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BSV is the "Real Bitcoin". Cryptocurrency is neither Crypto, nor Currency. It's all a farce to society's detriment.
- Thread starter X3CyO
- Start date
Ok here's some point by point. And it starts really badly. Are you not aware that basic Peat health ideas are currently considered illegal misinformation? The benefit of cryptocurrency is to get out of the system's control grid. It's money for people who can't use the current system. Currently that means DarkNetMarkets since there's no way to access dollars online without permission. When they eliminate cash and implement a CBDC, a lot more people will NEED cryptocurrency. A real cryptocurrency.
>anything "illegal" on BSV will put you in jail.
So the satanic pedophiles currently mandating deadly injections can use BSV against me. Awesome.
>"people that commit crime on bitcoin, 20 years later will go to prison"
Seriously look at how things have changed in the last 20 years. People get cancelled for tweets they made years ago. 20 years from now you might get a knock at the door for your purchase of the, now illegal, progesterone hormone.
>I had no interest in the banking system or financial crisis
Strange way to timestamp the genesis block in that case.
>previous "echash" systems being too anonymous was the problem I wanted to solve
Straight up lie. Literally just read the whitepaper. https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
"We propose a solution to the double-spending problem"
Section 10 of the white paper is dedicated to privacy and discusses it in relation to the traditional banking system (and not in relation to any other echash) and implies that privacy is a good thing that bitcoin will have to manage in a different way given its public nature.
And you can look at Satoshi's posts on bitcointalk
Topic: "The goal is to provide all the same security of the existing system, but to avoid creating a public graph of every transaction that is easily correlated."
Satoshi's response: "This is a very interesting topic. If a solution was found, a much better, easier, more convenient implementation of Bitcoin would be possible."
And then he continues on to roughly describe Monero's current features as some potential ideas.
Or look at Hal Finney less than a month after bitcoin's launch "Looking at ways to add more anonymity to bitcoin"
View: https://twitter.com/halfin/status/1136749815
PoW blockchain solved a real problem but the most basic implementation is terrible for privacy. That's why all the smart, early, and REAL people in bitcoin had privacy as a top priority.
>bitcoin does not create wealth because it doesn't create loans
Loans do not create wealth. Loans are created out of thin air. They create liquidity that can get projects moving but at the end of the day it is people doing the work that have created wealth and the "money" they were paid in was created out of thin air at the discretion of a bank.
>micro transactions on chain
>putting random logs on chain
This is completely stupid if you have a basic understanding of blockchains. Nobody has any interest in storing all that garbage data and this is proven by the fact that BSV has less than 100 synced nodes and falling. The system becomes centralized and users are forced to trust third parties to access the chain. The whole purpose is defeated. Bitcoin SV / Node explorer
>the government will be traceable
Obviously the government will not actually adopt BSV so that's a retarded pipe dream. Even if BSV was official currency of all governments, they would still get their black ops done off the books, no different than today.
>"privacy" not anonymity
Basically you are naked in front of the whole world but they probably won't be looking or care who you are so it's "private"
>old fashioned police work isn't possible with "anonymity"
Cash transactions are not recorded in an immutable public ledger and yet police are still able to do their job. And the records are not wiped, they're just not on public display. You can always show someone your wallet containing your transaction history but you can't see everyone else's without their permission. This is sensible.
>I created the thing, what would they know
They know what was in the whitepaper and the actual product that was released. It got popular because bitcoin worked. Nobody cared about Satoshi, he was a literal nobody. Even if is Craig was Satoshi, who cares?
>the system is designed to centralize
>ASIC resistance BS
Sources of cheap energy are spread around the world. Renewables like hydro and geothermal are practically free but only produce so much energy at each location. Even cheap coal is generally limited to having a power station within a certain distance before transport becomes cost prohibitive.
Monero's ASIC resistant CPU algorithm further decentralizes in a couple of ways. First, CPUs are already a commodity. They are accessible to everyone at close to the lowest price possible. ASIC makers are generally vertically integrated mining companies that might sell their outdated miners to the public when they're done with them. ASIC sales are also trivially banned (this just happened in China (for real this time)) since they are application specific. China can't ban CPU sales since that would destroy their country.
The nature of everyone already having CPUs means it is usually cost prohibitive to buy CPUs just for the sake of mining. People or datacenters (of which there are many spread around the world) who already own CPUs for other purposes can mine in their downtime for only the cost of electricity. The marginal cost of the CPU for them is $0, while for a full time miner it is the total cost of the computer.
Alright that's enough for now.
Second Video:
I also watched the first 15 minutes of your second video. It's stupid. There's nothing to even rebut, the guy just interprets "hints" from Craig. There were loads of people saying way smarter things about bitcoin long before JULY 2014. Bitcoin had pumped and crashed like three times by then. "he was so reluctant to be known publicly" yeah, I guess that's why he's been self promoting endlessly non stop since that interview. This youtuber must have brain damage.
>anything "illegal" on BSV will put you in jail.
So the satanic pedophiles currently mandating deadly injections can use BSV against me. Awesome.
>"people that commit crime on bitcoin, 20 years later will go to prison"
Seriously look at how things have changed in the last 20 years. People get cancelled for tweets they made years ago. 20 years from now you might get a knock at the door for your purchase of the, now illegal, progesterone hormone.
>I had no interest in the banking system or financial crisis
Strange way to timestamp the genesis block in that case.
>previous "echash" systems being too anonymous was the problem I wanted to solve
Straight up lie. Literally just read the whitepaper. https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
"We propose a solution to the double-spending problem"
Section 10 of the white paper is dedicated to privacy and discusses it in relation to the traditional banking system (and not in relation to any other echash) and implies that privacy is a good thing that bitcoin will have to manage in a different way given its public nature.
And you can look at Satoshi's posts on bitcointalk
Topic: "The goal is to provide all the same security of the existing system, but to avoid creating a public graph of every transaction that is easily correlated."
Satoshi's response: "This is a very interesting topic. If a solution was found, a much better, easier, more convenient implementation of Bitcoin would be possible."
And then he continues on to roughly describe Monero's current features as some potential ideas.
