Caffeine May Be More Evil Than You Think!

[BingDing]

@Kasper, I've always wondered the same thing; Peat sounds like an elderly person with the shakes or Parkinson's, or something. I don't think I've seen a video of him, but his voice has a kind of timid feeling to it. And I always thought that someone with such good cognitive function would converse faster, and say "um" a lot less lol.

I give him the benefit of the doubt, speaking extemporaneously without making any mistakes is hard. And he doesn't make many mistakes, or you vampires would call him on it.

Charlie, WTF with the Santa stuff?? Bring back the old system with reputation points.

 

[aquaman]

Someone on this forum pointed out that one's response to caffeine is a good indicator of their hormone status. I find that to be true for me. If I drink coffee when my glcogen stores are low it makes me a crazy, shaky, angry maniac. This society is encouraged to undereat and eat degraded food and so I hear a lot of people saying they can't tolerate coffe. I think it is because they are unwell and/or they don't consider their blood sugar when they consume it.

I think this is an important point.

Caffeine/Coffee will not have the same universal effect on everyone.

Work out for yourself how much you can take, and work out ways to increase that amount *if you wish*.

It's one of the "facts" of Ray Peat that get bandied about here too strongly that coffee is great for everyone and should be an essential part of the RP diet (or "diet").

I thikn in general people consume 5x more liquids than they probably should.

We should also remember there are very few success stories from this site. There ARE success stories, but few.

And yet no one wants to control the amount of fluid they drink, or measure temps and pulses. Because it's deemed unnecessary. Everyone should be forced to do food, temp and pulse logs on this site and post them :)

People just want to drink milk, orange juice and coffee, and take thyroid and Progest-e and get magically better. It isn't going to happen!

 

[haidut]

Someone on this forum pointed out that one's response to caffeine is a good indicator of their hormone status. I find that to be true for me. If I drink coffee when my glcogen stores are low it makes me a crazy, shaky, angry maniac. This society is encouraged to undereat and eat degraded food and so I hear a lot of people saying they can't tolerate coffe. I think it is because they are unwell and/or they don't consider their blood sugar when they consume it.

I think this is an important point.

Caffeine/Coffee will not have the same universal effect on everyone.

Work out for yourself how much you can take, and work out ways to increase that amount *if you wish*.

It's one of the "facts" of Ray Peat that get bandied about here too strongly that coffee is great for everyone and should be an essential part of the RP diet (or "diet").

I thikn in general people consume 5x more liquids than they probably should.

We should also remember there are very few success stories from this site. There ARE success stories, but few.

And yet no one wants to control the amount of fluid they drink, or measure temps and pulses. Because it's deemed unnecessary. Everyone should be forced to do food, temp and pulse logs on this site and post them :)

People just want to drink milk, orange juice and coffee, and take thyroid and Progest-e and get magically better. It isn't going to happen!

I agree with the liquid point, temperature and pulse logs. Many people would benefit from collecting some longitudinal data on their metabolic performance
However, the liquid part of tricky. If you go by thirst only, you risk of getting dehydrated and having albumin and blood urea nitrogen levels (BUN) go out of "range" as per standard blood tests. That will certainly make your doctor freak out (if she/he even cares to look). Such_Saturation had that happen to him I think and I know of several other people on the forum who have had the same issue. This resolved by simply drinking more water. The opposite end is also not desirable - too much liquid certainly depresses metabolism and raises acutely prolactin, estrogen and growth hormone, which probably unleashes a cascade of all kinds of other unpleasant effects.
So, I don't think we have a good, objective measure of what is good amount of liquid to consume. Maybe there are studies that say for every ounce of protein you need X amount of fluid, but I personally am not aware of any. Fat and sugar will both generate water when metabolized but protein needs fluid to be properly disposed off. If someone knows of a good guideline please share.

 

[Sheila]

From Weight Gain KMUD Herb Doctors 2013 transcription
viewtopic.php?f=73&t=5434

Int: Is there a way for people to assess their metabolic way given that is driving how well they lose or gain weight?

RP: One way is to look at everything at a food analysis chart and measure the amount of calories you are eating every day.

Another way is to calculate or take note of the fluid you drink, the total fluid intake a day and then measure the total volume of urine output in the same period of time and the difference is what is evaporated and in the average level of activity and the average relative humidity, a person will evaporate a liter per thousand of calories burned so if you only have a missing liter of fluid a day, you know you are only burning 1000 calories.

