Buteyko - What's Your CP?

[Ahanu]

"Small increases in CO2 produce large increases in breathing. Decreases in CO2 below normal can, in sleep and anesthesia, decrease breathing, even to apnea."

So then Hyperventilation which increase a loss of co2 could be the reason for sleep apnea, as buteyko claimed.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Thanks Hamster and Ahanu for your answers - very inspiring. It seems to me that you both have an increased sense of well-being, besides all the other benefits. I definitely want to start working on my CP again.
Hamster, if you had to do it over, how would you balance your CP progress with the resultant metabolic changes?
Do you think that if I tried to slowly raise CP my metabolic rate would slowly adjust?
Thinking I will try PUFA depletion with a VLF diet for several weeks first to hopefully raise metabolism a bit, maybe not simultaneously with CP exercises since eating fat free and being cold from lowering metabolism in the winter is not exactly my idea of a party!

I would stay warm. I was cold and failed to warm up. I think raising cp as quickly as possible is a good idea though. Within reason. It is strikingly effective. More than any other modality at all.

 

[ecstatichamster]

So then Hyperventilation which increase a loss of co2 could be the reason for sleep apnea, as buteyko claimed.

100pct true.

 

[lollipop]

Rhythm of breathing affects memory, fear
Breathing is not just for oxygen; it's also linked to brain function, behavior

Thought this was interesting:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161207093034.htm

 

[HLP]

My CP is 35-40 but I do practice "non breathing" quite a bit. It just becomes habit after a while. Humming is generally a good practice since it requires more exhaling than inhaling.

 

[Ideonaut]

I sleep sitting up (in a recliner)

What's sleeping in a sitting position supposed to do for you? I remember seeing something on tv many years ago (40?) about Scandinavians long ago sleeping sitting up because they thought it was better for you.

 

[ecstatichamster]

What's sleeping in a sitting position supposed to do for you? I remember seeing something on tv many years ago (40?) about Scandinavians long ago sleeping sitting up because they thought it was better for you.

Prevents hyperventilation.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

Two interesting intersections here

My CP is 35-40 but I do practice "non breathing" quite a bit. It just becomes habit after a while. Humming is generally a good practice since it requires more exhaling than inhaling.

1. Singing and presumably humming stimulate the vagal nerve. Vagal nerve -> heart rate variability.

2. Regarding sleeping in a recliner, IBT (Inclined Bed Therapy) is similar and is touted to have many benefits. None of the theory involves CO2, though.

 

[Regina]

Here's a good way to test your control pause.
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[nikolabeacon]

He man

 

[lollipop]

He man

In some ways he sort of looks like Ray Peat - or Ray Peat like him depending on chronological sequence...

 

[nikolabeacon]

In some ways he sort of looks like Ray Peat - or Ray Peat like him depending on chronological sequence...

in this maybe watching from afar character may
Remind( because of hair style , gesture and glasses) i like these types of hairstyles

 

[lollipop]

in this maybe watching from afar character may
Remind( because of hair style , gesture and glasses) i like these types of hairstyles

 

[Xisca]

My CP sometimes reaches 30, and I do not want to go over before solving health issues.... Last year I had teeth problems showing up when reaching 30.

 

[Johnson Bagfoot]

A primary metric for measuring CO2 saturation in lung alveoli is the control pause promoted by Dr. Buteyko, wherein you inhale normally, exhale normally, and hold your noise until you feel a pulsing sensation from your diaphragm or throat.

Use a stopwatch to time the number of seconds between the point of clamping your noise while ceasing your breathing, and the pulsing sensation.

After recovering from a major downturn in my health, my CP is 18. I hope to get it up to 60 within three months, and ideally up to 120 - 180 over the long-term.

How's your CP now?

Mine is 30, up from 4 seconds at the start. It took 5 months of intensive training, up to 2 hours per day.

I also had high hopes of achieving a 2 minute+ CP very quickly. I was extremely determined, but have now surrendered to a more gradual process with the same long term goal.

Retraining breathing seems to have a cascade of effects on the biochemical situation of the body, which may have been maintained in a low co2 state for decades. As a result, it really does take time. Practitioners often say that the fastest rate for improvement is approximately 1/10th of the time the low CP or disease state existed. I've spoken to several people who have achieved extraordinarily high CPs, over 2 minutes. They stated that it took them years, undergoing many "cleansing reactions", long plateaus then sudden rises, necessary increases in physical activity, the removal of limiting factors e.g. focal infections, the medication of factors e.g. thyroid, cortisol (which may resolve at a higher CP, but could be required to get to such a level, or get there quickly).