Or look at Hal Finney less than a month after bitcoin's launch "Looking at ways to add more anonymity to bitcoin"
View: https://twitter.com/halfin/status/1136749815
PoW blockchain solved a real problem but the most basic implementation is terrible for privacy. That's why all the smart, early, and REAL people in bitcoin had privacy as a top priority.
>bitcoin does not create wealth because it doesn't create loans
Loans do not create wealth. Loans are created out of thin air. They create liquidity that can get projects moving but at the end of the day it is people doing the work that have created wealth and the "money" they were paid in was created out of thin air at the discretion of a bank.
>micro transactions on chain
>putting random logs on chain
This is completely stupid if you have a basic understanding of blockchains. Nobody has any interest in storing all that garbage data and this is proven by the fact that BSV has less than 100 synced nodes and falling. The system becomes centralized and users are forced to trust third parties to access the chain. The whole purpose is defeated. Bitcoin SV / Node explorer
>the government will be traceable
Obviously the government will not actually adopt BSV so that's a retarded pipe dream. Even if BSV was official currency of all governments, they would still get their black ops done off the books, no different than today.
>"privacy" not anonymity
Basically you are naked in front of the whole world but they probably won't be looking or care who you are so it's "private"
>old fashioned police work isn't possible with "anonymity"
Cash transactions are not recorded in an immutable public ledger and yet police are still able to do their job. And the records are not wiped, they're just not on public display. You can always show someone your wallet containing your transaction history but you can't see everyone else's without their permission. This is sensible.
>I created the thing, what would they know
They know what was in the whitepaper and the actual product that was released. It got popular because bitcoin worked. Nobody cared about Satoshi, he was a literal nobody. Even if is Craig was Satoshi, who cares?
>the system is designed to centralize
>ASIC resistance BS
Sources of cheap energy are spread around the world. Renewables like hydro and geothermal are practically free but only produce so much energy at each location. Even cheap coal is generally limited to having a power station within a certain distance before transport becomes cost prohibitive.
Monero's ASIC resistant CPU algorithm further decentralizes in a couple of ways. First, CPUs are already a commodity. They are accessible to everyone at close to the lowest price possible. ASIC makers are generally vertically integrated mining companies that might sell their outdated miners to the public when they're done with them. ASIC sales are also trivially banned (this just happened in China (for real this time)) since they are application specific. China can't ban CPU sales since that would destroy their country.
The nature of everyone already having CPUs means it is usually cost prohibitive to buy CPUs just for the sake of mining. People or datacenters (of which there are many spread around the world) who already own CPUs for other purposes can mine in their downtime for only the cost of electricity. The marginal cost of the CPU for them is $0, while for a full time miner it is the total cost of the computer.
Alright that's enough for now.
Second Video:
I also watched the first 15 minutes of your second video. It's stupid. There's nothing to even rebut, the guy just interprets "hints" from Craig. There were loads of people saying way smarter things about bitcoin long before JULY 2014. Bitcoin had pumped and crashed like three times by then. "he was so reluctant to be known publicly" yeah, I guess that's why he's been self promoting endlessly non stop since that interview. This youtuber must have brain damage.
Last edited:
There is an inadequate tl;dr for this whole post at the bottom.
Note: I've re-read the bitcoin whitepaper and summarized bits to compare in parallel first for people unaware of what was stated in the original protocol for context when viewing the Monero video.
First thing is first: from the abstract of the bitcoin white paper; what is the purpose of bitcoin?
"A solution to the double-spending problem(1) using a peer-to-peer network...forming a record that cannot be changed without redoing the proof-of-work. (immutable as some call it) The longest chain not only serves as proof of the sequence of events witnessed but the proof that it came from the largest pool of CPU power. As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to attack the network, they'll generate the longest chain and outpace attackers... nodes can leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the longest proof-of-work chains as proof of what happened while they were gone." - https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
Cliff notes from paper to possibly reference:
A.
"mediation... need for trust...merchants... hassle for more info... than would otherwise need...certain percent of fraud is accepted as unavoidable... cost and payment... avoided... using physical currency... need electronic payment system... impractical to reverse... protect sellers... escrow... protect buyers...
) double-spending problem.1"
B.
"digital signature... verify ownership... earliest transaction is the one that counts <Double spend>... awareness of all transactions... mint model ("depends on company running mint... like a bank")."
Note: Want to avoid mint model.
C.
"Timestamp... proves data existed... including previous... stamp... forming a chain."
D.
"Proof-of-Work... SHA-256... blocks chained... work to change block... redoing all the blocks.. One CPU-one-vote... (avoid) ("one-IP-address-one-vote")"...difficulty... average number of blocks per hour... fast... difficulty increases."
E.
"Network... Node collects transaction... accepts... only if all transactions are valid and not already spent... express acceptance of the block... using the hash of the accepted block as the previous hash... switch to the longer branch... (if one is found in the network)."
F.
"Incentive... no central authority to issue (coins into circulation)... funded with transaction fees... incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees and be completely inflation free."
G.
Diskspace… without breaking the blocks hash… merkle tree (2)…interior hashes do not need to be stored.”
H.
"attacker... more CPU... than honest nodes... defraud people by stealing back his payments or using it to generate new coins... He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules."
I.
"Verification... keep copy of black headers... query network nodes... convinced he has the longest chain...see that network... has accepted it... blocks after... confirm network has accepted it."
J.
"Privacy... limit info to... parties involved and the trusted third party... keep public keys anonymous... see (transaction)... (no info) linking transaction to anyone... (like) stock exchanges... "tapes"... new key pair... used for each transaction to keep them from being linked to a common owner."
K.
"Calculations... probability an attacker catching up from a given deficit... probability drops exponentially as number of blocks the attacker has to catch up with increases... less than .1%
L.
"Conclusion... Nodes work all at once with little coordination... do not need to be identified..."
1 Double spending problem: Risk that a digital currency can be spent twice.
Double-Spending
2 Merkle trees: “hierarchical data structures that enable secure verification of collections of data… primary function… verify that some data packet… is a member of a list or set of… data packets… verification… merkle proof ( merkle path… is the minimum list of hashes required to reconstruct the root… performed if all packets are known to the prover.”
https://craigwright.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/On-Merkle-Trees_CSW.pdf
craigwright.net
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Here's what I've learned from the Monero Video:
2:39; private cryptocurrency.
