Bonobos Are Altruistic (without Payback And Without Encouragement)

[Dhair]

It seems that physiology and hence psychology and thus society which in my mind is a collectiveness of individual psychology works in two different pathways via a snowball-ing type of feedforward loop. Our current society is in the HPA axis loop, the "utopian" for lack of a better term would be a thyroid based loop.

It seems meatbag is proposing based on the bonobo argument a maslows hierarchy of needs type of paradigm. Basic requirements are needed at the foundational level for more intricate functions such as actualization to occur.

I think the main question lies in how to bridge this gap from our current societal state of HPA axis to the state of thyroid via the meeting of foundational needs and for most people first an awareness of what those needs are. The biggest hurdle as pointed out in my brief skimming of Prosper points seems to be in the current psychological paradigm of egoism, self preservation and scarcity causing a feed forward snowball in the HPA axis direction inhibits the fullfillment of this hierachy.

This is a question I have been struggling with: how do we transmit the paradigm of values, morals, and underlying conceptual foundations in the context of free thought and exploration without inhibiting the individual while presently in the context of the HPA axis state of less than optimal fullfilment of needs?
It seems that the collective conciousness as a whole needs to mature to trasncendanc of ego state, a high level of self awareness. We currently seem to be at the level of the egocentric adolescent in linear development. Perhaps these times are learning points for the development of this collective consciousness state to the required level. imagine a collective consciousness of individual thought, seemingly paradoxical but in reality perhaps not.

For me the Ray Peat forum gets as close to this as I have experienced on a large scale, it would be nice if we could discuss these things with more coherence amongst eachother and less undertones of animosity. After all its only through unity that we can really achieve any of these things, atleast in my mind.

I often am pained by thought of what is possible with our unity as a whole in the current context of how we actually function. Our posibilities on the "positive" side of the coin are endless. Our possibilities on the "negative" side of the coin are finite and obvious.

I don't detect any animosity in this thread at all. I like talking about these things. I think this discussion has been had somewhere else on here but I don't remember where.

 

[PhilParma]

There are people who no amount of gelatin and OJ will help.

Blasphemy.

 

[kyle]

friendly behavior towards complete (genetic) strangers requires good metabolism and proper energy production.

Wouldn't bonobos have similar genes?

 

[Regina]

Is that how we should live? O no there are bad people so I gotta be kinda bad to, there's people that cheat so I gotta cheat, there's people that steal so I gotta steal...
The solution is not to eliminate them but to show them where they are wrong and show them the right way; anything that is broken can be fixed and reading Peat's ideas isn't most of this behavior founded in things that can be changed. There is no limit.

If a person tries to mug you, resist and overcome them but don't mug them back. I am not saying to become weak, I'm saying to pursue a path where you become so capable there is nothing to fear. If someone kills you you did not lose, it is their loss.

There are many serotonin-driven people in my aikido classes. Even though the forms and dojo environment should create an exploratory, playful (though rigorous), truth-seeking spot on the Universe where we can exist for each other, there are many who flip right into a psychopathological relationship the second they get on the mat. Unfortunately, these types tend to scheme, plot and plan their way on to the Board or what have you; they see it all as a dominance hierarchy--much like Ray has noted that animals who were treated roughly when they were young tend to be over-submissive to anyone "higher" in the dominance hierarchy and bullying to anyone "lower" in dominance. I have an infuriating soft-style and tend to smile through the practice. I observe when someone's roughness is lacking in technique. Typically, this person can be de-escalated and really appreciates someone showing them connection, empathy and allowing them to drop the tough-guy ego. I become softer with them and direct them and say, "Nice job"; "There you go"; "Ah, that's perfect. You're doing really good." Depending on the person, (if they haven't doubled-down on the dark side) they will take this time to examine the kata and technique, and they will learn this specific kata better for subsequent times.

 

[DaveFoster]

Sexuality itself mirrors altruism.