I've been told a reasonable minimum time to achieve 60 CP is 1 year, if you're starting around 15s.

Practitioners achieving 90 secs + CP say it was well worth doing, though. Benefits do continue to increase over 60s. Around 2 minutes, I've been told there is an almost unshakeable calm and grounded-ness, a natural equanimity to whatever might arise. Not unlike sought-after meditation attainments. It's also interesting how natural preferences and inclinations change with higher CP. I was told by one practitioner that his dietary choices, personality and lots of things he considered fundamental to himself changed completely. He was stunned and still is. And he was more stunned that people still aren't that interested or give up quickly.

I suppose it is hard work, and takes a peculiar type of discipline to progress far with. Most will quit at 20-30s, at the level their primary symptoms are alleviated a little, and that's enough for them.



It is also worth noting that most people cannot proceed further than a 20 second CP unless they're doing 1+ hours of cardio or equivalent a day. Likewise, close attention to the effect of dietary choices on respiration is required. Another key point I've found is that straining and will power only work to a certain CP, but after that, it's necessary to be very gentle and focus on relaxation. Buteykos summary of the technique was: gradual reduction in breathing volume via relaxation. I only really started to appreciate that after straining for half a year.

Johnson

 

[lollipop]

How's your CP now?

Mine is 30, up from 4 seconds at the start. It took 5 months of intensive training, up to 2 hours per day.

I also had high hopes of achieving a 2 minute+ CP very quickly. I was extremely determined, but have now surrendered to a more gradual process with the same long term goal.

Retraining breathing seems to have a cascade of effects on the biochemical situation of the body, which may have been maintained in a low co2 state for decades. As a result, it really does take time. Practitioners often say that the fastest rate for improvement is approximately 1/10th of the time the low CP or disease state existed. I've spoken to several people who have achieved extraordinarily high CPs, over 2 minutes. They stated that it took them years, undergoing many "cleansing reactions", long plateaus then sudden rises, necessary increases in physical activity, the removal of limiting factors e.g. focal infections, the medication of factors e.g. thyroid, cortisol (which may resolve at a higher CP, but could be required to get to such a level, or get there quickly).

I've been told a reasonable minimum time to achieve 60 CP is 1 year, if you're starting around 15s.

Practitioners achieving 90 secs + CP say it was well worth doing, though. Benefits do continue to increase over 60s. Around 2 minutes, I've been told there is an almost unshakeable calm and grounded-ness, a natural equanimity to whatever might arise. Not unlike sought-after meditation attainments. It's also interesting how natural preferences and inclinations change with higher CP. I was told by one practitioner that his dietary choices, personality and lots of things he considered fundamental to himself changed completely. He was stunned and still is. And he was more stunned that people still aren't that interested or give up quickly.

I suppose it is hard work, and takes a peculiar type of discipline to progress far with. Most will quit at 20-30s, at the level their primary symptoms are alleviated a little, and that's enough for them.



It is also worth noting that most people cannot proceed further than a 20 second CP unless they're doing 1+ hours of cardio or equivalent a day. Likewise, close attention to the effect of dietary choices on respiration is required. Another key point I've found is that straining and will power only work to a certain CP, but after that, it's necessary to be very gentle and focus on relaxation. Buteykos summary of the technique was: gradual reduction in breathing volume via relaxation. I only really started to appreciate that after straining for half a year.

Johnson

Interesting reflections @Johnson Bagfoot. Reminds me of pranayama and the effects that come from long term practice. Slow and steady improvement and practice are required because of the potential to harm the nervous system and brain from pushing to too quickly into advanced pranayamas. Pantanjali in the yoga sutras - one of the main yoga texts says that breath is a sure fire way to still the fluctuations of the mind in order to see the Self as it is. Your reflections above reminded me of this.

 

[DaveFoster]

How's your CP now?

Mine is 30, up from 4 seconds at the start. It took 5 months of intensive training, up to 2 hours per day.

I also had high hopes of achieving a 2 minute+ CP very quickly. I was extremely determined, but have now surrendered to a more gradual process with the same long term goal.

Retraining breathing seems to have a cascade of effects on the biochemical situation of the body, which may have been maintained in a low co2 state for decades. As a result, it really does take time. Practitioners often say that the fastest rate for improvement is approximately 1/10th of the time the low CP or disease state existed. I've spoken to several people who have achieved extraordinarily high CPs, over 2 minutes. They stated that it took them years, undergoing many "cleansing reactions", long plateaus then sudden rises, necessary increases in physical activity, the removal of limiting factors e.g. focal infections, the medication of factors e.g. thyroid, cortisol (which may resolve at a higher CP, but could be required to get to such a level, or get there quickly).