3:38: cryptocurrency = "digital asset to work as a medium of exchange using cryptography (signatures) to secure transactions... control creation of additional units of the currency."
Opinion Note: using cryptography, not cryptographic.
8:00; defines bitcoins aim: Trustless (no mint), permissionless (anyone can use), decentralized (un-boundable amount of nodes)
11:23; claims bitcoin is not permissionless. yes. Transactions can be freezed, and the use can be regulated by ones corresponding country.
12:04; mining is concentrated in china.
Opinion Note: Yes. We want centralization of mining because those with higher hash power, have more assets. This is why we want larger block sizes. Its requires more assets to compete: Assets that can be seized in cases of foul play/stealing of money, and less incentive to rewrite blocks. Because block chain can be audited, we are allowed to forever be able to look back, scrutinize, and hold accountable anyone on the BSV chain.
12:28 Merchants will know all the contents of your wallet by your financial history/How much money you’ve ever had, and used.
Opinion Note: Yes, reference J. Cited above.
This is partially true: “As an additional firewall, a new key pair should be used for each transaction to keep them from being linked to a common owner. Some linking is still unavoidable with multi-input transactions, which necessarily reveal that their inputs were owned by the same owner. The risk is that if the owner of a key is revealed, linking could reveal other transactions that belonged to the same owner.”- https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
My extrapolated opinion/concept:
The thing is though, is that these mediums of exchange aren’t meant to be kept consistently in the same wallet. You just make a new wallet when you’re done with it every so often, and put money into it from your bank account.. which isn’t tracked by the chain, but your identity is verified to access an exchange. Even to purchase Monero. Preventing the use of Monero = prevention of the use of a chain which uses tech to hide transactions which aren’t necessary versus just obtaining a new wallet every once in a while using other options. Like changing your password.
Do you hold all of your money in your physical wallet? If someone stole your wallet, would they know your identity? yes. With a digital wallet, not necessarily. Would they have access to your money? yes. All the physical money in your wallet. In your bank account? Yes, if they have your debit card and pin. With a digital wallet? no. there is no debit card, nor pin in the wallet.
You can even exchange a wallet with someone to track where they spend the money in the wallet, or withdraw it. It’s a feature: not a flaw and part of the use case for people who live in places like impoverished places for wives to ensure their husbands spend money on school books rather than alcohol for example.
"Your keys in Bitcoin do not provide proof of ownership or identity. At best, keys may be associated with possession. a signature is not the writing of a person’s Christian name and surname but some mark which identifies it as resulting from the act of the party." -CSW
13:30 (BTC is slow)
Opinion Note: YES. BTC is extremely slow, because it doesn’t scale like BSV; the original protocol, which has been shown to be able to fulfill thousands of transactions per second.
15:52: Main focuses of Monero: cannot be banned from its use, or censored, also uses POW (Proof of Work), and doesn’t reveal how much money each other possesses: Behaves like cash, and untraceable; Like e-cash and what other crypto-anarchists wanted.
Personal/Future note: CSW has stated before that he was going to break Montero and Ecash, making it traceable in 2019, and I have yet to see an attempt, or how.
The IRS has published a 625K bounty to break Montero and lightning as well apparently. Interesting stuff.
“Currently, there are limited investigative resources for tracing transactions involving privacy cryptocurrency coins such as Monero, Layer 2 network protocol transactions such as Lightning Labs, or other off-chain transactions that provide privacy to illicit actors.” SAM.gov
17:57: Monero provides infinite mining rewards as inflation which increases with demand to process transactions.
Opinion note: we don’t want this inflation.
20:04: bitcoin coins that have been illegally used can be reversed preventing double spends, and wallets can be frozen. Monero does not allow this, allowing illegal activities to occur.
22:11: stealth addresses: public addresses that people can send money to that transactions are sent through, but is not tracked on the block chain. A new address is generated with the transaction that was sent instead.
22:48 Ring signature: dont just include senders coin, but decoy coins as well. interesting
23:00 - 27:00 mechanisms of privacy
31:30 Monero max as of then measured at 1700 TPS.
32:00 currency needs to work on an interplanetary scale. Monero will need to continue to evolve to work in this way.
Opinion: No comment from BSV side. Have no idea yet of the implications.
I skipped the questions for sake of time, but if you want to discuss something from the comments, I’d love to hear more.
Criticisms:
9,000 Transactions Per Second: New BSV Record -9,000 Transactions Per Second: New BSV Record - Bitcoin Association
TLDR:
Just use a different wallet. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Sacrifice traceability of individual payments for prevention of illegal activities by the general public.
I would consider this a much more versatile version of cash, but overall disruptive to society, sacrificing the trust aspect established by bitcoin. “Privacy is a right, anonymity is not. ” -CSW
Note: I've re-read the bitcoin whitepaper and summarized bits to compare in parallel first for people unaware of what was stated in the original protocol for context when viewing the Monero video.
First thing is first: from the abstract of the bitcoin white paper; what is the purpose of bitcoin?
"A solution to the double-spending problem(1) using a peer-to-peer network...forming a record that cannot be changed without redoing the proof-of-work. (immutable as some call it) The longest chain not only serves as proof of the sequence of events witnessed but the proof that it came from the largest pool of CPU power. As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to attack the network, they'll generate the longest chain and outpace attackers... nodes can leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the longest proof-of-work chains as proof of what happened while they were gone." - https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
Cliff notes from paper to possibly reference:
A.
"mediation... need for trust...merchants... hassle for more info... than would otherwise need...certain percent of fraud is accepted as unavoidable... cost and payment... avoided... using physical currency... need electronic payment system... impractical to reverse... protect sellers... escrow... protect buyers...
) double-spending problem.1"B.
"digital signature... verify ownership... earliest transaction is the one that counts <Double spend>... awareness of all transactions... mint model ("depends on company running mint... like a bank")."
