent study found that the current official guidelines (RDA) for vitamin D supplementation are wrong due to a statistical mistake. As such, almost 9,000 IU (vs. the RDA of 400 IU) daily are needed as a supplement by adults to achieve the optimal blood vitamin D levels. The study also claims the warnings of side effects are unfounded due to the incorrect RDA and calls for medically unsupervised supplementation of 10,000 IU daily for adults and 3,000 IU daily for children older than 1.
    The Big Vitamin D Mistake. - PubMed - NCBI

    The name Calcirol is an old and seemingly forgotten synonym for cholecalciferol (vitamin D3), and it conveys well IMO the main properties of this chemical - i.e its role in calcium metabolism. The product can be ordered from the link below:

    Note: This product contains raw material(s) meant for external use only, in cosmetic or other formulations designed for such external use.

    Calcirol contains the secosteroid cholecalciferol, also known as vitamin D3. Aside from its well-known role in calcium metabolism, this secosteroid has very important role in immune function, muscle health, stress adaptation (cortisol), anti-aging, sex steroid modulation, cardiovascular function, cognitive function, etc.

    Drops per container: about 240
    Each drop contains the following ingredients:

    Vitamin D3: 1,000 IU

    Other ingredients: add product to shopping cart to see info

    1. Vitamin D, the anabolic switch?
    2. Plausible ergogenic effects of vitamin D on athletic performance and recovery
    3. Vitamin K And D Reverse Muscle Aging, May Act Like Sports Doping Agents
    4. Vitamin D Inhibits The Deactivation Of Androgens
    5. Androgens (DHT, T) Treat Prostate Cancer, Especially When Combined With Vitamin D
    6. Endocrine Press | Endocrine Society
    7. Vitamin D improves safety profile of nandrolone - Organext Research B.V.
    8. http://www.boneandjoint.org.uk/content/jbjsbr/84-B/4/497.full.pdf
    9. Vitamin D Reduces Cortisol In Humans By 40%
    10. Vitamin D "as Good As Drugs" In Lowering Blood Pressure
    11. Sunlight And Aspirin Can Treat Multiple Sclerosis (MS)
    12. Vitamin D discovery outpaces FDA decision making. - PubMed - NCBI
    "...During our molecular modeling of the actions of ARBs upon the nuclear receptors,(32) and our subsequent presentation to the FDA,(33) we were struck by the symmetry with which endogenous ligands exhibited very similar affinities across several members of the type 1 nuclear receptor family. For example, 1,25-D docked into the VDR with a (nanomolar) Kd of 8.48, but also exhibited a Kd of 8.12 into the glucocorticoid receptor (GR), 8.41 into the thyroid-alpha-1 receptor (ThRa) and 8.05 into the androgen receptor (AR) (all Kd values were computed using XSCORE(69,70)). Similar high affinities were found with 25-D, which yielded Kd values of 8.36, 8.17, 8.32 and 8.07, respectively. It would seem that activation of this subset of receptors is achieved by a delicate balance between the concentrations of a number of endogenous hormones."
    13. Dysregulation of the vitamin D nuclear receptor may contribute to the higher prevalence of some autoimmune diseases in women. - PubMed - NCBI
    14. Investigating Transdermal Delivery of Vitamin D3
    "...Transdermal delivery of therapeutic amounts of vitamin D3 is proposed to overcome its variable oral bioavailability, especially for people who suffer from fat malabsorption. The main challenge for this delivery route is to overcome the barrier properties of skin, especially for very lipophilic compounds such as vitamin D3. In this study, the effect of different penetration enhancers, such as oleic acid, dodecylamine, ethanol, oleic acid in propylene glycol, isopropyl myristate, octyldodecanol, and oleyl alcohol in propylene glycol were evaluated in vitro for their effectiveness in delivering vitamin D3 through polyamide filter, polydimethylsiloxane membrane, and porcine skin. A diffusion cell was used to study the transdermal permeability of vitamin D3. Ointment formulations of vitamin D3 were prepared containing the most widely used penetration enhancers, oleic acid, and dodecylamine. The ointment containing oleic acid as chemical penetration enhancer did not improve delivery compared to control. On the other hand, the formulation containing dodecylamine as a penetration enhancer did improve the transdermal delivery of vitamin D3. However, statistical significance and an amount high enough for nutritional supplementation purposes were reached only when the skin was pretreated with 50% ethanol. In these conditions, the ointment delivered an amount of 760-ng vitamin D3 per cm2 of skin. The research shows promise that transdermal delivery could be an effective administration route for vitamin D3 when ethanol and dodecylamine are used as penetration enhancers."

