Both Conservatives And Liberals Are Narcissistic, Former Are Entitled Latter Are Insecure

[haidut]

I am wondering if there could be companies out there that don’t require such driven and aggressive people as leaders? Check out this crazy cool company in Brazil:

How to run a company with (almost) no rules

Cool. Is this the company where there are no manager but only engineers who vote on priorities for projects, as well as salaries, and company structure changes?

 

[haidut]

Narcissism is a coping mechanism for the terror of animal insignificance and death.

Then why does it become pathological only in some people? I guess it is natural to see yourself as somewhat central to the world, but there is pretty solid line dividing the mostly benign "attention seeking" from pathological narcissism that often leads to terrorizing others.
If it was a coping mechanism for fear of insignificance/death then shouldn't be present universally, even in children?

 

[lollipop]

Cool. Is this the company where there are no manager but only engineers who vote on priorities for projects, as well as salaries, and company structure changes?

I think so. Pretty enlightened thinking. He talks about how people working for them decide their hours, the office they go into, their salaries - a computer in lunch room where they can look up comparable salaries for same job in other companies AND the full financial position of the company to decide if what they want to receive as a salary is doable and reasonable.

 

[haidut]

I wonder in what sense you consider narcissism to be "non-existant" in children? As far as I know most psychologists consider narcissism to be a result of retarded emotional maturation due insecure attachment during early childhood. Children believe that the world revolves around them and that they are the cause of everything that happens, a belief that narcissists retain on a subconscious level.

The other aspect of narcissism is the constant need for validation and inaility to empathize with others due to a constant pre-occupation with oneself, which I'm not sure if that applies to all children or only insecurely attached ones, but the general worldview of children would seem to be very narcissistic.

Also psychopathy and narcissism are considered to have very different orgins. I agree that narcissists are generally hypothyroid, probably because of the high chronic stress generated by their deep-seated emotional insecurity. Psychopaths on the other hand generally have very low stress levels and higher than average thyroid function.

Narcissism is officially a subset of the psychopathic personality disorder. I think the former is considered just a milder version of the latter and if the circumstances do not change for the individual they tend to become psychopaths. If children are well-reared in a non-stressful environment, with enough both maternal and paternal love then it is highly unlikely to develop such a disorder. It is also hard to diagnose narcissism/psychopathy in children because they do not understand many of the questions that are being asked to evaluate their personality. This ability to think a bit like an adult starts to form around puberty. So, for now research on children focuses on observing their empathy or the lack thereof. I am not saying children cannot be narcissistic, just that they are much less likely to be so due to their higher metabolism and resilience to stress. A spoiled child growing up in material luxury may not seem like a stressful childhood causing narcissism, but if the emotional needs of the child are not met then he/she is just as likely to become a psycho as an average kid relentlessly bullied in school.
Peat spoke about this in a recent interview saying that college and high school students are much less empathetic than several decades ago, despite their financial situation being much better (on average) than their parents'. So, the more society drifts away from normal interpersonal relationships (and towards transactional mode in any aspect of life) the more of this we are probably going to see. Lack of human connection probably ranks right up there with PUFA and radiation as a systemic stressor destroying the whole organism.
Just my 2c.

 

[danishispsychic]

Well , when you start identifying as either a " liberal " or a " conservative " and even buy into that stuff..... I mean.....

 

[Reaper242xx]

Good thing I'm neither, hardcore anarcho-capitalist here. Reading Murray Rothbard changed my life. Freeing us from government/corporate oppression is obviously not on the "to do" list though. Candidates like Trump, Hillary, Sanders, and Cruz is just the same old ***t, or worse ***t, in the case of the more socialistic candidates, like Sanders.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

I guess it's about knowing one's fear or insecurity and being willing to face up to it where one gets to coming closer to knowing one's true self. Once once appreciates his true self, he would need less the armor of the false self, and he would be able to rid himself of his narcissistic tendencies.

It has more to do with ability to handle reality. Your true self , at least in the Three Principles model I prefer, is invulnerable . What Sam does is give the narcissist an experience of being abused the way they were as children. However as adults they can easily handle this and being able to handle reality as true self makes narcissism obsolete.

Narcissism is energy expensive and the psyche conserves energy. An embodied insight can therefore cause narcissism to fall away.

In fact it is highly similar to the way Jorgen Rasmussen produces insight in his clients. He will put a knife to their throats or tell them to put a bullet into their brains if that causes them to wake up and see the truth about themselves.

 

[Regina]

The concious-subconcious division is highly questionable. It seems to many that the concious mind is an illusion and does not exist. But it seems that there is a concious calculation to produce supply from the victims, but the vulnerable false self is kept out of conciousness, because it is so painful to think about it. The false self exist to protect the true self, like a mask or an armor. It not quite the same, but you can think of it like you not paying attention to the back of your head. It is there should you pay attention, but mostly you don't. I am not an expert on narcissism though, so take that with a grain of salt.

In any case, if you get the permission to access the true self you can change things. It also does not matter if something is subconscious since things like cronic pain, migraines, allergies and cancer are often caused by the unconscious mind and can be addressed if the concious mind allows it.