Note: Want to avoid mint model.
C.
"Timestamp... proves data existed... including previous... stamp... forming a chain."
D.
"Proof-of-Work... SHA-256... blocks chained... work to change block... redoing all the blocks.. One CPU-one-vote... (avoid) ("one-IP-address-one-vote")"...difficulty... average number of blocks per hour... fast... difficulty increases."
E.
"Network... Node collects transaction... accepts... only if all transactions are valid and not already spent... express acceptance of the block... using the hash of the accepted block as the previous hash... switch to the longer branch... (if one is found in the network)."
F.
"Incentive... no central authority to issue (coins into circulation)... funded with transaction fees... incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees and be completely inflation free."
G.
Diskspace… without breaking the blocks hash… merkle tree (2)…interior hashes do not need to be stored.”
H.
"attacker... more CPU... than honest nodes... defraud people by stealing back his payments or using it to generate new coins... He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules."
I.
"Verification... keep copy of black headers... query network nodes... convinced he has the longest chain...see that network... has accepted it... blocks after... confirm network has accepted it."
J.
"Privacy... limit info to... parties involved and the trusted third party... keep public keys anonymous... see (transaction)... (no info) linking transaction to anyone... (like) stock exchanges... "tapes"... new key pair... used for each transaction to keep them from being linked to a common owner."
K.
"Calculations... probability an attacker catching up from a given deficit... probability drops exponentially as number of blocks the attacker has to catch up with increases... less than .1%
L.
"Conclusion... Nodes work all at once with little coordination... do not need to be identified..."
1 Double spending problem: Risk that a digital currency can be spent twice.
Double-Spending
2 Merkle trees: “hierarchical data structures that enable secure verification of collections of data… primary function… verify that some data packet… is a member of a list or set of… data packets… verification… merkle proof (
merkle path… is the minimum list of hashes required to reconstruct the root… performed if all packets are known to the prover.”https://craigwright.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/On-Merkle-Trees_CSW.pdf
Merkle Trees and SPV
Merkle Trees By now, it should be well understood that Bitcoin utilises the concept of a Merkle tree to its
craigwright.net
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Here's what I've learned from the Monero Video:
2:39; private cryptocurrency.
3:38: cryptocurrency = "digital asset to work as a medium of exchange using cryptography (signatures) to secure transactions... control creation of additional units of the currency."
Opinion Note: using cryptography, not cryptographic.
8:00; defines bitcoins aim: Trustless (no mint), permissionless (anyone can use), decentralized (un-boundable amount of nodes)
11:23; claims bitcoin is not permissionless. yes. Transactions can be freezed, and the use can be regulated by ones corresponding country.
12:04; mining is concentrated in china.
Opinion Note: Yes. We want centralization of mining because those with higher hash power, have more assets. This is why we want larger block sizes. Its requires more assets to compete: Assets that can be seized in cases of foul play/stealing of money, and less incentive to rewrite blocks. Because block chain can be audited, we are allowed to forever be able to look back, scrutinize, and hold accountable anyone on the BSV chain.
12:28 Merchants will know all the contents of your wallet by your financial history/How much money you’ve ever had, and used.
Opinion Note: Yes, reference J. Cited above.
This is partially true: “As an additional firewall, a new key pair should be used for each transaction to keep them from being linked to a common owner. Some linking is still unavoidable with multi-input transactions, which necessarily reveal that their inputs were owned by the same owner. The risk is that if the owner of a key is revealed, linking could reveal other transactions that belonged to the same owner.”- https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
My extrapolated opinion/concept:
The thing is though, is that these mediums of exchange aren’t meant to be kept consistently in the same wallet. You just make a new wallet when you’re done with it every so often, and put money into it from your bank account.. which isn’t tracked by the chain, but your identity is verified to access an exchange. Even to purchase Monero. Preventing the use of Monero = prevention of the use of a chain which uses tech to hide transactions which aren’t necessary versus just obtaining a new wallet every once in a while using other options. Like changing your password.
Do you hold all of your money in your physical wallet? If someone stole your wallet, would they know your identity? yes. With a digital wallet, not necessarily. Would they have access to your money? yes. All the physical money in your wallet. In your bank account? Yes, if they have your debit card and pin. With a digital wallet? no. there is no debit card, nor pin in the wallet.
You can even exchange a wallet with someone to track where they spend the money in the wallet, or withdraw it. It’s a feature: not a flaw and part of the use case for people who live in places like impoverished places for wives to ensure their husbands spend money on school books rather than alcohol for example.
"Your keys in Bitcoin do not provide proof of ownership or identity. At best, keys may be associated with possession. a signature is not the writing of a person’s Christian name and surname but some mark which identifies it as resulting from the act of the party." -CSW
13:30 (BTC is slow)
Opinion Note: YES. BTC is extremely slow, because it doesn’t scale like BSV; the original protocol, which has been shown to be able to fulfill thousands of transactions per second.
15:52: Main focuses of Monero: cannot be banned from its use, or censored, also uses POW (Proof of Work), and doesn’t reveal how much money each other possesses: Behaves like cash, and untraceable; Like e-cash and what other crypto-anarchists wanted.
Personal/Future note: CSW has stated before that he was going to break Montero and Ecash, making it traceable in 2019, and I have yet to see an attempt, or how.
The IRS has published a 625K bounty to break Montero and lightning as well apparently. Interesting stuff.
“Currently, there are limited investigative resources for tracing transactions involving privacy cryptocurrency coins such as Monero, Layer 2 network protocol transactions such as Lightning Labs, or other off-chain transactions that provide privacy to illicit actors.” SAM.gov
17:57: Monero provides infinite mining rewards as inflation which increases with demand to process transactions.
Opinion note: we don’t want this inflation.
20:04: bitcoin coins that have been illegally used can be reversed preventing double spends, and wallets can be frozen. Monero does not allow this, allowing illegal activities to occur.
22:11: stealth addresses: public addresses that people can send money to that transactions are sent through, but is not tracked on the block chain. A new address is generated with the transaction that was sent instead.
