Caffeine Can Shorten Life Expectancy - But Alcohol Lengthens

[Thomas]

Any thoughts?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... xpect.html

cheers
thomas

 

[charlie]

Re: Caffeine can shorten life expectancy - but alcohol lengt

 

[pboy]

Re: Caffeine can shorten life expectancy - but alcohol lengt

Im surprised alcohol lengthens it...but that's actually cool to hear. That could help explain why many long lived people at least drink a little. Personally I can't do beer
or wine because of the gastral upset but I enjoy a mixed drink or clear sake. All I can think of with regards to caffeine is that it potentially could increase metabolism beyond the stress threshold. Its pretty obvious to see how it could cause inflammation and stress...many people report being jittery or not able to sleep after drinking caffeine, or get headaches. But many other people become better workers, artists, thinkers...and function better with some caffeine. Its probably not so cut and dry, probably depends on many factors. Also...coffee doesn't just contain caffeine, it also has minerals and polyphenols that might counteract some of the pure effects of caffeine.
I wonder also if its just caffeine that shortens the telomeres or if theobromine does too...id be surprised, because many long lived people also eat chocolate regularly

I just looked at another website...http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/88/5/1405.full

they claim the only thing tested that showed a noticeable decrease in telomere length was process meat...lol. Maybe that's the oly culprit behind Americas woes

 

[haidut]

Re: Caffeine can shorten life expectancy - but alcohol lengt

There is no confusion. The effects are as the original study described them but that in no way justifies the title of the popular press article. Caffeine shortened telomeres and alcohol lengthened them. Peat wrote about how long telomeres are associated with cancer and not with longevity. Estrogen and radiation also elongate telomeres and they certainly do not extend lifespan. Whoever chose to take the telomere effects of caffeine and beer and craft such an idiotic title should not be practicing journalism.
Just my 2c.

 

[DaveFoster]

There is no confusion. The effects are as the original study described them but that in no way justifies the title of the popular press article. Caffeine shortened telomeres and alcohol lengthened them. Peat wrote about how long telomeres are associated with cancer and not with longevity. Estrogen and radiation also elongate telomeres and they certainly do not extend lifespan. Whoever chose to take the telomere effects of caffeine and beer and craft such an idiotic title should not be practicing journalism.
Just my 2c.

 

[Luann]

Look at coffee and alcohol in terms of oxidative stress. That said, Huffington Post would do anything for a bit of attention.

 

[haidut]

Look at coffee and alcohol in terms of oxidative stress. That said, Huffington Post would do anything for a bit of attention.

You mean caffeine causing oxidative stress and alcohol causing reductive stress, right?

 

[Queequeg]

This is the study in question
Environmental Stresses Disrupt Telomere Length Homeostasis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3764183/

Abstract
Telomeres protect the chromosome ends from degradation and play crucial roles in cellular aging and disease. Recent studies have additionally found a correlation between psychological stress, telomere length, and health outcome in humans. However, studies have not yet explored the causal relationship between stress and telomere length, or the molecular mechanisms underlying that relationship. Using yeast as a model organism, we show that stresses may have very different outcomes: alcohol and acetic acid elongate telomeres, whereas caffeine and high temperatures shorten telomeres. Additional treatments, such as oxidative stress, show no effect. By combining genome-wide expression measurements with a systematic genetic screen, we identify the Rap1/Rif1 pathway as the central mediator of the telomeric response to environmental signals. These results demonstrate that telomere length can be manipulated, and that a carefully regulated homeostasis may become markedly deregulated in opposing directions in response to different environmental cues.

 

[Agent207]

Peat wrote about how long telomeres are associated with cancer and not with longevity.

So younger people have increased risk of cancer by the telomere variable?

What it can't be denied is that longer telomeres are much more associated with youth than with cancer, in that:

1. All younger people preserve longer telomeres.
2. Not all people with longer telomeres (ie.youngers) present for higher cancer potential risk than the rest of population.. rather the opposite.

