Caffeine is great but constantly pushes forward sleep cycle - what to do?

RealNeat

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HI
theanine always does the trick for me when i have extra coffee and can’t sleep
+1 however one isn't addressing any causes with supps, though it does work. Ben Greenfields website has good ways to handle caffeine and coffee, though he's anti sugar like most biohackers.
 
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theanine always does the trick for me when i have extra coffee and can’t sleep
Never tried but sounds like a good idea

-Get full spectrum sunlight in the eyes as soon as possible in the morning and at regular intervals throughout the day if possible

-get a good dose of sunlight around solar noon for half an hour with the least clothing possible as able

-getting a solid dose of electrolytes has always increased my caffeine tolerance, cut down on any adrenaline-related side effects, and helped me crash out calmly and quickly before bed despite evening coffee or espresso. Boiling vegetables for half an hour with herbs, roots, spices, etc makes the broth great. Also add plenty of salt and take alongside milk for calcium. Magnesium gets an honorable mention here too.

-taking melatonin will steal from your body's necessity to produce it and melatonin is made from serotonin, which means that when it's made naturally, it's like a natural serotonin remover. IIRC melatonin only increases the chance that you'll fall asleep within a 20 minute window, but can backfire if you don't because the neurofeedback loop tells your body to stop synthesizing it. Probably takes much more than 300mcg for that to happen, but I did talk to a girl who kept ramping her dose up to 50mg a night to which she was telling me she had insomnia, only sleeping for 2 hours more often than not.

Best of luck
 

milkboi

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Never tried but sounds like a good idea

-Get full spectrum sunlight in the eyes as soon as possible in the morning and at regular intervals throughout the day if possible

-get a good dose of sunlight around solar noon for half an hour with the least clothing possible as able

-getting a solid dose of electrolytes has always increased my caffeine tolerance, cut down on any adrenaline-related side effects, and helped me crash out calmly and quickly before bed despite evening coffee or espresso. Boiling vegetables for half an hour with herbs, roots, spices, etc makes the broth great. Also add plenty of salt and take alongside milk for calcium. Magnesium gets an honorable mention here too.

-taking melatonin will steal from your body's necessity to produce it and melatonin is made from serotonin, which means that when it's made naturally, it's like a natural serotonin remover. IIRC melatonin only increases the chance that you'll fall asleep within a 20 minute window, but can backfire if you don't because the neurofeedback loop tells your body to stop synthesizing it. Probably takes much more than 300mcg for that to happen, but I did talk to a girl who kept ramping her dose up to 50mg a night to which she was telling me she had insomnia, only sleeping for 2 hours more often than not.

Best of luck

Agree with everything you wrote.

Taking such high amounts of melatonin like the girl in your story is beyond stupid because this will lead to you having Melatonin at high levels in your bloodstream ALL DAY LONG. This defeats the whole purpose of Melatonin as a Zeitgeber (I love that you Americans enjoy German words so much btw lol).
 
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AnonE

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I thought about this some more, and it's something that's gotten worse lately despite heavy caffeine consumption for quite a while. I've been having anywhere from 200mg - 400mg average daily for the last 5 years. This year my sleep's been shifted a bit (though I've always been a night owl), and last few weeks my sleep has been crap.

Interesting is the last few months I've introduced more Peat ideas: more calcium in diet, more sugars/carbs, no more fasting. And in terms of supplements, I'm on taurine, vitamin B1, B2, B3, B6, all the fat solubles (A,D,E,K2), magnesium, glycine. Occasional liver eating too. Maybe I've crashed my serotonin too low lol, if such a thing is possible. Though my weightlifting seems to be improving. In general I'm fairly lean / muscular compared to the average, 178cm / 75kg.

Lately I'm also extremely sensitive to naps, as in, if I do so, then I can be certain that night of sleep is going to be difficult... But naps feel so good sometimes... :)
 

Ignoramus

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I recently switched from coffee to cacao and it's so much better for me, personally. I use 1 teaspoon of cacao mixed with hot milk and sugar. I'll have another cup post-workout if I need one to get through the rest of the day. This still has caffeine, but it doesn't hit like coffee, and my sleep is so much better now. Give it a try!
 

jpgio

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Yeah I've heard that, I try for 12 hrs before sleep to be my last sip, but it doesn't feel enough. I could up it to 14 maybe? Seems excessive, then I basically only get it right in the morning, and can't sip on it until lunch.
I have to give myself any where from 12-15 hours after coffee it’s usually about 14 hours after coffee until I can sleep aspirin decreases this to 12 hours pretty reliably
 

Ravenslore

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You should listen to the Tim Ferriss interview with Dr. Andrew Huberman. He's a neuro-biologist who does an excellent job explaining most of the topics that came up in this thread and gives some great "hacks" for getting your brain on the circadian timing you want.
 