There are many serotonin-driven people in my aikido classes. Even though the forms and dojo environment should create an exploratory, playful (though rigorous), truth-seeking spot on the Universe where we can exist for each other, there are many who flip right into a psychopathological relationship the second they get on the mat. Unfortunately, these types tend to scheme, plot and plan their way on to the Board or what have you; they see it all as a dominance hierarchy--much like Ray has noted that animals who were treated roughly when they were young tend to be over-submissive to anyone "higher" in the dominance hierarchy and bullying to anyone "lower" in dominance. I have an infuriating soft-style and tend to smile through the practice. I observe when someone's roughness is lacking in technique. Typically, this person can be de-escalated and really appreciates someone showing them connection, empathy and allowing them to drop the tough-guy ego. I become softer with them and direct them and say, "Nice job"; "There you go"; "Ah, that's perfect. You're doing really good." Depending on the person, (if they haven't doubled-down on the dark side) they will take this time to examine the kata and technique, and they will learn this specific kata better for subsequent times.

Very insightful, Regina. Thanks for sharing!

When stressed, I'm more drawn to authoritarianism, and of course justification of aggressive dominance. When I'm truly present, hierarchy manifests naturally. Being "the life of the party" entails a complete immersion in the experience, and greater openness, connection, and confidence all enhance the experience for everyone.

The word "empathy" has been hijacked in our culture to mean something like a complete willful dissolution of the self for another, but empathy has a deep resonance with the self and its organic spontaneity opposes sympathy (as contrived.)

I have been thinking about this a lot lately.
Maybe being in ideal metabolic health is actually detrimental to a human's ability to survive. In a world where people are constantly exposed to synthetic poisons and PUFA, survival of the fittest is the name of the game. And by "fittest," I mean it in the mostly badly interpreted Darwinian sense of the word - i.e. serotonin-dominant psychopathy.
History teaches us that striving for utopia can lead to disastrous consequences. Forcing humans to be more like bonobos - or just generally be "better" - could potentially lead to the end of civilization. Of course, the alternative, as Peat said, is to continue down the path we have been on until we eventually turn on each other, and the result would be the same.
I think we are doomed either way.

Implicit in your argument, you assume that there's this pre-ordained timeline. No one has any idea of the future, and your biology helps you navigate the present to the best of its ability. Ideally, everyone would have maximal energy and be purposeful in their function. If everyone's happy, no one would be angry. Anger in itself "feels good" because of beta-endorphin, cortisol, and adrenaline, but none of these systems can sustain themselves, so therefore a state of anger cannot sustain itself.

Punctuated periods of anger could be argued for, and indeed this is what appears most successful for humanity, as we strive toward greater heights in our personalities. People who want to be angry have not experienced bliss, or they believe happiness cannot be sustained (which is false.)

Unfortunately, these types tend to scheme, plot and plan their way on to the Board or what have you; they see it all as a dominance hierarchy--much like Ray has noted that animals who were treated roughly when they were young tend to be over-submissive to anyone "higher" in the dominance hierarchy and bullying to anyone "lower" in dominance.

Do you know where Dr. Peat says this? I'd like to integrate it into an article I'm writing.

 

[jaa]

Bonobos are almost definitely not as peaceful and free loving as they are made to seem in popular media. Most of the the studies in which they demonstrate such behavior consist of juvenille apes in controlled environments (well fed enclosures).

Questioning the "sexy" bonobo hype - Incredulous

Questioning the “sexy” bonobo hype, part 2: a primatologist debunks Christopher Ryan - Incredulous

Faux-nobo: "Naked Bonobo" demolishes myth of sexy, egalitarian bonobos - Incredulous

 

[Regina]

Sexuality itself mirrors altruism.

Very insightful, Regina. Thanks for sharing!

When stressed, I'm more drawn to authoritarianism, and of course justification of aggressive dominance. When I'm truly present, hierarchy manifests naturally. Being "the life of the party" entails a complete immersion in the experience, and greater openness, connection, and confidence all enhance the experience for everyone.

The word "empathy" has been hijacked in our culture to mean something like a complete willful dissolution of the self for another, but empathy has a deep resonance with the self and its organic spontaneity opposes sympathy (as contrived.)

Implicit in your argument, you assume that there's this pre-ordained timeline. No one has any idea of the future, and your biology helps you navigate the present to the best of its ability. Ideally, everyone would have maximal energy and be purposeful in their function. If everyone's happy, no one would be angry. Anger in itself "feels good" because of beta-endorphin, cortisol, and adrenaline, but none of these systems can sustain themselves, so therefore a state of anger cannot sustain itself.

Punctuated periods of anger could be argued for, and indeed this is what appears most successful for humanity, as we strive toward greater heights in our personalities. People who want to be angry have not experienced bliss, or they believe happiness cannot be sustained (which is false.)