    "...Based on the recommended daily dose of vitamin D3 (400 IU or 10 μg) and the results of this study, delivery of the recommended daily dose could potentially be achieved by covering a surface of skin of 3.6 ×3.6 cm with vitamin D3 ointment containing both ethanol and dodecylamine. Although these results have only been demonstrated for porcine skin, it is possible that similar results will be obtained in vivo in humans since porcine skin is known to be the best alternative to human skin for in vitro testing of transdermal delivery. This research suggests that transdermal delivery could be an effective way for humans to receive the recommended daily dose of vitamin D3. Transdermal delivery of vitamin D3 could be especially helpful for people who suffer from fat malabsorption."
    15. Vitamin D is hormone with progesterone-like activity.
    16. Vitamin D in Oxidative Stress and Diseases | IntechOpen
    17. https://www.researchgate.net/public...ll_signalling_stability_in_health_and_disease
  2. @haidut How do you take this? (Have you been taking this?) Any good things to report?
  3. before bed or in the morning ?
  4. It's difficult to find a vitamin D supplement that isn't carried in oil, so I like this. I'm thinking that I will be adding some of this product to my homemade hair protection formula that I spray on my scalp throughout the day. Topical vitamin D without the oily mess; male pattern baldness folks should be happy about this. Just in time for winter too.
  5. @haidut

    1. What are the benefits of this product being ethanol based, rather than oil based like most of the other D3 products on the market?

    2. How does the ethanol (if at all) affect topically application of the vitamin?

    3. Perhaps linked to 1. How would you expect someone that gets severe intestinal irritation from mct based fat soluble vitamins react to your ethanol based D3. Do you think SFA esters have a similar irritating potential as MCT oil?

  6. When using d3 topically, it seems best to act like 100% gets absorbed. I've heard various opinions on this, though. Thoughts?
  7. I am excited to use this product. I have never felt anything from any D3 product in any dosage that I have tried over many years.

    I plan to use for a while, then get a blood test.
  8. I take 5 drops topically together with any steroid I may use. Given that it uses the SFA esters + ethanol solvent I use it with a steroid dissolved in the same. I think it goes really well with any of the steroid product we have but the most notable effects I see in terms of synergy is with androsterone - i.e. when using Calcirol I seem to get the same effects from androsterone with like 1/2 to 1/3 of the normal dose I need to get those effects. As one of the studies in the references section says, it really potentiates the effects of other steroids and (one of) the proposed effects is increased receptor sensitization.
  9. I think most vitamin D supplements are best taken in the morning as insomnia is a known side effect of doses higher than 2,000 IU.
  10. If you use any topical steroids, I suggest trying it with them. It seems to really potentiate the effects when both are taken topically.
  11. I am hoping it will have better topical absorption then the oil-based products but we won't know until people use it and do blood tests. As Peat said, many people who have even a slight overweight condition have trouble raising blood vitamin D levels with oral supplements. So, if the topical absorption of this is way over 30% as studies seem to suggest, then it could be a viable way to raise blood vitamin D levels for many people who struggle with high oral doses vitamin D due to side effects or toxicity symptoms.
    As far as irritation, I think topically this should cause none.
  12. Not sure what exactly is your question. Can you clarify please?
  13. Excellent, please do. That is one of the main goals of releasing this - i.e hopefully address the poor effectiveness of raising vitamin D levels when using high oral doses of vitamin D. Peat said most people struggle to raise their levels due to extra fat tissue and elevated estrogen.
  14. Great I look forward to trying this. I have been able to raise my Vit D levels rapidly almost to 90 with (and I have little respect for this man) Dr. Mercola's Vit D sublingual spray. However, I have never noticed any subjective benefit.
    @haidut any idea why this might be so?
  15. Does one also need to increase Magnesium intake when taking D, and if so is there an optimal ratio?
  16. I think the most pronounced effects are seen by people who were deficient to start with. If your normal levels were around 40-50 they are probably already optimal so raising to 90 may not add much. Also, without knowing your calcitriol, PTH, phosphorus and prolactin in addition to your 25-OH vitamin D it is hard to say what your true systemic vitamin D signalling is.
  17. Magnesium certainly synergizes with vitamin D. I don't know of an optimal ratio but shooting for at least 200mg magnesium daily is wise for anybody, regardless of vitamin D supplementation.
  18. I’m sure you’ve answered this before, but until you come out with Magnesium product; do you recommend Magnesium Glycinate?
  19. @haidut Are you sure the link is correct? Cant seem to find the product.
  20. Rayzord mentioned in an interview that calcium and vit D are correlated with leanness. I wonder if fat loss starts to occur only once tissues are saturated with vit D. Maybe gurus give up too soon and feel well all of the sudden for misterious reasons while fasting (not an attack to gbolduev); or they take too much at a time and feel the temporary bad effects of excess calcium.