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AnonE

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You should listen to the Tim Ferriss interview with Dr. Andrew Huberman. He's a neuro-biologist who does an excellent job explaining most of the topics that came up in this thread and gives some great "hacks" for getting your brain on the circadian timing you want.

Sounds good, do you have a particular link I could check out?
 

Barry

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Why not quit caffeine and coffee altogether? Then replace it with sugar, lots of it! This is a serious response. I was drinking a couple cups of coffee a day, with lots of sugar and milk, and could not avoid periodic headaches. Then I slowly weaned myself off of coffee and just increased my sugar intake. I really don't miss coffee at all. Occasionally I will have a cup of coffee, but I get such a caffeine overdose now that I just try to avoid it completely.
 

Ravenslore

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If caffeine is really a factor in your ability to sleep it points to a metabolic problem in the liver. I drink the same amount (quite a bit) every day and consider any lowered tolerance to it to be an indication of a liver problem. I adjust vitamins, minerals, and nutrients especially sugar to get that excellent caffeine tolerance. It's the fastest diagnostic I have for liver status.
 
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AnonE

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If caffeine is really a factor in your ability to sleep it points to a metabolic problem in the liver. I drink the same amount (quite a bit) every day and consider any lowered tolerance to it to be an indication of a liver problem. I adjust vitamins, minerals, and nutrients especially sugar to get that excellent caffeine tolerance. It's the fastest diagnostic I have for liver status.

Possibly, I thought I had my nutrient bases covered - you name a pro-metabolic vitamin/mineral and I probably take it.

One thing I haven't taken until only recently, which has correlated to much better Caffeine tolerance and energy levels, is iron(!). Taking about 50mg a day has given way better energy at the gym, better sleep, and improved caffeine tolerance. Feeling a bit like a new person over the last week.

It's something I shied away from since reading about Peat. But I wonder if all my habits have been draining iron too much. Coffee, hard exercise, aspirin, and I'm sure a few other things I do Peat-related all drain iron I believe.

I tried supplementing every other mineral and vitamin I could think of, but nothing has helped like iron lately. Very weird, because I'm definitely of the mindset of being wary of high iron.
 

Ravenslore

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Oh wow. Iron makes me really sick. I had to find another way to raise it because mine was extremely low also. Taking a B complex and CoQ10 fixed it for me.
 

lampofred

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No. Read up adenosine's function in regards to the sleep cycle, antagonizing it will lead to increased wakefulness.

Adenosine increases wakefulness only if your dopamine is converting to adrenaline. Adenosine acts as a brake on dopamine. Lowering adenosine will increase dopamine. Dopamine converting to adrenaline is excitatory, dopamine staying as dopamine is inhibitory. PUFA causes dopamine to convert to adrenaline, calcium causes dopamine to stay as dopamine. So over time Peating will make caffeine inhibitory, not excitatory. Caffeine used to keep me up, as expected, but now it increases alertness while increasing relaxation at the same time, and actually helps me sleep deeper. It's exactly analogous to how most people think thyroid is excitatory, but it's actually inhibitory once you take it long enough.
 

Sitaruîm

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Caffeine is a dopaminergic, adrenergic agonist, serotonin antagonist. It also activates histaminergic neurons. All this together can cause insomnia if your catecholamines are high and your serotonin is also lowish. You clearly do not need it thats why sleep is basically impossible to get right when you consume it. You need to go at a low enough dose or have to just avoid it all together. Its uncommon but some people really cannot do stimulants. If you can ideally its best not to take any stimulants anyway.
I think this is the case for me. My health is at its best and I only drink coffee out of pleasure rather than need, and each time I drink coffee my sleep is a bit worse.
 

redsun

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I think this is the case for me. My health is at its best and I only drink coffee out of pleasure rather than need, and each time I drink coffee my sleep is a bit worse.
Sleep is not affected if you consume the same amount every day and far enough away from the time you go to sleep. There is no adaptation of adenosine receptors to once in a while. Unless you are a slow metabolizer of caffeine and you already have a lot of natural stimulation. Then that's a recipe for insomnia. This combination is probably what causes OP's problems.
 

NathanK

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Adenosine increases wakefulness only if your dopamine is converting to adrenaline. Adenosine acts as a brake on dopamine. Lowering adenosine will increase dopamine. Dopamine converting to adrenaline is excitatory, dopamine staying as dopamine is inhibitory. PUFA causes dopamine to convert to adrenaline, calcium causes dopamine to stay as dopamine. So over time Peating will make caffeine inhibitory, not excitatory. Caffeine used to keep me up, as expected, but now it increases alertness while increasing relaxation at the same time, and actually helps me sleep deeper. It's exactly analogous to how most people think thyroid is excitatory, but it's actually inhibitory once you take it long enough.
Nice post ?
 

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