As Hamlet says,
"...Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,..."

 

[Fractality]

Then why does it become pathological only in some people? I guess it is natural to see yourself as somewhat central to the world, but there is pretty solid line dividing the mostly benign "attention seeking" from pathological narcissism that often leads to terrorizing others.
If it was a coping mechanism for fear of insignificance/death then shouldn't be present universally, even in children?

First off, I would say the defined psychiatric disorders are heavily reductionistic and even simply imagined/made up based on idiosyncrasies. However, I think any disorder can become pathological when it isn't effectively balanced by healthier means. I'm also certain there is a physiological/biological/dietary component involved. Terror Management Theory (with its 30+ years of studies) has shown that humans are subconsciously driven to develop and rely on their self-esteem within the dominant culture to shield themselves from the terror of their eventual death. That isn't to state that is inherently a bad thing, but it can be if the coping mechanism is destructive to others and the environment. If you study the hunter gatherer societies, you will see a world view that endowed them with cosmic significance and as a result, they were arguably more capable of dealing with their mortality in a non-destructive fashion.

 

[haidut]

First off, I would say the defined psychiatric disorders are heavily reductionistic and even simply imagined/made up based on idiosyncrasies. However, I think any disorder can become pathological when it isn't effectively balanced by healthier means. I'm also certain there is a physiological/biological/dietary component involved. Terror Management Theory (with its 30+ years of studies) has shown that humans are subconsciously driven to develop and rely on their self-esteem within the dominant culture to shield themselves from the terror of their eventual death. That isn't to state that is inherently a bad thing, but it can be if the coping mechanism is destructive to others and the environment. If you study the hunter gatherer societies, you will see a world view that endowed them with cosmic significance and as a result, they were arguably more capable of dealing with their mortality in a non-destructive fashion.

Agreed, but keep in mind that death is also subject to debate. We don't know yet what happens to consciousness after "death" and if there is indeed such a thing as demise of the individual. The evidence that keeps accumulating points in the other direction - i.e. we are simply offshoots of universal consciousness (an electric process) permeating all matter. Considering the extreme consistency of people's report of NDE which involve exiting the body and observing oneself from the outside, as well as the recent experiments with "suspended animation" strongly point in the direction that what we call "death" is at best a great misnomer and you call "yourself" is not really limited to your body.
The "primitive" people who have no fear of death may simply know more about it than us and as such have less fear of it. It doesn't have to point back to narcissism.

 

[Fractality]

Agreed, but keep in mind that death is also subject to debate. We don't know yet what happens to consciousness after "death" and if there is indeed such a thing as demise of the individual. The evidence that keeps accumulating points in the other direction - i.e. we are simply offshoots of universal consciousness (an electric process) permeating all matter. Considering the extreme consistency of people's report of NDE which involve exiting the body and observing oneself from the outside, as well as the recent experiments with "suspended animation" strongly point in the direction that what we call "death" is at best a great misnomer and you call "yourself" is not really limited to your body.
The "primitive" people who have no fear of death may simply know more about it than us and as such have less fear of it. It doesn't have to point back to narcissism.

Yes, there is probably some form of electromagnetic existence post-biological death. However, that doesn't mean we didn't evolve a subconscious fear about dying. The subconscious fear of death is likely a biological spandrel. I just see narcissism as an extreme perverted form of self-esteem made worse by certain environmental factors.

 

[haidut]

Yes, there is probably some form of electromagnetic existence post-biological death. However, that doesn't mean we didn't evolve a subconscious fear about dying. The subconscious fear of death is likely a biological spandrel. I just see narcissism as an extreme perverted form of self-esteem made worse by certain environmental factors.

So, why does fear of death seem to be so prevalent in some culture but more or less absent in others? Doesn't that argue for it being more of a cultural phenomenon rather than a spandrel?

 

[Fractality]

So, why does fear of death seem to be so prevalent in some culture but more or less absent in others? Doesn't that argue for it being more of a cultural phenomenon rather than a spandrel?

All of culture serves a death-denying function. Secular culture is about symbolic immortality; believing in progress and legacy attained by being a good citizen, being the "greatest" businessman or sports player, being actively charitable/political, etc. Religious culture is about literal immortality by living up to the standards of a cosmic rule book.

 

[Tenacity]

So, why does fear of death seem to be so prevalent in some culture but more or less absent in others? Doesn't that argue for it being more of a cultural phenomenon rather than a spandrel?

I think it may also be a hormonally governed physiological phenomenon, too. During the worst periods of my hyperPOTS, which is characterised by excess plasma norepinephrine, I constantly had negative thoughts related to death, fear of death, others dying, etc. Irukandji syndrome from the sting of the Irukandji jellyfish results in an intense feeling of impending doom and fear of death, so powerful that people want to die. Subsequent to being stung plasma levels of epinephrine and norepinephrine increase. I think it's possible the fear of death may be an indication of general health, in some ways.