    Meet Klotho.

    And congratulations.
  21. Has anyone seen this?

    The Big Vitamin D Mistake. - PubMed - NCBI

    The Big Vitamin D Mistake.
    Papadimitriou DT1,2.
    Author information

    Since 2006, type 1 diabetes in Finland has plateaued and then decreased after the authorities' decision to fortify dietary milk products with cholecalciferol. The role of vitamin D in innate and adaptive immunity is critical. A statistical error in the estimation of the recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for vitamin D was recently discovered; in a correct analysis of the data used by the Institute of Medicine, it was found that 8895 IU/d was needed for 97.5% of individuals to achieve values ≥50 nmol/L. Another study confirmed that 6201 IU/d was needed to achieve 75 nmol/L and 9122 IU/d was needed to reach 100 nmol/L. The largest meta-analysis ever conducted of studies published between 1966 and 2013 showed that 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels <75 nmol/L may be too low for safety and associated with higher all-cause mortality, demolishing the previously presumed U-shape curve of mortality associated with vitamin D levels. Since all-disease mortality is reduced to 1.0 with serum vitamin D levels ≥100 nmol/L, we call public health authorities to consider designating as the RDA at least three-fourths of the levels proposed by the Endocrine Society Expert Committee as safe upper tolerable daily intake doses. This could lead to a recommendation of 1000 IU for children <1 year on enriched formula and 1500 IU for breastfed children older than 6 months, 3000 IU for children >1 year of age, and around 8000 IU for young adults and thereafter. Actions are urgently needed to protect the global population from vitamin D deficiency.
  22. Carbonate, bicarbonate, taurate, glycinate, gluconate are all good salts to try.
  23. It is the very first one, top left corner on my screen, just before EstroBan.
  24. Yes, thanks for posting. I was reading it about 2 weeks ago. If you read through the study, there is a statement in the concluding section where it says that doses of up 10,000 IU in adults and 3,000 IU for children are VERY safe and can be done without ANY medical supervision. I think vitamin D has been very seriously underestimated and in some cases purposefully denigrated. Pharma has quite a few bone-anabolic agents in trials that are derivatives of vitamin D. They claim those are safer because they were developed to not have risk of hypercalcemia, but the animal studies I have seen all show terrible side effects like heart failure and breast cancer that are notably absent in the plain vitamin D control groups.
  25. Interesting product but I think I'll stick to using Estroban, as that also has vitamins A and K, which are needed to protect against side effects of vitamin D. Do you think it's beneficial to use vitamin D on its own?
  26. The sooner we start thinking of "vitamin" D as a steroid the faster the public perception will change. Vitamin D binds to and modulates all major hormone receptors including thyroid, estrogen, glucocorticoid, androgen and mineralocorticoid ones. Thus a deficiency in this secosteroid by definition induces a state of systemic abnormal steroid signalling.
  27. I think it may help for people who think they need higher doses, and also for people who want to stack it with the steroids like pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA, thyroid, and the androgens.
  28. Ray Peat said he uses about 20,000 IU/day
  29. That was topically.
  30. Cool, thanks for clarifying that.
  31. Yes he said you need about 10x more with topical use.
  32. So you really only want 200oIU orally or 20000 topically? He has also said that 10000 IU would be the equivalent of spending time in the sun and isn't harmful
  33. I tried on another browser and it worked then. Still does not work on Torch though. Hmmmmmm...
  34. upload_2017-12-11_14-14-18.png