Int: So if someone gets half a gallon of fluid a day and they only pee out a couple cups you know their system has very low or no high thyroid?

RP: So a pint out of 2 liters that’s a 1500 calorie burning so that’s not very much either.

 

[tara]

From Weight Gain KMUD Herb Doctors 2013 transcription
viewtopic.php?f=73&t=5434

Int: Is there a way for people to assess their metabolic way given that is driving how well they lose or gain weight?

RP: One way is to look at everything at a food analysis chart and measure the amount of calories you are eating every day.

Another way is to calculate or take note of the fluid you drink, the total fluid intake a day and then measure the total volume of urine output in the same period of time and the difference is what is evaporated and in the average level of activity and the average relative humidity, a person will evaporate a liter per thousand of calories burned so if you only have a missing liter of fluid a day, you know you are only burning 1000 calories.

Int: So if someone gets half a gallon of fluid a day and they only pee out a couple cups you know their system has very low or no high thyroid?

RP: So a pint out of 2 liters that’s a 1500 calorie burning so that’s not very much either.

Am I reading this right? So eg:
A normal adult woman maintaining on 2500 cals would need to drink at least 2.5 litres/day to have left over for pee at all, and we need to pee to flush out some waste, so probably need ~3l+.
Or a young man maturing nicely on 3500 cals would need well over 4l fluid.
How much more depending on temperature, humidity, diet, exercise, etc. For hypothyroid people producing less energy, that is sometimes too much. Is that how you read it?

This makes it easier for me to understand how some people can drink a gallon of milk + a litre of OJ.
I often drink 2.5-3l fluid in a day, sometimes more. Less than 2l causes me problems, and too much can cause problems too. I don't sweat much, and where i live is not particularly warm most of the time.

So, I don't think we have a good, objective measure of what is good amount of liquid to consume. Maybe there are studies that say for every ounce of protein you need X amount of fluid, but I personally am not aware of any. Fat and sugar will both generate water when metabolized but protein needs fluid to be properly disposed off. If someone knows of a good guideline please share.

As I understand it, the RBTI approach is to drink a prescribed amount of water (or in some cases juice and/or lemonade) regularly through the day (amount determined by your size), measure and monitor a couple of forms of nitrogen in the urine samples, and then adjust the diet to get the nitrogen into range. Reams' view was that chronically too-high nitrogen predicts sudden heart attack. To low and there is not enough to repair and build with. On the down-side, the nitrogen measures are the most logistically demanding of the RBTI measures, and I never figured out how to get the relevant reagents to try it. This would be much easier in the US, though still probably cost a bit. They also don't use standard units on this as far as I can tell. So it's not easy to do, or to verify whether the method is sound, or compare with other studies, etc, other than by the anecdotal success stories from using the method. On the other hand, if you can get the reagents and learn how to do the test, it gives a non-invasive way to measure as often as you want, and to adjust diet/fluids and monitor the effects, and there is significant anecdotal evidence for the method.

 

[pboy]

ive found that the general tonicity of fruits is ideal, a range...I just look at it per cup, like you want total sugar + protein calories, like a bare minimum 80(human milk) per cup, more ideal towards max is like 135 (about what a mango is) per cup, youll be fine with water balance in that range as long as you don't overdo salt or something else that would mess with it. So If youre eating meat or starch, you might need some plain water or like plain coffee or something, if youre only having milk, OJ, other fruit and stuff like that you don't need to drink any more water at all, and probably shouldn't. I think only drinking when thirsty for plain water is a key, if plain water in your mind seems like it will just add weight, then it probably will...you don't need it, if youre actually strongly craving something to quench thirst (for me only after starch) then its good or else digestion might be impaired

 

[visionofstrength]

From Weight Gain KMUD Herb Doctors 2013 transcription
viewtopic.php?f=73&t=5434

Int: Is there a way for people to assess their metabolic way given that is driving how well they lose or gain weight?

RP: One way is to look at everything at a food analysis chart and measure the amount of calories you are eating every day.

Another way is to calculate or take note of the fluid you drink, the total fluid intake a day and then measure the total volume of urine output in the same period of time and the difference is what is evaporated and in the average level of activity and the average relative humidity, a person will evaporate a liter per thousand of calories burned so if you only have a missing liter of fluid a day, you know you are only burning 1000 calories.

Int: So if someone gets half a gallon of fluid a day and they only pee out a couple cups you know their system has very low or no high thyroid?