 

[Queequeg]

seems like we have gone through this one before
study says coffee/caffeine shortens lifespan by shortening telomeres

Haidut, no surprises, makes a very good point, no need to put down the coffee

Hhhmm, how about tens of studies in living organisms showing caffeine dramatically increases lifespan!?! This thread I posted more than a year ago shows 52% increase in lifespan from human equivalent intake range of 600mg-1,200mg per day.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=2114

Not sure why anybody would do a "study" trying to "prove" theoretically (using a flawed idea like telomere elongation) that caffeine shortens lifespan, when it has been shown in to increase it in actual living organisms.
Btw, anything that lengthens your telomeres makes you more likely to get cancer. The few studies using extracts from the herb Astragalus known to increase telomeres bombed spectacularly after most of the animals died of cancer prematurely...
The idea of telomeres can only be taken seriously by people who believe in the Hayflick limit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayflick_limit

However, as Ray has said numerous times and other people (Nobel laureates) have stated as well, human cells in the right conditions are IMMORTAL!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Car ... senescence

 

[Luann]

@haidut, ncbi calls it "oxidative stress" from alcohol, do they just mean that r.o.s. are made?

 

[haidut]

@haidut, ncbi calls it "oxidative stress" from alcohol, do they just mean that r.o.s. are made?

I think alcohol promotes the peroxidation of PUFA and this can cause "oxidative stress" in the liver. But alcohol itself directly leads to build up of NADH because it requires NAD to metabolize. So, alcohol potently lowers the NAD/NADH ratio and as such a build up of electrons. When the organism is working properly (as in a young person) alcohol consumption can produce a lot of energy. But in an older or hypo thyroid person, alcohol leads to electron build up, and it also inhibits the electron transport chain so it is unable to consume the increased amount of NADH.
TLDR: If a person eats a PUFA-rich diet and drink alcohol they will probably get perodixative stress characterized by increase in MDA, as well as reductive stress characterized by buildup of NADH. The lipid peroxidation in combination with iron leads to liver damage and the build up of NADH and inhibition of electron transport chain leads to systemic metabolic slowdown. If a person is depleted of PUFA, then alcohol does not do much damage as there is no unstable lipids to raise MDA and also the NADH generated by alcohol will quickly get used up to generate CO2 and water. I would not recommend using alcohol as calories though, even in healthy people. It is also estrogenic and that part cannot be avoided.

 

[Makrosky]

LOOOOOOOL

 

[zztr]

I would not recommend using alcohol as calories though, even in healthy people. It is also estrogenic and that part cannot be avoided.

What about gut hygiene and anti-microbial properties in general? I have repeatedly seen advice in old guides to make sure to have a couple drinks with meals in such-and-such place to help avoid food poisoning. OK, alcohol is estrogenic, but what about the bugs and parasites that are also estrogenic? I mean, advice to take anti-biotics gets thrown out here like it's no biggie.

Modern cities exist because of alcohol. When sewage treatment and refrigeration wasn't "a thing" it was spirits and beer and wine that made population density viable. I think most people descendant from urbanized populations can probably tolerate alcohol fine and and probably see benefits from it. It seems to be different for people closer to a hunter-gatherer past.

I eat a "main meal" in the evening and find that one or two drinks with it definitely helps keep digestion ticking over. I wonder about the anti microbial properties.

 

[sladerunner69]

What about gut hygiene and anti-microbial properties in general? I have repeatedly seen advice in old guides to make sure to have a couple drinks with meals in such-and-such place to help avoid food poisoning. OK, alcohol is estrogenic, but what about the bugs and parasites that are also estrogenic? I mean, advice to take anti-biotics gets thrown out here like it's no biggie.

Modern cities exist because of alcohol. When sewage treatment and refrigeration wasn't "a thing" it was spirits and beer and wine that made population density viable. I think most people descendant from urbanized populations can probably tolerate alcohol fine and and probably see benefits from it. It seems to be different for people closer to a hunter-gatherer past.