    it is showing up in a funky way on my Internet Explorer 11 but the blue link works to take you to the product
  35. Can you please post a screenshot?
  36. It was an HTML typo, it should be fixed now.
  37. upload_2017-12-11_21-34-13.png
    This is Torch
  38. A pilot study assessing the effect of prolonged administration of high daily doses of vitamin D on the clinical course of vitiligo and psoriasis

    "High-dose vitamin D3 supplementation to patients with autoimmune disorders is conceivably advantageous over 1,25(OH)2D3 treatment concerning lower calcemic effects and more efficient control of autoimmunity. Administration of 1,25(OH)2D3 or 1,25(OH)2D3 analogs overpasses critical regulatory mechanisms related to the calciotropic effects of vitamin D by directly stimulating intestinal VDR and calcium absorption. In contrast, administration of vitamin D3 increases circulating concentrations of 25(OH)D3, which then faces different renal and extra-renal control mechanisms for expression and activity of the enzyme 1 α-hydroxylase.41 Renal 1 α-hydroxylase undergoes feedback downregulation (associated with 24-hydroxylase upregulation) by 1,25(OH)2D3 and 1,25(OH)2D3 production is also under strict control of other calcium- and phosphate-regulating hormones (PTH and FGF23).51 Conversely, the availability of 25(OH)D3 to immune cells (the production of which is not tightly controlled by the liver)37 may be the primary determinant of the amount of 1,25(OH)2D3 produced for intracrine and paracrine effects at sites of inflammation,50 where the local expression of cytokines may instead facilitate the conversion of 25(OH)D3 by inducing the expression of 1 α-hydroxylase.51,52

    Hypervitaminosis D is associated with upregulation of intestinal VDR and increased absorption of dietary calcium.53 A low calcium diet protects against vitamin D toxicity, not only by reducing the availability of calcium for gastrointestinal absorption, but also by facilitating vitamin D inactivation at sites related to calcium metabolism.37 Reduced intestinal calcium by dietary restriction of milk, dairy products and calcium-enriched foods (like oat, rice or soya “milk”) has contributed to minimize the calciotropic effects of high daily doses of vitamin D3 in the current study. Increased gastrointestinal absorption of calcium is partly responsible for the hypercalcemia in vitamin D intoxication and a low dietary calcium intake gradually reduces serum calcium in such patients.54 Preliminary data (not shown) obtained from patients treated with progressively higher doses of vitamin D3 up to 35,000 IU daily showed that the adoption of such easily understandable dietary recommendations reduced urinary calcium from borderline elevated levels (around 400 mg or 10 mmol per day, with serum calcium sustained at the upper normal range) to values within the normal range without changing vitamin D daily dose. Further restriction of dietary calcium (by also avoiding foods prepared with milk, such as mashed potatoes, bread, cakes and cookies) dropped urinary calcium to levels below the lower limit of the normal range adopted by the local laboratory (100 mg or 2.5 mmol per day) while serum calcium remained around the lower limit (8.6 mg/dL or 2.15 mmol/L).

    Taken together, those data suggest that partial dietary calcium restriction efficiently prevents hypercalcemia and hypercalciuria by controlling the gastrointestinal availability of calcium under the calciotropic effect of the treatment paradigm employed in patients with psoriasis and vitiligo in this study."