I've been told a reasonable minimum time to achieve 60 CP is 1 year, if you're starting around 15s.

Practitioners achieving 90 secs + CP say it was well worth doing, though. Benefits do continue to increase over 60s. Around 2 minutes, I've been told there is an almost unshakeable calm and grounded-ness, a natural equanimity to whatever might arise. Not unlike sought-after meditation attainments. It's also interesting how natural preferences and inclinations change with higher CP. I was told by one practitioner that his dietary choices, personality and lots of things he considered fundamental to himself changed completely. He was stunned and still is. And he was more stunned that people still aren't that interested or give up quickly.

I suppose it is hard work, and takes a peculiar type of discipline to progress far with. Most will quit at 20-30s, at the level their primary symptoms are alleviated a little, and that's enough for them.



It is also worth noting that most people cannot proceed further than a 20 second CP unless they're doing 1+ hours of cardio or equivalent a day. Likewise, close attention to the effect of dietary choices on respiration is required. Another key point I've found is that straining and will power only work to a certain CP, but after that, it's necessary to be very gentle and focus on relaxation. Buteykos summary of the technique was: gradual reduction in breathing volume via relaxation. I only really started to appreciate that after straining for half a year.

Johnson

I can get up to a minute to a minute and ninety seconds. It depends on my hormonal state at the time.

 

[DaveFoster]

In some ways he sort of looks like Ray Peat - or Ray Peat like him depending on chronological sequence...

Buteyko, BF Skinner, and Ray Peat.

 

[lollipop]

Buteyko, BF Skinner, and Ray Peat.

WoW!! Sooooo much a like @DaveFoster

 

[Johnson Bagfoot]

Interesting reflections @Johnson Bagfoot. Reminds me of pranayama and the effects that come from long term practice. Slow and steady improvement and practice are required because of the potential to harm the nervous system and brain from pushing to too quickly into advanced pranayamas. Pantanjali in the yoga sutras - one of the main yoga texts says that breath is a sure fire way to still the fluctuations of the mind in order to see the Self as it is. Your reflections above reminded me of this.

Yes absolutely. Straining too hard for improvement during each session or across sessions can be counterproductive. Due the release of stress hormones and the need for physiological adaptations to occur slowly over time. In this light it also seems to take a similar time to add X% to CP. That is to say 10 to 15 might take a similar time as from 40 to 60, because by then a large number of issues holding back optimum respiration are resolved, so it's easier to progress with breathing exercises and supportive factors e.g. increased cardio.

And yes it reflects the essence of yoga - to still/suspend the breath at the nostrils and therefore still the mind. Buteyko is a yogic practise, especially at higher levels, where mental benefits become more apparent. Pranayama essentially works if it can reduce breathing volume via training co2 tolerance + relaxation. Buteyko just came up with a very specific criteria of respiratory minute volume and CP to reflect that. Likwise, if a certain yoga does not fit buteykos criteria, it probably won't produce health improvements in the individual, so you have a way of judging efficacy. It's very common for certain yoga classes to teach increased/overbreathing or even hyperventilation, can be both extremely unsafe and ineffective at low CP. It's possibly only useful in very specific situations (let's say something like holotropic breath work for the purpose of therapy or wim hofs stuff), but only in very good health.

Perhaps one of the most interesting things about very high CP people I speak to, is that they often had spontaneous new insights into reality and the self. Or, spiritual "awakenings", without making it sound too cheesy. That is to say, the developed equanimity through breathing retraining allowed them to naturally disembed and enter a witnessing state, to objectify and stay equanimous to thoughts and sensations as and when they arise, and therefore experientially understand their nature. And likewise, to use this same clarity to investigate the apparent subject "I" who appears to knows these thoughts or sensations, and who previously appeared to be fused inseparably to them.

You could say, reduced breathing is like sharpening a knife that allows you to cut through reality. Like slicing a melon and seeing exactly what's inside. As opposed to simply squashing the melon with a very blunt knife.

I also think it has something to with the physiological reversal of the fight or flight mechanism. At lower CPs, the organism feels under threat, stress hormones are high. A strong, painful sense of self is tied to a sense of environment danger and an incentive to survive. Then, at higher CPs, the organism is relaxed, it's safe, and with less sense of danger the boundaries between the apparent separate self and separate world can become more diffuse and maybe even dissolve completely.

I can get up to a minute to a minute and ninety seconds. It depends on my hormonal state at the time.

That's extremely impressive. Can you talk a bit more about what the key factors for improvement were for you? And what the optimum hormonal state for a super high CP seems to be ?

Johnson