22:48 Ring signature: dont just include senders coin, but decoy coins as well. interesting
23:00 - 27:00 mechanisms of privacy
31:30 Monero max as of then measured at 1700 TPS.
32:00 currency needs to work on an interplanetary scale. Monero will need to continue to evolve to work in this way.
Opinion: No comment from BSV side. Have no idea yet of the implications.
I skipped the questions for sake of time, but if you want to discuss something from the comments, I’d love to hear more.
Criticisms:
9,000 Transactions Per Second: New BSV Record -9,000 Transactions Per Second: New BSV Record - Bitcoin Association
TLDR:
Just use a different wallet. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Sacrifice traceability of individual payments for prevention of illegal activities by the general public.
I would consider this a much more versatile version of cash, but overall disruptive to society, sacrificing the trust aspect established by bitcoin. “Privacy is a right, anonymity is not. ” -CSW
Is there something wrong with being narcissistic? I think majority of very rich and/or very successful people are. He has identified himself as someone with Aspergers publicly. I don’t see any harm in recognizing that considering he does have many traits associated with Aspergers; validating a lot of the hate as I’d stated before. People with Aspergers are disliked and misunderstood by a lot of neuro-typicals. I’ve seen a lot of name calling, and claims, but no actual evidence for him being a bad person. Mostly, I’ve just seen telephone: people listening to other people speak badly about him, and then believing it rather than actually listening to his talks directly and learning about the technology.
this is just extra I wanted to post:
A bit on segwit/inflation:
BTC uses segwit; removing cryptographic signature data. Damaging the coin economics: (the core of information security) and "creating a double Merkel tree structure larger than the native bitcoin blockchain, taking up more space. Miners won't be able to prune information as it will be required under the laws of most countries"
*”The concept of side chains is about infinite inflation... Each side-chain becomes an infinitely scalable resource. If you need more money, print more with a side-chain...” -CSW Craig Wright on Segwit < defeating the purpose of the limited maximum quantity of bitcoin. "Changing the limited supply of Bitcoin would be incoherent with the Bitcoin contractual offer that Satoshi has made to the world." -Why Bitcoin’s supply is limited - CoinGeek
“Bitcoin is a contract… creates mutual obligations…unilateral… anyone who is willing to accept and fulfill the terms… enforcing the bitcoin rules (validating transactions, creating blocks).” “…as long as the rules of Bitcoin, the basic protocol does not change, I am bound under a unilateral contract to the nodes, acting as agents within the system.” “Since SegWit was implemented, BTC nodes stopped enforcing the Bitcoin rules according to the whitepaper as well as the Bitcoin website from 2008 and the end-user license agreement (EULA) in the original Bitcoin software (which are, as a mixture, the content/basis of the Bitcoin contract).” “ This is different in BTC/SegWit though. When SegWit was implemented, which means an issuance and distribution of a new digital asset, BTC/SegWit-Coin already traded at a very high valuation.
"If you issue a billion-dollar worth of coins, you have an issue. And this issue is: taxes.” <Theres a video you can watch on this topic found on this page, and the above-cited page as well(> Bitcoin is bound under contract - CoinGeek <“I set the protocol in stone so that there wouldn’t be any voting on anything other than on honesty.”
A bit on segwit/inflation:
BTC uses segwit; removing cryptographic signature data. Damaging the coin economics: (the core of information security) and "creating a double Merkel tree structure larger than the native bitcoin blockchain, taking up more space. Miners won't be able to prune information as it will be required under the laws of most countries"
*”The concept of side chains is about infinite inflation... Each side-chain becomes an infinitely scalable resource. If you need more money, print more with a side-chain...” -CSW Craig Wright on Segwit < defeating the purpose of the limited maximum quantity of bitcoin. "Changing the limited supply of Bitcoin would be incoherent with the Bitcoin contractual offer that Satoshi has made to the world." -Why Bitcoin’s supply is limited - CoinGeek
“Bitcoin is a contract… creates mutual obligations…unilateral… anyone who is willing to accept and fulfill the terms… enforcing the bitcoin rules (validating transactions, creating blocks).” “…as long as the rules of Bitcoin, the basic protocol does not change, I am bound under a unilateral contract to the nodes, acting as agents within the system.” “Since SegWit was implemented, BTC nodes stopped enforcing the Bitcoin rules according to the whitepaper as well as the Bitcoin website from 2008 and the end-user license agreement (EULA) in the original Bitcoin software (which are, as a mixture, the content/basis of the Bitcoin contract).” “ This is different in BTC/SegWit though. When SegWit was implemented, which means an issuance and distribution of a new digital asset, BTC/SegWit-Coin already traded at a very high valuation.
"If you issue a billion-dollar worth of coins, you have an issue. And this issue is: taxes.” <Theres a video you can watch on this topic found on this page, and the above-cited page as well(> Bitcoin is bound under contract - CoinGeek <“I set the protocol in stone so that there wouldn’t be any voting on anything other than on honesty.”
Awesome. Okay. going to start reading this.
Yes. Narcissist as in Narcissistic personality disorder. A sociopath. You only need to watch him for a few minutes to diagnose it. It's not Aspergers lol.
Ilegal misinformation; what is that?
edit: is that a reference to 1984? haha
Okay. We want to escape the current system by taking money out of circulation, and using it without being auditable, taxable, etc.
>anything "illegal" on BSV will put you in jail.
Just do illegal things on monero, and legal things on BSV then.
Seriously look at how things have changed in the last 20 years. People get cancelled for tweets they made years ago. 20 years from now you might get a knock at the door for your purchase of the, now illegal, progesterone hormone.
Progesterone is illegal now? Or is that a metaphor? Can I get more info on that? Can’t seem to find anything with a quick search.
"We propose a solution to the double-spending problem”
I think I’ve addressed this in my previous post with the difference being between privacy and anonymity. I can add more if you want.
Topic: "The goal is to provide all the same security of the existing system, but to avoid creating a public graph of every transaction that is easily correlated."
Satoshi's response: "This is a very interesting topic. If a solution was found, a much better, easier, more convenient implementation of Bitcoin would be possible."