    "serum concentration of PTH may be the best biological indicator for the individual setting of the optimal therapeutic dose of vitamin D3 for the treatment of autoimmune disorders"

    "A period of at least 2 mo should be allowed between the two serum PTH measurements, considering that 25(OH)D3 has a half-life of 15 d.48 Using the PTH level as an ancillary index of therapeutic response requires a diet only partially restricted in calcium (like the one described in this study) since excessive restriction of calcium intake would maintain increased bone resorption to preserve normocalcemia, thereby limiting or preventing vitamin D3-induced PTH drop."

    The guru also advocates maintaining PTH value close to the lowest of the normal range.

    "all patients excluded milk and dairy products (as well as calcium-fortified foods like soy, oat or rice milk) from their diet and ingested at least 2.5 L of fluid per day to prevent, respectively, excessive absorption of intestinal calcium and concentrated urinary calcium. Calcium supplementation was not allowed. The onset of symptoms suggestive of hypercalcemia (increased thirst, constipation, nausea, vomiting) would require performing extra laboratory tests."​

    Have you ever searched for ""vit d" isotretinoin"?
  39. It probably cached the previous version of the page. Try doing a reload with CTRL+R.
  40. Ye, that worked
  41. No, but I know vitamin A protects from the hypercalcemia of very high doses vitamin D.
  42. You mentioned on another thread something about the finasteride syndrome possibly being related to vit D deficiency, and gbolduev related accutane syndrome to the consequences of finasteride. You're probably being bombarded with messages right now, but when you have some time, search for vit D during isotretinoin treatment and its effects.

    Regarding dairy and vit D, even for sun exposure, which is better regulated than supplements, I don't think babies of any species are exposed as much as adults are. It's just something to be aware when it comes to higher doses of supplemental vit D.
  43. My doctor discovered I was low in vitamin d and gave me low dose ergocalciferol. I, listening to the experts decided to go for 5,000mg cholecalciferol and lost 1 and a half stone (about 21 pounds) in a matter of weeks. Felt amazing. Developed huge bruised the lengths of my shins. Worse on the right than the left and seeming to come from behind the shins. When I tested after 2 and a hald months (thereabouts), I was so high that the nhs phoned me personally, rather than sending back test results by post.
  44. Anything you know of that prevents the bruising and bone pain??
  45. I am hoping that the amount was 5000 IU rather than 5000 mg of D3 (cholecalciferol) daily. One international unit (IU) is 25 nanograms of D3. So 5000 milligrams would be 200 MILLION units (IU) of D3, which is a dangerous amount even as a single dose.

    5000 IU supplementation daily for an adult is in different views a moderate to high amount. If things went from very low to very high in 2 plus months, it could be that the absorption was good, or the product had extra quantity. Sunlight and food sources of vitamin D also factor in.
    Vitamin D Council | How do I get the vitamin D my body needs?
  46. Is it OK to take it topically with the DMSO formula of Kuinone (or Pansterone/11-k DHT)???
  47. http://www.easy-immune-health.com/support-files/vitamin_d_toxicity_vitamin_k_masterjohn.pdf

    "I propose that vitamin D exerts its toxic actions primarily by inducing a deficiency of vitamin K. According to this model, vitamin D upregulates the expression of certain proteins that must be activated by the vitamin K-dependent process of carboxylation; when the level of these proteins exceeds that which the pool of available vitamin K has the capacity to carboxylate, this pool becomes depleted."

    "while vitamin A exerts a strong protective effect against vitamin D toxicity, its protection is not complete and vitamin D toxicity is not an exact mirror of vitamin A deficiency."

    Comparison between the protective effects of vitamin K and vitamin A on the modulation of hypervitaminosis D3 short-term toxicity in adult albino rats

    "Animals fed toxic doses of vitamin D bear a striking resemblance to animals deficient in vitamin K or the vitamin K-dependent proteins"

    "[..]Taken together, these observations suggest that vitamin D and Warfarin exhibit similar toxicity profiles because they both induce a deficiency of vitamin K, even though the mechanism by which they contribute to this deficiency is different: while Warfarin directly inhibits the recycling of vitamin K, vitamin D increases the demand for vitamin K beyond that which can be fulfilled."