RP: So a pint out of 2 liters that’s a 1500 calorie burning so that’s not very much either.

Haha, this is actually pretty cool! So in my case, let's say I consume 8 liters and total urine output is 3 to 4 liters (that might be a little high for both). After subtracting, there's 4 to 5 liters that are missing. So my energy consumed is 4 to 5,000 calories.

Meanwhile, I consume at least 4,500 calories and don't gain fat. I think I see how it works!

This assumes average activity and average humidity, which I think probably works in my case, since I live in a temperate climate and I'm not running long distances or lifting huge weights -- mostly just sitting under redlight working.

Thanks for noting this, Sheila!

 

[treelady]

Not ready to give up coffee but I think it may be making it hard for me to get to sleep even though I only have 1 cup early in the day. Found this article very interesting -Why does caffeine keep you awake - http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/drugs-alcohol/caffeine-awake.htm

 

[aquaman]

Am I reading this right? So eg:
A normal adult woman maintaining on 2500 cals would need to drink at least 2.5 litres/day to have left over for pee at all, and we need to pee to flush out some waste, so probably need ~3l+.

It's not just what you DRINK, it's what you consume.

Vegetables and fruit are often 90% water. You have to take this into account as without it, you'd end up consuming way more fluid than you think.

 

[tara]

Am I reading this right? So eg:
A normal adult woman maintaining on 2500 cals would need to drink at least 2.5 litres/day to have left over for pee at all, and we need to pee to flush out some waste, so probably need ~3l+.

It's not just what you DRINK, it's what you consume.

Vegetables and fruit are often 90% water. You have to take this into account as without it, you'd end up consuming way more fluid than you think.

Yes, good point.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Am I reading this right? So eg:
A normal adult woman maintaining on 2500 cals would need to drink at least 2.5 litres/day to have left over for pee at all, and we need to pee to flush out some waste, so probably need ~3l+.

It's not just what you DRINK, it's what you consume.

Vegetables and fruit are often 90% water. You have to take this into account as without it, you'd end up consuming way more fluid than you think.

If a cup of kale has fifty-six grams of water, that's less than half of what you could make by burning half a pound of glucose, for example. You could go on forever adding details to the calculation, but unless you are sweating more than you are peeing, I think it is a technique better suited for helping identify your metabolic rate than for finding how much you should drink.

 

[aquaman]

Not ready to give up coffee but I think it may be making it hard for me to get to sleep even though I only have 1 cup early in the day. Found this article very interesting -Why does caffeine keep you awake - http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/drugs-alcohol/caffeine-awake.htm

I LOOOOOOVE Coffee, it's hard to not drink it every day. Sometimes I go a week without it, and then get the addiction feeling of *needing* it.

But it definitely affects my sleep, and suppresses my body temps, no matter how I take it. I have milky lattes with tons of sugar, and only post meals, and it affects my sleep. It's like at 9pm I feel the mental buzz and can't sleep properly until about 1am.

 

[Raypmom]

Coffee makes me warm. I have a small cup of coffee with my meals. Always makes me tingly and warmth that lasts for hours.

Why do people always say TONS of sugar? We eat sugar in the peat world but we don't abuse it, when people say it like that it sounds like we just pour half pound of sugar on everything. Just saying.

 

[purbec]

I agree it depends how coffee is taken.
If i dose on caffeine on an empty stomach, first thing in the morning, having had food 10+ hourse before, i get a stress response, sweating, agitated, adrenaline (im metabolically 'challenged' BTW), due to lacking glycogen stores.
If i have caffeine after food, i don't have the stress response.

We can only go from personal experience.

Caffeine was the one and only substance which got me out of a bedbound state and starting to move again. I had given it up thinking it was 'bad'...like most people do when health is in a death-like state, yet despite my super-protocols and supplements, caffeine was the one thing which truly helped.

I used to 'abuse' it as a stimulant to keep me going when i didn't have time to eat - that practice really does seem to cause a stress response depletion syndrome in me - much like cocaine would without eating!

Like with everything, it has to be used wisely...and not 'abused'.

 

[BobbyDukes]

Could he simply be trying to justify his coffee addiction?

What I've been thinking recently.