We can’t prove who said this either way, or if other people within the team had access to this account. We do know that there were “Crypto-Anarchists” amongst the original team looking for things like e-cash.
yes. Part of the concept that was Monero was contemplated, and then... We have Segwit now, which led to all the forking.
>bitcoin does not create wealth because it doesn't create loans
This is more of an issue with definitions. Wealth, is control of capital in Craig’s eyes, not absolute amounts of monies necessarily as far as I understand it. Loans are used with the condition to acquire capital that can be seized by banks.
>micro transactions on chain
Did you not get to comment on this topic, or is this just addressed later?
two claims are made here:
Nobody has any interest in storing all that garbage data and this is proven by the fact that BSV has less than 100 synced nodes and falling. The system becomes centralized and users are forced to trust third parties to access the chain. The whole purpose is defeated. Bitcoin SV / Node explorer
Claim 1: putting random logs on chain. Microtransactions?
Claim 2: centralization is bad. Ive addressed this before. We want companies that can be held accountable rather than anonymous individuals.
>Government will be traceable
I dont have any opinion at the moment on this claim
>Privacy and anonymity claim again
Just make a new wallet
>I created the thing, what would they know
Yeah. It doesn’t matter if he was or wasn’t. What matters is the knowledge provided.
>the system is designed to centralize
>ASIC resistance BS
Do you really want to rely on a system where miners can outright re-arrange blocks, and none of it is traced? Is there something stopping powerhouses from building massive farms that can outcompete these decentralized systems?
Or do I have a misunderstanding? I've spent quite a long time responding in total.
Second Video:
Yes. It is just interpretations based on time-line to get a better understanding of the time frame of when things happened and how.
Also, I don’t understand what the issue is with having a change of mind or heart as stated in the second video. He didn’t want attention, felt like media was just toxic and misunderstanding, and then people decided to try and get in touch with people close to him, and he decided he didn’t like it. Then, as time passed, he decided he didn’t care, and was needed to help the education process for people to learn and understand these points you’ve brought up.
There is a lot to cover for a lot of people, so he exists for cliff-notes, and establishment of context.
“There were loads of people saying way smarter things about bitcoin long before JULY 2014.”
I don't think that was the point. The point was that he was the only one to ascertain such a critical point about bitcoin at that timee: Bitcoin is Turing complete. And he explained why, in a way that hadn’t been talked about before through looping, which he had written a paper on. (unless you can find earlier proof from someone else)
edit: is that a reference to 1984? haha
Okay. We want to escape the current system by taking money out of circulation, and using it without being auditable, taxable, etc.
>anything "illegal" on BSV will put you in jail.
Just do illegal things on monero, and legal things on BSV then.
Seriously look at how things have changed in the last 20 years. People get cancelled for tweets they made years ago. 20 years from now you might get a knock at the door for your purchase of the, now illegal, progesterone hormone.
Progesterone is illegal now? Or is that a metaphor? Can I get more info on that? Can’t seem to find anything with a quick search.
"We propose a solution to the double-spending problem”
I think I’ve addressed this in my previous post with the difference being between privacy and anonymity. I can add more if you want.
Topic: "The goal is to provide all the same security of the existing system, but to avoid creating a public graph of every transaction that is easily correlated."
Satoshi's response: "This is a very interesting topic. If a solution was found, a much better, easier, more convenient implementation of Bitcoin would be possible."
We can’t prove who said this either way, or if other people within the team had access to this account. We do know that there were “Crypto-Anarchists” amongst the original team looking for things like e-cash.
yes. Part of the concept that was Monero was contemplated, and then... We have Segwit now, which led to all the forking.
>bitcoin does not create wealth because it doesn't create loans
This is more of an issue with definitions. Wealth, is control of capital in Craig’s eyes, not absolute amounts of monies necessarily as far as I understand it. Loans are used with the condition to acquire capital that can be seized by banks.
>micro transactions on chain
Did you not get to comment on this topic, or is this just addressed later?
two claims are made here:
Nobody has any interest in storing all that garbage data and this is proven by the fact that BSV has less than 100 synced nodes and falling. The system becomes centralized and users are forced to trust third parties to access the chain. The whole purpose is defeated. Bitcoin SV / Node explorer
Claim 1: putting random logs on chain. Microtransactions?
Claim 2: centralization is bad. Ive addressed this before. We want companies that can be held accountable rather than anonymous individuals.
>Government will be traceable
I dont have any opinion at the moment on this claim
>Privacy and anonymity claim again
Just make a new wallet
>I created the thing, what would they know
Yeah. It doesn’t matter if he was or wasn’t. What matters is the knowledge provided.
>the system is designed to centralize
>ASIC resistance BS
Do you really want to rely on a system where miners can outright re-arrange blocks, and none of it is traced? Is there something stopping powerhouses from building massive farms that can outcompete these decentralized systems?
Or do I have a misunderstanding? I've spent quite a long time responding in total.
Second Video:
Yes. It is just interpretations based on time-line to get a better understanding of the time frame of when things happened and how.
Also, I don’t understand what the issue is with having a change of mind or heart as stated in the second video. He didn’t want attention, felt like media was just toxic and misunderstanding, and then people decided to try and get in touch with people close to him, and he decided he didn’t like it. Then, as time passed, he decided he didn’t care, and was needed to help the education process for people to learn and understand these points you’ve brought up.
There is a lot to cover for a lot of people, so he exists for cliff-notes, and establishment of context.
“There were loads of people saying way smarter things about bitcoin long before JULY 2014.”
I don't think that was the point. The point was that he was the only one to ascertain such a critical point about bitcoin at that timee: Bitcoin is Turing complete. And he explained why, in a way that hadn’t been talked about before through looping, which he had written a paper on. (unless you can find earlier proof from someone else)
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People with Aspergers can be sociopaths too.
I don't diagnose people: I just believe them, and then audit since I'm not a psychologist. I'm definitely interested in psychology however.
I think partially Aspergers can be induced and made more intense just by placing people into an environment without other people over time. Possibly implications in brain inactivation from over-exposure to screens. Don't know if it's the same for books.
ValeryZeSpanich
Member
Isn't the value of cryptocurrencies too volatile to be used on a large scale? Besides, is its value based on anything other than speculation and "illegal" markets (typically the dark net)?
