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Caffeine And Progression Of Parkinson Disease: A Deleterious Interaction With Creatine

Discussion in 'Cancer, Degenerative Diseases' started by sweetly, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. sweetly

    sweetly Member

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26366971

    Caffeine intake was not associated with the rate of progression of PD in the main analysis, but higher caffeine intake was associated with significantly faster progression among subjects taking creatine.

    This is the largest and longest study conducted to date that addresses the association of caffeine with the rate of progression of PD. These data indicate a potentially deleterious interaction between caffeine and creatine with respect to the rate of progression of PD.
     
  2. DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    This is... troubling. Caffeine is good. Creatine is good. Caffeine and creatine is bad. Go figure. Maybe it's the creatine alone.
     
  3. OP
    sweetly

    sweetly Member

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    This study is only about people with Parkinson's disease.
     
  4. High_Prob

    High_Prob Member

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    @haidut what is your take on this study?
     
  5. haidut

    haidut Member

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    Caffeine and creatine are known to interact badly. You can even Google "caffeine creatine combination" for more info. I suspect it is because of opposite effects on adenosine receptors. Taking both together probably confuses some feedback mechanism and dopamine release is greatly reduced as a result.
     
  6. Regina

    Regina Member

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    What about caffeine with inosine. Or creatine with inosine combo??
     
  7. DankMemes

    DankMemes Member

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    This negative interaction is big news to me and plenty of others here who are interested in lifting weights/bodybuilding.

    Would it work to cycle each supplement? Say one day caffeine and not creatine, one day creatine and not caffeine etc or should the cycles be weeks/months long>
     
  8. haidut

    haidut Member

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    I think caffeine and inosine combo has some great potential.
     
  9. High_Prob

    High_Prob Member

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    Thanks for your reply @haidut.
     
  10. High_Prob

    High_Prob Member

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    @haidut, if Inosine activates adenosine receptors like creatine does then wouldn't it most likely have the same negative interaction when mixed with caffeine (because of opposite effects on adenosine receptors)?
     
  11. haidut

    haidut Member

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    I have not seen studies about caffeine and inosine interacting badly. To the contrary, there was ergogenic benefit as far as I can remember.
     
  12. Constatine

    Constatine Member

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    I don't think large doses of creatine are really healthy simply due to water retention. Water retention can have some very negative effects on the body by itself.
     
  13. TubZy

    TubZy Member

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    Wow, that is crazy..you know how many fitness "pre-workout" drinks contains caffeine and creatine together? And that is not even counting the massive amount of NO boosters and synthetic colors and fillers as well. That ***t has got to be toxic, so glad I stopped taking them.
     
  14. Wagner83

    Wagner83 Member

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    Wouldn't drinking coffee after a meal with red meat be deleterious as well?
     
  15. sladerunner69

    sladerunner69 Member

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    I think this is a classic case of drawing overly simple conclusions and attributing causality when there is only a correlation.

    Who takes caffiene? Most people, so the sample pool is very large. Who takes creatine? Not anywhere near as many as those who take caffiene, but still a large ampunt of athletes, a lot of health concious and responsible athletes who reserve themselves for moderation. Now, what is the sample group like for those taking creatine AND caffiene? Not very large, and probably only limited to hardcore bodybuilders who are likely taking a laundry list of other supplements and eating a highly inflammatory diet. That is of course just speculation, but I think this should be looked into more because we do not have similar sample groups at all in this kind of study which was based on observation/poll data and not empirical experiments.
     
  16. Mito

    Mito Member

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    @Travis Have you read this study? Do you think supplementing with creatine monohydrate when caffeine is part of the diet has adverse effects on the dopamine system?
     
  17. Travis

    Travis Member

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    The Parkinson's was considered to have become worse based on a self‐applied, multiple choice assessment called the Unified Parkinson Disease Rating Scale (which can be viewed here). Since the difference between the high‐ and low‐creatine groups was a mere two UPDRS points, and two points is the precise difference between circling either 'normal erect' or 'moderately stooped posture,' I am disinclined to raise a red flag. But these were large groups of people and this finding has been confirmed by others so there is probably something to it—perhaps some interaction between levodopa and creatine. I know that much of the dyskinesia found in Parkinson's can be explained by methyldopamine (methoxytyramine) and not levodopa itself, so maybe there's some methylation going on somewhere. Creatine has an N‐methyl group that it could perhaps contribute to the so‐called 'methyl pool.'

    'The influence of creatine on labile methyl pool metabolism, and consequently on methionine Hcy cycling and tHcy concentrations, has so far been underestimated. Estimation of labile methyl pool consumption [10, 11] demonstrated that creatine biosynthesis accounts for up to 70% of the methylation reactions in the human body.' ―Taes

    It could be something as simple as a bit more O‐methylation of dopamine, forming the dyskinesic 3‐methoxytyramine—the same molecules shown by Feuerstein, and others, to be the very cause of Parkinson's dyskinesia and responsible for most of the symptoms. Anyone with Parkinson's should perhaps drink green tea to inhibit catechol O‐methyltransferase, the enzyme responsible for methylating the excessive levodopa given to Parkinson's patients.

    'The results revealed that the intracerebroventricular injection of 1 μmol of 3-OMD impaired locomotor activities by decreasing movement time, total distance, and the number of movement by 70, 74 and 61%, respectively.' ―Lee

    My best guess is the creatine supplementation is sparing endogenous methyl groups by sparing de novo creatine biosynthesis. These methyl groups—which could perhaps be mentally pictured as affiliated with S‐adenosylmethionine—would then be available for oxygen‐linked methyl transfer to dopamine through catechol O‐methyltransferase, using S‐adenosylmethionine as cofactor.

    Having a few more spare methyl groups could translate to a few more Parkinson's patients circling 'Mild slowing and/or reduction in amplitude,' a few less circling 'normal,' and perhaps even a few circling 'Can barely perform the task.'


    Fahn S, Elton. "Unified Parkinson’s Disease Rating Scale" (1987)
    Lee, Eun-Sook Y. "The role of 3-O-methyldopa in the side effects of L-dopa." Neurochemical research (2008)
    Taes, Youri. "Creatine supplementation decreases homocysteine in an animal model of uremia." Kidney international (2003)
    Feuerstein, C. L. "PLASMA O‐METHYLDOPA IN LEVODOPA‐INDUCED DYSKINESIAS A Bioclinical Investigation." Acta Neurologica Scandinavica (1977)
    Qian, Qiu-Jin. "Gene–gene interaction between COMT and MAOA potentially predicts the intelligence of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder boys in China." Behavior genetics (2010)
     
  18. Mito

    Mito Member

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    That’s what this study would suggest.

    The metabolic burden of creatine synthesis. - PubMed - NCBI
     
  19. theLaw

    theLaw Member

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    @Travis @Mito

    Sounds like the potential risks are minor, so I wonder why it's not mentioned more here.
     
  20. jitsmonkey

    jitsmonkey Member

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    Especially factoring in that the study cited is all self reported consumption, no control for smoking, no control for diet, etc....
    its worth having the correlation in a thought process but hardly causative and frankly barely even worth taking seriously
    Some more robust studies would need to be presented for this to be seen as a real and legitimate threat.
     
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