    "A final challenge to this model is presented by the synergistic effect of vitamins A and D on osteocalcin expression. In human osteoblast cell culture, incubation with either all-trans-retinoic acid, a metabolite of vitamin A, or calcitriol, a metabolite of vitamin D, increases osteocalcin expression only slightly. When the cells are incubated with the two vitamin metabolites simultaneously, however, osteocalcin expression is increased dramatically [28]. This suggests that vitamin A increases rather than decreases the demand for vitamin K in osteoblasts; one could argue that the proposed model predicts from this that vitamin A would aggravate vitamin D toxicity, despite the clear observation that vitamin A ameliorates vitamin D toxicity. Nevertheless, vitamin A downregulates the expression of MGP in rat [25] and human [29] cells. Since MGP is expressed broadly whereas osteocalcin is expressed only in osteoblasts, vitamin A is likely to exert a substantial net vitamin K-sparing effect, and would thus be predicted by the proposed model to ameliorate vitamin D toxicity, which is observed."​

    I've read from a few gurus that there's an increased need for B-vitamins during vit D repletion. Vit C insufficiency can be involved as well, hence the characteristic lesions of scurvy; it's involved in collagen metabolism and mineralization, I believe it's also required to prevent excess calcium.
  48. Yet another reason to supp ascorbic acid. Peat fans are too scared though.
  49. DMSO and the SFA ester do not mix well. So, they can be applied at the same time but not on the same spot.
  50. I have my doubts about it. Industrial contaminants that Ray mentioned aside, it's difficult to get it right but easy to mess up trace minerals, especially if you don't have a safe margin for wasting. Most people that supplement it take more than they need. And it's not about food versus supplement because you can have the same effect from foods high in it. But it's just my opinion.
  51. I did not get the same effect from food. Vit C is one of the most safest supplements out there. People are dosing themselves with fat solubles left and right, yet won't take C due to a couple studies saying it messed with ceruloplasmin, ignoring the hundreds more proving it's benefits. You can get C that is pretty pure. If we were to go after the purity of C you'd have to look at the purity of everything you ingest including those cans of coke, spices, chocolate, etc. Chocolate is one you can't be sure you aren't getting lead.
  52. Like I mentioned, it has nothing to do with purity. I agree with you on fat-solubles, but with vit C it's easy to get the desired amount from food, unlike vit D for example.
  53. Vitamin D is better regulated via the sun. But as far as getting plenty of C from food, I prefer not to chug orange juice and veggies so that is why I feel supps are necessary.
  54. Only bruising but no pain. Arnica?
  55. Oh yep, IU's, not mg.
  56. Thanks, good info to remember. I take k with d now, though would have been high in k due to diet at the time. The bruising was weird and happened within days though.
  57. No need to chug, you can eat a bit of acerola, guava, bell pepper, for example and they will provide you an excess if you're not careful.
    Don't you think that there was already an adaptation to conserve vit C? Otherwise everyone would be severely deficient. Glutathione recycles it, so, up to a certain amount, vit C can spare it.
    Why people that produce or sell fresh acerolas don't eat more of them to reach at least 3g? There's no excuse because they're practically devoid of other known nutrients in relation to vit C.
  58. Why do you say 'if you're not careful', why would you need to be careful? I can take 8 grams ascorbic acid at once without diarrhea. I don't see why caution is warranted. Other than making sure you are getting enough minerals. Maybe people around here wouldn't need so many hormones if they weren't so cautious with it. (heart disease number one killer)
  59. Careful to avoid the negative effects. Diarrhea is not a decent parameter. It's not good to mess up with trace minerals because they're more difficult to obtain and they come with the whole package that you can't get rid of as easily as the full package of water-soluble vitamins if you need specific ones.
    This might interest you:
    How humans make up for an 'inborn' vitamin C deficiency
  60. I thought I covered the fact that the dose to get from food to prevent scurvy is far below the dose to be healthy? I don't just want to prevent scurvy. If you knew the place I was in before I started ascorbic acid therapy then you would understand why I'm such a proponent. Also sometimes the chelation of minerals is a good thing in this toxic world. I had pretty bad lead exposure in the last year. Studies show C is helpful for lead exposure. I'm glad I didn't believe any of the naysayers on this forum. When vitamin C is saturated through the whole body is when it works best.

