Caffeine/K2/Glycine/Methylene Blue - Fixing The Liver

DankMemes

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Hi guys and gals,

I'm planning on starting an intense "cut" in the coming weeks. I've been doing a peat-style diet for 18 months now and have seen some huge improvements in digestive health, skin health and mental wellbeing.

I have however gained a considerable amount of weight, lots of muscle, but lots of bodyfat. I'm 23 years old, 182cm, ~100kg at 20-25% bodyfat.

I enjoy powerlifting and have added a lot of weight to my lifts this past year. I would like to cut for summer and have a more defined physique. I also believe I have a sluggish liver and estrogen problems as a result of taking Accutane as a teenager.

On a typical day I'd eat anywhere from 3000 to 4000 calories (skim milk, fruit, honey, prawns, lamb shank), depending on when I last worked out or how much I've been outside etc. Macros - 180g protein, 600g carbs, 50g fat.

The purpose of my experiment is to lose a bunch of bodyfat while retaining muscle and to improve my liver function. I think 8 weeks is sufficient to see the results I'm after.

Here's a rundown of the regime I plan on taking:
  • Caffeine - 1200mg/day in 4 doses
  • K2 (Kuinone) - 30mg/day in 2 doses
  • Glycine powder - (2tsp) 10g/day in 2 doses
  • Methylene blue - 16mg/day in 4 doses
  • Estroban - 8 drops daily

I will be reducing the fat in my diet dramatically during this period, shrimp, skim milk and fruit will be the base of my diet. I think 2500 cals a day would be sufficient to induce weight loss without being too stressful.

This is the bit where I ask for advice. I'm wondering whether refeeds (3500 cal days) every 72 hours will be enough to prevent plateaus and cortisol issues.

I also have some taurine powder and Roxithromycin, my understanding is with glycine, taurine is unnecessary. I figured taking an antibiotic during my cut would reduce endotoxin load on the liver. Does anyone have an opinion on these two? I also take aspirin daily, but I've read that it can prevent the liver from dumping its fat, should I stop aspirin during my cut?

I've tried using K2 and caffeine in the past to improve liver function but have been eating at a caloric surplus. I'm already using all the aforementioned supplements besides methylene blue, albeit in lower doses. I will begin the cut with 2 weeks of diet only changes before increasing the dosage of my supplements and introducing methylene blue (hoping this doesn't interact with the others).

Anyway thanks for reading, I'll keep ya'll updated on my progress. I'm completely open to criticism, if you think I should tweak the dosages on my supps or have had relevant experiences, I'd love to hear.
 

FredSonoma

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Just out of curiosity, are you purposefully avoiding starch? I know endotoxin from starch is a liver burden, but I've found my liver health to actually improve with eating more starch and more "normal" foods, like soups / stir fries with starch included. Idk if it's mineral balance or nutrients or something, but all sugar leaves me feeling like I'm craving more, in a way that makes me agitated / bad mood, which makes me think it could be causing liver issues.
 
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DankMemes

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Yeah I'm purposefully avoiding starch. I found that without fat, starch is just so bland.

Since starting my caffeine supplement I don't really enjoy starch anymore, I get wicked cravings for sugar so I've been downing gatorade, skim milk with white sugar and lots of dates.

If you have a sluggish liver I think dumping extra fructose into the mix will be burdensome. If you tolerate starch and it doesn't feed bacteria I can see how it would be safer than sucrose if you have liver issues. In my case however starch causes bloating and skin issues, so I think the endotoxin from starch is worse than fructose from fruits.
 

milk_lover

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You can eat starch, if you want, with 100mg or more of B2 as B2 helps with endotoxin. BTW how is your vitamin D level? I think vitamin D would compliment K2 nicely. No B vitamins? What about eating liver that can provide you with B vitamins along with vitamin A and copper?
 
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DankMemes

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The number in this thread gave me the idea of 16mg.

Methylene Blue (MB) Reverses Fatty Liver Disease

The low dose used is .2mg/kg so I would like to try something similar. I'll increase the dose over a few days/weeks to test my tolerance.


Most of my B's are coming from milk. Cronometer says I've hit the RDA on all of them, but I'm not sure how much Dr Peat recommends of each. I do have some of haidut's Energin, I might add that to the mix if my diet seems to lack.

I've never had my vitamin D measured but I've been supplementing thornes k2/d3 mix alongside Kuinone and Estroban, I definitely don't want the k2 wasted :) I'll try eating more liver
 

javacody

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DankMemes

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Nothing dramatic so far but I'm definitely losing weight. Strength in the gym has somewhat plateaued but this is pretty normal when eating less.

I've lowered the MB dose to 2mg 2-3x a day. Anymore causes migraines.

My mood is pretty great considering I usually get shitty without enough calories. I think the refeeds are very important.
 

EIRE24

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Nothing dramatic so far but I'm definitely losing weight. Strength in the gym has somewhat plateaued but this is pretty normal when eating less.

I've lowered the MB dose to 2mg 2-3x a day. Anymore causes migraines.

My mood is pretty great considering I usually get shitty without enough calories. I think the refeeds are very important.
Hey @DankMemes, you say your skin improved and that you did accutane before so obviously you've had acne. Any tips on what helped improve your skin and how I could help eliminate my stubborn acne?
 