When I read all about the benefits of adenosine, the more I question coffee in my diet. Don't get me wrong, I adore coffee. It feels damn good and if the quality is decent, it can give me excellent stimulatory effects, lasting a few hours. It undoubtably has an anti-depressant effect that my body has now become reliant upon. The first thing I do EVERY morning, is go straight to the kettle. I am not even a human being first thing in the morning. And the coffee really kicks my mood to where it should be, despite my tiredness (often from overworking). But I've been doing this so long now, I often wonder what I was like before my chronic caffeine dependance. I know that if I went cold turkey as of tomorrow, I might have a period of withdrawal, where I am going to feel like ***t for a while.

I wrote to the manufacturers of the company who make the coffee I buy. By my calculations, I am consuming about 600mg of caffeine per day, through my habit. I could easily do more as well. Sometimes, in the evening, I might have a third cup, and it would then be about 800mg of caffiene.

I guess I have carried on for so long with this, because:

1) I love the smell and the taste of coffee
2) I have always believed in the studies showing it to be beneficial
3) Ray Peat is usually right about stuff and I trust him (although, always good to never lose your own open mind of questioning)
4) Since discovering Peat, I believe in what he says about caffeine improving liver health (however, does this mean it's not possible to get a healthy liver without the use of caffeine? I don't believe that for one moment. The fact that caffeine strongly antagonizes adenosine, this could be affecting the quality of my sleep and I might not even realise it. I am definitely a night owl, and getting to bed at a decent hour is always an issue. I often roll into bed still buzzing at 1am).
5) It is sociable. One of the few things on the Peat inspired approach, where I can sit down with other people and we can do something together. The sharing of an experience.

I may decide to give up (just as a trial). I am focussed on getting my liver working properly. But, other than caffeine, there are other things I can do for my liver. K2, taurine, choline, lots of fructose, no starch, ample protein, etc. I mean, do I even need caffeine?

 

[tara]

The first thing I do EVERY morning, is go straight to the kettle. I am not even a human being first thing in the morning. And the coffee really kicks my mood to where it should be, despite my tiredness (often from overworking). But I've been doing this so long now, I often wonder what I was like before my chronic caffeine dependance.

Using coffee to avoid sleep is probably not a long-term healthy strategy. :)

 

[kineticz]

Someone on this forum pointed out that one's response to caffeine is a good indicator of their hormone status. I find that to be true for me. If I drink coffee when my glcogen stores are low it makes me a crazy, shaky, angry maniac. This society is encouraged to undereat and eat degraded food and so I hear a lot of people saying they can't tolerate coffe. I think it is because they are unwell and/or they don't consider their blood sugar when they consume it.

This is my view and experience with coffee/caffeine/diet coke. People think you are weird if you eat more than two meals a day often, scraping through the day seems to be a badge of honour.

 

[miko]

I'm off caffeine since 2 weeks (coffee, tea - I drink only herbal teas) and I'm feeling very good. Good night sleep, more calmness, lower anxiety and stress.

 

[Uselis]

I wonder what people mean when they say that drinking coffee on empty stomach first thing in the morning is bad thing. I do drink it like that however I drink it with milk, honey and gelatine. Is this same as if one would drink just strong coffee without nothing? I mean I still ingesting some ''food'''with coffee but is it enough to prevent stresfull response?

Thank you

 

[schultz]

I wonder what people mean when they say that drinking coffee on empty stomach first thing in the morning is bad thing. I do drink it like that however I drink it with milk, honey and gelatine. Is this same as if one would drink just strong coffee without nothing? I mean I still ingesting some ''food'''with coffee but is it enough to prevent stresfull response?

Thank you

I think what people mean is black coffee without food. I knew a lot of people who did this and they wouldn't eat much until noon even. Also, a coffee with just a bit of milk is also likely to cause problems as it's only a wee bit of milk. It sounds like the way you're doing it is pretty good. If you are concerned maybe think about a glass of juice first. Sometimes I drink juice while making my coffee in the morning.

Strong coffee by itself (or with a bit of milk or even cream) makes me feel a little dizzy and nauseous. I don't know how I used to drink that stuff all day while also not eating much sugar and other supportive things.

I drink "lattes" now. 30g of beans and 1 tbsp of sugar for every cup of milk. I use an aeropress to make "espresso". I usually have between 5-7 of these which is around 150-200g of coffee a day. The average amount of caffeine in a gram of beans is 10-12mg. So I probably have 1500-2000mg of caffeine per day (that's 15-20 "cups" of coffee, assuming 10g of beans is a "cup")

I've never had an issue drinking coffee like this, but make me drink a black grande Starbucks and I would no doubt feel sick to my stomach.