    Here is quote from someone who used to post here, but obviously got tired of the dogma:
    Vitamin C Therapy
  61. Great info Janelle...thank you!
  62. It has nothing to do with its therapeutic value. The point is: there are various ways of recycling vit C and there's sensationalism in claiming the we need as much as monkeys do to sustain, not recover, health. Also there are negative consequences in exceeding our needs and, assuming that we're talking about what's best for the average healthy guru, what's the point in doing so?
    If you don't believe me, read supercentenarians' reports. They seem to eat some vit C of course, but not in equine doses. No offense, milk_lover.
    But again, this has nothing to do with its therapeutic value in higher doses. I believe in your experience!

    Nathan couldn't (?) donate blood, which is the easiest and most effective route for iron depletion, otherwise he would've chosen it first instead of vit C and other means, for example.
  63. I'm still wondering what negative effects would make me want to stop?
    And considering Nathan's article on the benefits of ascorbate you think he wouldn't have used it?
    I wouldn't want to be a supercentenarian. Linus Pauling lived quite a long time. Maybe he'd have lived longer if he didn't just do C. There's obviously more to health than C and maybe someone who wasn't eating crap diets for yrs and yrs and were raised on whole foods, maybe they wouldn't need near the amount of C us sick folks need. I'm not denying that.
  64. :carrot2
  65. Have you written about this elsewhere? I'd be interested in reading about your experience if you provide a link.
  66. I have written about my improvement here Janelle's Log

    I didn't give enough credit to vit C in that post, but I think it was one of the major reasons I was able to get my life back. Cyproheptadine played a strong role as well. But it's a drug and has no disease reversal properties, thus I still have some issues if I don't take it. And I never expected vit C to cure me of everything I just wanted some energy back. I don't use caffeine at all still. I feel like vit C is a good substitute for caffeine. I should make another post there, I also don't have an annoying symptom of brain vibration which I felt was a symptom of high inflammation.
  67. Magnesium Malate any good?
  68. Im with you on the whole VitC thing. I supp but would rather get it from food sources.

    Suffered bad hay fever for twenty years until i tried megadosing vit c. Once i load up to saturation (serious diohreah) then i just take a maintenance dose rest of summer. It feels.great to know i now totally 'own' that horrible bastard. So many summers tainted by that ****er.
  69. During hayfever season is this maintenance dose of vit c from food?
  70. No, tablets. 1000mg. Though im told that body can only absorb 500mg per 2 hours. But i got a good deal and bought twp huge jars from Holland & Barrett here in UK, so just chugg them down. Maintenance is 1 or two a day.
  71. Good stuff! Yes it can work well as an antihistamine at saturation.
  72. So at least 30% is absorbed topically?
  73. ....or your lack of thinking
  74. :joyful: three principles, won't solve all your physical problems, but will get you through life.

  75. Dogma?
    Here I thought this was a thread about vit.D ;)
  76. We took our vit C talk elsewhere. Sorry those comments should have been moved.
  77. Vitamin D and MS: Coimbra
    "All patients should have periodic (at least annually) dexa scans. All those who remain sedentary will slowly lose bone mass. If they maintain a daily aerobic exercise (like 30-min brisk walking) they will steadily gain bone density.
    Those high doses of vitamin D stimulate both osteoblastic and osteoclastic activities simultaneously as demonstrated by measuring P1NP and CTX respectively.
    Aerobic exercise (initiated after the second medical appointment) will induce production of calcitonin and efficiently inhibit osteoclastic activity. Those disabled patients (due to neurologic disabilities or joint damage like in rheumatoid arthritis) who are therefore not capable of doing aerobic exercise should receive biphosphonates. We have used alendronate 70 mg per week. Vitamin K2 is useless under the doses of vitamin D we have employed. Aerobic exercise should start from the second medical appointment (when most fatigue is already gone). Disabling fatigue and intolerance to environmental heat affects around 80% of MS and seem to be reliable clinical index of disease activity. We always record the percentual improvement of fatigue and intolerance to heat. Patients usually start noticing reduction of fatigue around 1 month of treatment"
  78. I have been applying 1 to 3 drops to my temples/forehead daily in the morning for about a week.