I eat a "main meal" in the evening and find that one or two drinks with it definitely helps keep digestion ticking over. I wonder about the anti microbial properties.

Yep, the engative effects of alcohol are pretty well documented on this forum. PUFA potentiates these negative effects no doubt (as well as the intoxication and hangovers).

But I totally agree that alcohol was significant if not vital in the development and construction of the modern world. If you enjoy the modern world, despite it's various pitfalls, and I think we should- then a tip of the hat to ol' beer and whiskey is pretty much obligatory.

I think people of certain decents and ancestry have, over the course of dozens of generations, developed affinities for certain alcohols. It is obvious to me that certain peoples have particular preferences for certain alcohols, the scots love whiskey, the italians love wine, the germans beer, and the inverse also seems true that they do not fair well on less common spirits. As a guy with Italian and French ancestry, that is perhaps why I take such a hammering from a moderate portion of sake at the sushi bar, but I can drink a couple bottles of white wine and still maintain a decent conversation. What comes to mind is an episode of british Top Gear, where the hosts tour Vietnam, and after a couple "viper vodka" (rice vodka) shots they lose their minds and wake up with terrible hangovers (unusual for them).

Sure this is all conjecture but I think it makes sense. The bigger question this leads me to is if it is true that there is a genetic predisposition for alchol consumption, then is there also a necessity? Could alcohol consumption be a supplement for the modern human experience? The vast majority of people seem to enjoy the lifestyle of regular mainsteam eating with either moderate daily drinking or interval binge drinking. I almost believe that alcohol is god's (or nature's) reward for a long workweek, and that life may actually be incomplete without getting drunk on weekends...

 

[haidut]

What about gut hygiene and anti-microbial properties in general? I have repeatedly seen advice in old guides to make sure to have a couple drinks with meals in such-and-such place to help avoid food poisoning. OK, alcohol is estrogenic, but what about the bugs and parasites that are also estrogenic? I mean, advice to take anti-biotics gets thrown out here like it's no biggie.

Modern cities exist because of alcohol. When sewage treatment and refrigeration wasn't "a thing" it was spirits and beer and wine that made population density viable. I think most people descendant from urbanized populations can probably tolerate alcohol fine and and probably see benefits from it. It seems to be different for people closer to a hunter-gatherer past.

I eat a "main meal" in the evening and find that one or two drinks with it definitely helps keep digestion ticking over. I wonder about the anti microbial properties.

It's probably OK to drink socially. As my sentence that you quoted said, I don't think alcohol should be used as food. Some people may get tempted to do it as it metabolized rather easily and requires no functional digestive system like regular food does. And since it metabolize to acetate it gets used preferentially for fueling the Krebs cycle even in the presence of glucose. So, as antiseptic it is probably OK, but as food replacement it is not.

 

[Peater Piper]

Is alcohol really an effective antiseptic in the intestines? I would have thought it's absorbed too fast to really do much. Also, liver complications from alcohol are mainly due to alcohol's ability to increase intestinal permeability, allowing endotoxin transport into the liver.

 

[zztr]

s alcohol really an effective antiseptic in the intestines?

It's more about sterilizing the food and liquids in your stomach. A drink or two with meals will help prevent bad critters from getting established in the first place. Obviously a few shots of vodka don't make it to the big intestine to do anything there.

Though I am curious what anti-microbial properties alcohol might have in the blood. Getting a good buzz on every now and then might help kill some critters, but I have no idea. I've seen aspirin recommended here for that reason.

 

[Luann]

Lol cool, thanks for your "tldr" haidut. if you have time, could you explain more on reductive stress, since not very many search results come up for it; is it as dangerous as oxidative stress? how is it caused?

 

[DrJ]

You sure know how to tease a guy into reverting to bad habits