Hey Bidule, just commented on your other thread.
I'm going to take a break from the forum for a bit.
These are some very fundamental, and yes, very important questions that are answered in the videos I've posted, and have also been talked about on prior pages... I'm pretty sure. A lot has been gone over so far.
My main gist summary would be:
Medium of exchange = my $ -> my Coin -> your Coin minus .1 cent -> your $
A coin is just a way to transfer money. Its job is not to be money itself. It's a versatile way of accounting for the exchange of money, and a tool that allows complex ways of payment through things known as smart contracts: allowing people to pay others by the hour, rent cars from friends, and much more.
The Values are definitely speculation. HODLing Crypto is speculative gambling as far as I'm concerned, and yes, things "Pump" higher because it's all a Ponzi scheme other than the BSV coin. (HODL = Holding on for Dear Life)
If people actually cared about whatever crypto they used, they wouldn't be focusing on trading it. They'd focus on using it for its supposed purposes. The majority don't.
ValeryZeSpanich
Member
yes i just saw
yes i just saw
So, if I understood correctly, you would have to keep conventional currencies for savings and use crypto on an ad hoc basis, for trading.
Pulling words out of the paper as if at random, stripping the context is pointless. Something a lunatic like Craig would do.
Defeats the purpose. Use PayPal in this case.
In this case, use Alipay.
No one wants this. I could get into the myriad of reasons this could harm you but why bother. No one wants it.
If your financial system relies on another financial system to function properly, what is the point?
Not if it was just a wallet containing cash, no. And importantly, they would not be able to see the history of where I got that cash and where I spent it.
If someone hacked your computer to steal your crypto, they would very likely have access to identity information too.
Crypto is stolen more regularly than fiat. Are you implying it can't be stolen?
You do actually but the main thing you probably don't realize is how miniscule XMR inflation is compared to any other money. For example above ground gold supply inflates at about 3% per year. That's exponential growth. More fiat can be created at any time and in unlimited amounts. Monero has a set linear inflation starting at less than 1% and perpetually falling in percentage terms.
No BTC transactions have ever been reversed to my knowledge. BSV may be different but that's nothing to brag about.
Countries are not going to police your blockchain for you. To the extent they care about a money that's not theirs they would outlaw it. If you want state oversight, use state money. I can't emphasize enough how illogical it is to make a new system outside of the state that is still intended to be compliant with the state and even reliant on it. There is no advantage over just using state systems.
Anti-vax on youtube? Banned. Anti-vax doctor? Fired. People are being arrested for things like "inciting" peaceful protests, which at it's heart is spreading information.
It's not about "illegal" things, it's doing what you have to do. Current example is people need to order some drug online for their health which is illegal in their country. Monero makes that possible. Looking at the way things are progressing with vaccine mandates, passports, and talk of CBDCs, I can easily imagine a world where a lot more things become impossible without an alternative currency like Monero. Legal things can be done with legal currency. There is no reason for BSV to exist as a medium of exchange for legal things.
An example of something that could be made illegal or inaccessible in the future. A recent real example is this October, Australia made nicotine vape products illegal to import without a prescription. If you've been around long enough you will have seen many supplements relegated to the grey or black market.
No, the point there was that in the video Craig was lying. It is very clear in the whitepaper, the problem bitcoin was created to address. Furthermore it never said anything about the lack of traceability in previous ecash implementations. Craig Wright is a liar. It's important to know this.
Satoshi said this. Regardless of whether Satoshi was a team, Satoshi said that. It only hurts Craig's credibility to be in direct opposition to his supposed identity.
Yes, he gave an example of computer admin logs being uploaded and stored on the blockchain. Microtransactions are the transactions under 1c he was talking about.
We have those companies already. They're known as PayPal, MasterCard, and Visa.
Besides the hassle, you would have to leave money behind in many wallets. Money sent to a new wallet is trivially traced.
Yes, there is something stopping them, it's the entire game theory that bitcoin has run on successfully for more than a decade. Proof of Work.
"I am going to come in front of a camera once. And I will never, ever be on the camera ever again for any TV station."
Yeah, that was some change of heart.
I'm talking about his quote from 2014 that the youtuber views as unparalleled foresight, when in fact it is just a bunch of nonsense.
4:50 - "Bitcoin is basically the the future of everything. I'm not talking money, I'm talking everything. It comes from the idea of merging a number of cryptographic protocols with a 2005 published idea of a triple entry ledger. What that enables is a way, a means of creating not only smart currency but a means of tracking and registering anything that can exist."
Most people viewing this thread don't have time to read everything all the time, so I figured I'd make it easier to help point in the direction things came from.
Yes. it did take a lot of effort, and yes, I think it's worthwhile for people to briefly parse to understand what we're talking about rather than reading 8 pages. If they want to read it, I cited it.
Paypal, and Alipay don't fulfill the same services as BSV to society.
^ Make a new wallet so people don't track your transactions. It's a very simple concept. I thought my password example was pretty good.
I think part of your argument is that you think that people will be able to put all their money on monero... which shouldn't be done. Monero is not a store of value, nor is the control of the protocol actually under control by the people. It literally fluctuates as people buy and sell it. It's a medium of exchange. Not Currency.
The goal is not to print our own money. It's to put it through an honest, dynamic system. We can't just rip the government out of society in the same way that we cant remove the nervous system from our bodies. It's required to manage things; it just has too much power at the moment because we lack an auditable system of checks and balances that goes beyond just money.
when you answered my wallet excerpt, you are using a straw man. I already answered that hypothetically in the post. I agree with you because Id already stated what you did in a different example.
are you talking about miners?
yes. Any crypto that is not BSV/ doesn't use POW (proof of work) is liable to be hacked, and, or have the whole economy pulled out from under them because someone has control of said protocol. I've explained the need for centralization and assets that can be seized etc, already.
I agree that Moneros inflation is better than traditional fiat,
I still disagree that we want it.