 

[Regina]

I think it may also be a hormonally governed physiological phenomenon, too. During the worst periods of my hyperPOTS, which is characterised by excess plasma norepinephrine, I constantly had negative thoughts related to death, fear of death, others dying, etc. Irukandji syndrome from the sting of the Irukandji jellyfish results in an intense feeling of impending doom and fear of death, so powerful that people want to die. Subsequent to being stung plasma levels of epinephrine and norepinephrine increase. I think it's possible the fear of death may be an indication of general health, in some ways.

That's pretty interesting.
The only times that I had intense norepinephrine levels was when I trained (aikido) with a certain person. I would be doing fine in class but if I cursored over to him, I would immediately empty all liver glycogen and be flooded with NE the moment he touched me. The more I learned about this person, the more I realized my physiological response to him was spot on.

 

[haidut]

All of culture serves a death-denying function. Secular culture is about symbolic immortality; believing in progress and legacy attained by being a good citizen, paying taxes, being actively charitable/political, etc. Religious culture is about literal immortality by living up to the standards of a cosmic rule book.

Many of the "primitive" societies that have little fear of death have also almost no culture that would teach things such as progress, legacy, obedience, etc. Amazon Indians are a good examples of such (small) societies. They are interested in simply being, without much concern for social structure or what happens after they are gone. Some of them have languages that do not include a concept of time, and it has been shown that the less time-centric a language is the less materialistic and fatalistic the attitude of people using it is.
I understand the premise of the Terror Management Theory, it is somewhat valid. I mentioned it quite a few times in my 2014-2015 posts. But there are plenty of examples of people who do not fear death the slightest and if it was an evolutionary development it should have been present everywhere, regardless of culture. I wouldn't equate a healthy self-preservation instinct with Terror Management Theory. The former is constructive, while the latter is nihilistic.
The fact that drugs like LSD can remove the fear of death completely also suggests an actual fear is pathological. Concern about staying alive? Healthy. But paralyzing fear leading to complete nihilism and various coping mechanisms? Probably a pathology of some sort.

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

I'm getting worried bout the peeps around this forum.

Psychopaths are amazing creatures. Top predators.
Better than lions and tigers put together.

They fascinate me with their fearful psychopathy

The Psychopathe
BY WILLIAM BLAKE
Psycho psycho, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy lack of empathy?

In what distant deeps or skies.
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand, dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder, & what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? & what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain,
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp,
Dare its deadly terrors clasp!

When the stars threw down their spears
And water'd heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the empath make thee?

Psycho, psycho burning bright,
In the forests of the night:
What immortal hand or eye,
Dare frame thy fearful psychopathe?

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

That's pretty interesting.
The only times that I had intense norepinephrine levels was when I trained (aikido) with a certain person. I would be doing fine in class but if I cursored over to him, I would immediately empty all liver glycogen and be flooded with NE the moment he touched me. The more I learned about this person, the more I realized my physiological response to him was spot on.

what did you learn?

What was it about him that elicited this response?

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

@haidut while narcissists can become sociopathic, actual psychopaths are something else completely. They're born that way. They're a sort of polymorphism with different brains and different biologies. They're designed to be intra-social predators. It's just that there are so many screwed up people in the world and a mix up of terms that it detracts from pure psychopaths who are a wonder to behold.

 

[yerrag]

Psychopaths are amazing creatures. Top predators.
Better than lions and tigers put together.

They fascinate me with their fearful psychopathy

The Psychopathe
BY WILLIAM BLAKE
Psycho psycho, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy lack of empathy?

In what distant deeps or skies.
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand, dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder, & what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? & what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain,
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp,
Dare its deadly terrors clasp!

When the stars threw down their spears
And water'd heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the empath make thee?

Psycho, psycho burning bright,
In the forests of the night:
What immortal hand or eye,
Dare frame thy fearful psychopathe?

Top of the chain. No fear. No empathy. Survival. But to lambs- a psychopath.

Yes, we need to be psychopathic, in ways that spell that augur well for survival.

No mercy! No mercy for Monsanto!

Many of the "primitive" societies that have little fear of death have also almost no culture that would teach things such as progress, legacy, obedience, etc. Amazon Indians are a good examples of such (small) societies. They are interested in simply being, without much concern for social structure or what happens after they are gone. Some of them have languages that do not include a concept of time, and it has been shown that the less time-centric a language is the less materialistic and fatalistic the attitude of people using it is.

No fear of death.

That is such a noble concept. When I see ants or termites or bees, I see how their colonies survive. When I see man, I see how civilizations grow.

They don't fade. There is continuity. Civilizations fade. And there lies the difference in contrasting natures.

There is a subset, a class of these creatures, that don't care about their own survival. It matters more that the own society survive. There is peace. The evil is that many have to make a personal sacrifice of death. The good is that all's well.

Civilizations decay because there is no class that rises to the occasion of grave danger. The fear of death stops us cold. Without this fear, a horde will rise up in unison and put themselves in death's way in the hope that the survivors will restore peace and order. And justice (a word besmirched by SJWs).

Fathers and mothers will only say 'Let other families' first-born do it!