    Results are no daytime sleepiness at all. No crashes after food. No fading out in the afternoon at office.

    This is a major improvement and something that has never happened with my previous oral vitamin D supplementation attempts.

    So, big thank you to haidut!!
  79. Not bad, if it does not irritate the stomach as malate salts tend to do.
  80. So, what does that mean? Useless without vitamin D or useless below the doses of vitamin D used.
  81. Excellent, thanks for the feedback!
  82. Useless within the range that they employ. I suspect that only mk-7 was used (not sure!), and perhaps it would change the whole story if mk-4 was used instead. It's up to the patient to use it or not.
    He says that high doses of vit D have a marked action on calcium deposition but also removal from bones to the point of risking net loss. In practice he found that there are two ways to counteract the loss: brief (30 min) daily exercise, according to him, calcitonin is involved; or the classic bisphosphonates.

    Regarding calcium restriction, he comments that it can vary. Some people have to adhere when doses are lower than 10000IU whereas some can handle doses up to 20000IU without needing to restrict. I believe everyone above 20000IU is advised to avoid calcium-rich foods. He claims that doses of at least 7000IU are needed to replete deficiencies in his experience.
  83. What is the proposed mechanism for vitamin D removing calcium from bones?? AFAIK, vitamin D is one of the few agents known to increase osteocalcin synthesis, which lowers bone resoprtion/turnover and increases osteoblast formation. So, it should have bone building effects regardless of the dose, especially when combined with vitamin K (which also raises osteocalcin).
  84. Zeus, I'm not sure if he ever explained in detail why exactly, if I come across I'll let you know. But from his brief mentions, I think it's because the vit D resistance that some people experience is not generalized, the doses needed in enough amounts for a therapeutic effect can surpass those that are related to calcium regulation, so the effect on calcium deposition from those doses is so strong that the person is at risk of constantly responding to the lowered calcium with its removal from bones.
  85. Thanks, if you do find his explanation please send. I don't know of a mechanism by which vitamin D will increase calcium deposition so much that it would lead to leeching from the bones to deposit...again in the bones.
  86. No, I mean, if anything, to keep blood levels in range and stable.
    As a related example, he often mentions the risk of excessive PTH suppression to undetectable levels followed by hypercalcemia and kidney damage.
  87. This has probably been asked before, but is there an upper limit to SFA esters?
  88. You mean upper limit of safety from administration? Studies with oral administration in humans show no toxicity until about 15g dose, which means an entire bottle of say Kuinone would have to be swallowed in one sitting. Hopefully, this is not something done by people as even the vitamin K at such dose would probably cause more issues.
  89. How are you going with this now?
  90. I moved application to wrists because the ethanol was trying out temple area and eyelids but noticed fading out returned so went back to forehead and careful to keep application a bit higher up and benefit returned.
  91. I put vitamin D on my wrists for months and noticed no change in blood levels. In an email discussion I had with Peat he mentioned that the wrists was not a good place to put vitamin D, that it was too small of an area, and suggested legs.
  92. but his was not ethanol based
  93. True, maybe that is a factor, but he didn't mention any differences in oil, or ethanol to me, simply "vitamin D" I am simply relaying what he said.

    "I think a large surface is needed, tops of feet, calves, and arms, for example, for vitamin D. Vitamin A needs less area."
  94. I think shoulders and neck are also good areas. Temples are also great, as @GAF found out by himself. The temple area probably benefits the brain more than anything else but still it is a good place to try.
  95. Temples are a smaller surface area than say, forearms, no?
  96. Depends how big your head is ;)
  97. I usually think about how a supplement might get rubbed off. Unless I am topless I would think shoulders would get rubbed into clothing straight away. I usually put vitamins on my feet, rubbing them together, then wrapping them in plastic wrap under my socks. I have no idea if this saves any vitamins or not but it makes sense to me.
  98. Our supplements usually dry off within 30sec to a minute, so if you can weight that long it should not be an issue applying to the shoulders.