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DankMemes

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Hey @DankMemes, you say your skin improved and that you did accutane before so obviously you've had acne. Any tips on what helped improve your skin and how I could help eliminate my stubborn acne?

Yeah I had pretty severe acne during my paleo days. I think the problem was I was eating too much PUFA (which is the biggest trigger for me) but also things like kale, broccoli, seeds etc. I kept lowering carbs thinking my skin would improve, but it was the opposite. Low fat, low fiber and low plant irritant (goitrogens, phytate etc basically anything bitter) seems to keep my skin clear.

Gut irritation seems to be correlated with skin issues. Fermentable fibers, insoluble fibers, tiny seeds and spices cause a particular type of acne, kind of small whiteheads around my forehead. PUFA causes big red cysts at the corners of my mouth.

Alcohol, citrus, vinegar are also triggers for me, I think the acidity may irritate my already sensitive GI tract.

I also quit using all topical skincare products. I don't even wipe my face, just let the warm water run over it during my shower.

I also stopped all my ridiculous supplements, I was using probiotics, B complex, zinc caps etc. All of them were loaded with additives and fillers.
 

EIRE24

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Yeah I had pretty severe acne during my paleo days. I think the problem was I was eating too much PUFA (which is the biggest trigger for me) but also things like kale, broccoli, seeds etc. I kept lowering carbs thinking my skin would improve, but it was the opposite. Low fat, low fiber and low plant irritant (goitrogens, phytate etc basically anything bitter) seems to keep my skin clear.

Gut irritation seems to be correlated with skin issues. Fermentable fibers, insoluble fibers, tiny seeds and spices cause a particular type of acne, kind of small whiteheads around my forehead. PUFA causes big red cysts at the corners of my mouth.

Alcohol, citrus, vinegar are also triggers for me, I think the acidity may irritate my already sensitive GI tract.

I also quit using all topical skincare products. I don't even wipe my face, just let the warm water run over it during my shower.

I also stopped all my ridiculous supplements, I was using probiotics, B complex, zinc caps etc. All of them were loaded with additives and fillers.
When you say low fat keeps your skin clear, how low fat are you talking? I've been doing low fat like below or never exceeding 15 grams? I started to think this could be the cause of my acne? Is your skin 100% clear now?
 
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DankMemes

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When you say low fat keeps your skin clear, how low fat are you talking? I've been doing low fat like below or never exceeding 15 grams? I started to think this could be the cause of my acne? Is your skin 100% clear now?

Low fat is just one factor. Since starting my cut my fat is generally under 20g a day.

Prawns, skim milk and fruit are the base of my diet.
 

jyb

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Yeah I had pretty severe acne during my paleo days. I think the problem was I was eating too much PUFA (which is the biggest trigger for me) but also things like kale, broccoli, seeds etc. I kept lowering carbs thinking my skin would improve, but it was the opposite. Low fat, low fiber and low plant irritant (goitrogens, phytate etc basically anything bitter) seems to keep my skin clear.

We are quite different. Ever since my teens I am sometimes get acne on my face, the embarrassing cystic type acne, but it tends to be rare or non existent on my extra high fat diet. I went through various diets before that - conventional, vegetarian, various paleo diets, low fat Peat inspired, etc. I had more acne on each of those diets.
 

javacody

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We are quite different. Ever since my teens I am sometimes get acne on my face, the embarrassing cystic type acne, but it tends to be rare or non existent on my extra high fat diet. I went through various diets before that - conventional, vegetarian, various paleo diets, low fat Peat inspired, etc. I had more acne on each of those diets.

Maybe a sign that you need more fat soluble vitamins like D, K, and A?
 

jyb

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Maybe a sign that you need more fat soluble vitamins like D, K, and A?

I used to supplement those, probably got those vitamins in much higher doses than what I get now from food as a result. If I'm guessing I'd say it is just sat fat improving my digestion and protecting against endotoxin. I no longer get acne when I eat starch.
 

raypeatclips

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I used to supplement those, probably got those vitamins in much higher doses than what I get now from food as a result. If I'm guessing I'd say it is just sat fat improving my digestion and protecting against endotoxin. I no longer get acne when I eat starch.

Sorry if you've answered this clearly before. How much fat do you roughly eat a day, to see these benefits?
 

jyb

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Sorry if you've answered this clearly before. How much fat do you roughly eat a day, to see these benefits?

I got no idea what would the amount the fat required to notice this. I usually eat high fat (200 or 300g/day) and notice acne has been reduced or eliminated.
 
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javacody

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I used to supplement those, probably got those vitamins in much higher doses than what I get now from food as a result. If I'm guessing I'd say it is just sat fat improving my digestion and protecting against endotoxin. I no longer get acne when I eat starch.

If you take fat soluble vitamins on a low fat diet, you're not going to absorb them well. So you could have been taking 5 times what you're eating now and probably still have been absorbing less. Studies bear this out.
 

jyb

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If you take fat soluble vitamins on a low fat diet, you're not going to absorb them well. So you could have been taking 5 times what you're eating now and probably still have been absorbing less. Studies bear this out.

A factor of 5 is not much considering the massive dose you get from the supplements of those vitamins. I also followed Peats advice about absorbing them well from a liver meal by adding a little butter. I find supplemented retinol useful, but I have no doubt in my mind that the root cause of my acne is not deficiency of those vitamins.
 

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