"Inflation is harmful to the value of their productivity. “Without an increase in productivity, additional money has a negative effect,” he notes. “There is the same amount of goods and services in society, there simply is more money competing for the same goods and services.” -CSW
Dr. Craig Wright explains how trade balances, inflation affect value
With trade balances and inflation being in the news, Dr. Wright sets out again to correct some fallacies.
coingeek.com
I'm just restating what your guy said.
Yes, they will. In the same way that they police other payment services. That's part of the point of the centralization bit I spoke about because it IS their money. It's not separate money. It's all tracked and taxed accordingly.
You are placing importance on new money rather than the functionality provided.
The whole point of blockchain and BSV tech is not to print money.
Why we have this problem, is because we are dealing with authoritarians.
People who have overt control within mediums of exchange (Data/info) that are not held accountable, and where opensource alternatives are not lucrative for the people who are actually doing all the work: the creators. BSV allows for the solving of this by people using the programming to build their own replicable versions.
It is unnecessary if people were just honest, and the power of money was taken away from the people at the top because the people choose to use BSV, voting with their money.
I agree, yes, there are bad regulations around drugs, but that's a regulation problem because of big pharma. The big pharma problem needs to be fixed more than the temporary attainment of these drugs: That free's up the ability to attain whatever we want in the future. How? The aforementioned paragraph.
Continue to use Monero technology for those specific cases then, but that is not the long-term solution.
Yeah, I agree that that sucks.
Australia is owned by China now though and has been slowly taken over from the south side. Want to say I'd read about them purchasing an airfield and flying people in? It sucks.
>previous "echash" systems being too anonymous was the problem I wanted to solve
"Straight up lie. Literally just read the whitepaper." https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
"We propose a solution to the double-spending problem"
"Section 10 of the white paper is dedicated to privacy and discusses it in relation to the traditional banking system (and not in relation to any other echash) and implies that privacy is a good thing that bitcoin will have to manage in a different way given its public nature."
The privacy is through the wallet. It does solve the problem, you just don't understand the wallet concept, and getting a new wallet because you're looking at the technology hoping for an alternative to the federal reserve, and Mint. Blockchain is just the feedback loop that feeds information back to the top so it can make better decisions because it's guided to by the people.
As for ecash history, I don't know, nor care. I do know that Craig has spent more time in that area than I have so I take his word for it. If the history of the traceability of ecash becomes relevant, then I'll look into it.
I think things all the time and change my mind. I also have access to friends' accounts for work purposes. It only hurts his credibility if you actively choose to limit your perspective. As far as we know, that wasn't even satoshi the entire time. I don't care to look too deeply into things like that since we can't confirm anything. I prefer to look more at the knowledge provided, timelines, and practicality of use; vision. And its not against his supposed identity regardless.
I do accept that at some point in time, someone possibly apart of the team had thoughts about this. We already addressed this though; we have segwit, and all the problems that come with it. The original protocol doesn't use anything like monero on it.
Ah. storing data on the blockchain.
That's the whole point of the meta-net. Something to sit over the internet for our benefit to access all the dynamic contracts and things provided by BSV.
Microtransactions are critical to ensure the flow of volume and to provide the versatility of restoring honesty to the internet, disincentivizing bad actors.
For example, what if it cost me 20 cents to say what I had to say to you? It's more likely that I'm not only taking the time, but I'm putting physical money where my mouth is, telling you, I'm not lying, and incentivizing people to do things other than spamming, etc.
have you checked out agora.icu ?
Then withdraw it and put it into a new wallet?
Proof of work dictates that those with the most CPU power win. The smaller the block size, the easier it is to complete a block.
Yeah. He said that, and then had a change of heart, and is now spreading education on all the topics revolving around BSV as I stated before. People can change opinions based on context.
He hasn't been on any TV stations since then either as far as I know. He has been in videos for conferences and stuff like that, however.
It's not nonsense. I understand it, and you can too if you'd watched the videos with an open mind.
Everything. Ever. Will exist on BSV. Data analytics. Accountability.
Future civilizations will use this verified information to have a new understanding of history unlike we do. No longer will the winner write the history that it wants: the winner will write all of the histories instead in parallel.
In the same way that people take their history/religion with them to colonize areas, we can do the same with planets using something like this. that contains the history and mechanisms of everything, pruned to the absolute necessity while also meeting legal standards. (something the Monero speaker had talked about).
This is why I talk about the importance of Craig's background, and perspective; this is not a money problem he is solving, but a core humanity, and civilization itself problem. He doesn't have to be the best computer scientist, he just has the right questions to ask and answer himself and with the original team to form the best solution rather than an extremely advanced one like all the other competition is trying to do.
The perspective and openness are critical to even begin the thought to attempt to try and understand and create something like this.
So when you name call/label, insult, and point the finger, I just want you to know that you are doing a disservice, not to me, nor Craig or anyone else, but to yourself.
I appreciate the discourse, but I refuse to continue unless we can talk on less hostile ground where I'm not inferred to be a lunatic.
You are so far off the mark and completely miss simple points. Just stop thinking about crypto at all. You are wasting your own and others time. Your brain has been destroyed by listening to con-artists and retards. You need a few years to just forget that crap and start from scratch. I'm not trying to be mean, this is sincere.
jnklheimer
Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2021
- Messages
- 356
the best use case imo is "price go up"
Why are you saying this, when you haven't even come to the understanding of what this is all supposed to solve? You've just avoided my answers and hid behind insults.
I've learned way more from digging myself than this conversation. Why are you so personally invested?
Give me one line I don't understand.
that's not the point: it's the use itself.
that's the brainwashing I'm talking about with why anything other than BSV is to our detriment. It's just mis-teachings of the core principles.
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Purpose:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYskRI0ynAM
More Background history/info:
gavinlucas22.medium.com
Corresponding video covering the content within the link above:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZyidqP20Xs
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYskRI0ynAM
More Background history/info:
gavinlucas22 – Medium
Read writing from gavinlucas22 on Medium. Every day, gavinlucas22 and thousands of other voices read, write, and share important stories on Medium.
gavinlucas22.medium.com
Corresponding video covering the content within the link above:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZyidqP20Xs
EMF Mitigation - Flush Niacin - Big 5 Minerals