Do you know where Dr. Peat says this? I'd like to integrate it into an article I'm writing.

Aargh, I'm still looking Dave. I must be paraphrasing Dr. Peat so poorly, it is not turning up in a search.

In zen buddhism, (according to my experience) "empathy" is not a dissolution of self, with or without a sense of agency. Rather, the self is entirely integrated such that there is no separation and it is then that (their Buddha nature) they have free and unrestricted seeing--in order to 'see/hear the thirsts' in all beings. You'll note that the statues of Kannon (sometimes called Kanzeon, Bodhisattva, Kanjizai) often show her/him with many arms (to serve) but they never leave her strong and upright body. She/he is a great warrior, with limitless compassion, who will help whoever calls.

 

[DaveFoster]

Aargh, I'm still looking Dave. I must be paraphrasing Dr. Peat so poorly, it is not turning up in a search.

In zen buddhism, (according to my experience) "empathy" is not a dissolution of self, with or without a sense of agency. Rather, the self is entirely integrated such that there is no separation and it is then that (their Buddha nature) they have free and unrestricted seeing--in order to 'see/hear the thirsts' in all beings. You'll note that the statues of Kannon (sometimes called Kanzeon, Bodhisattva, Kanjizai) often show her/him with many arms (to serve) but they never leave her strong and upright body. She/he is a great warrior, with limitless compassion, who will help whoever calls.

Great symbolism, that's pretty accurate I'd say.

 

[cyclops]

Bonobo Bonobo Bonobo!

 

[Sucrates]

Bonobos are almost definitely not as peaceful and free loving as they are made to seem in popular media. Most of the the studies in which they demonstrate such behavior consist of juvenille apes in controlled environments (well fed enclosures).

Questioning the "sexy" bonobo hype - Incredulous

Questioning the “sexy” bonobo hype, part 2: a primatologist debunks Christopher Ryan - Incredulous

Faux-nobo: "Naked Bonobo" demolishes myth of sexy, egalitarian bonobos - Incredulous

High-stress pathological behavior packaged to fit a certain cultural/political narrative.

 

[meatbag]

There are many serotonin-driven people in my aikido classes. Even though the forms and dojo environment should create an exploratory, playful (though rigorous), truth-seeking spot on the Universe where we can exist for each other, there are many who flip right into a psychopathological relationship the second they get on the mat. Unfortunately, these types tend to scheme, plot and plan their way on to the Board or what have you; they see it all as a dominance hierarchy--much like Ray has noted that animals who were treated roughly when they were young tend to be over-submissive to anyone "higher" in the dominance hierarchy and bullying to anyone "lower" in dominance. I have an infuriating soft-style and tend to smile through the practice. I observe when someone's roughness is lacking in technique. Typically, this person can be de-escalated and really appreciates someone showing them connection, empathy and allowing them to drop the tough-guy ego. I become softer with them and direct them and say, "Nice job"; "There you go"; "Ah, that's perfect. You're doing really good." Depending on the person, (if they haven't doubled-down on the dark side) they will take this time to examine the kata and technique, and they will learn this specific kata better for subsequent times.

This is a beautiful insight, reading it I think of similar instances I've experienced or seen. It is tough to deal with people like that and it seems like everyone is like that where I live now and it has probably rubbed off on me to some extent I am sure. I will try to take this to heart, thanks regina. I always enjoy reading your aikido stories when I come across them, maybe I 'll try to take some classes :)

 

[Regina]

I have posted before studies in regards to the link between metabolism, energy and highly valued human qualities like altruism, and helpfulness. As has been confirmed in humans, egalitarian beliefs, altruism and generally friendly behavior towards complete (genetic) strangers requires good metabolism and proper energy production.
Generative Energy #18: Q and A with Danny and Georgi

Bonobos are known as one of the most gregarious ape species, and coincidentally are known to be resistant to aging due to high levels of thyroid hormone.
Bonobos Do Not Age Due To High Thyroid Hormone

Now, if egalitarian beliefs and altrusim and good thyroid function go hand in hand, and if bonobos maintain high thyroid function throughout their lifetimes then one would expect them to be quite altruistic (without being driven by promise of payoff or somehow coerced into altruism). That is exactly what the study below found - i.e. bonobos will help a complete stranger seemingly just out of kindness. I remember seeing a study years ago which found that bonobos have lower levels of serotonin than any other of the humanoid apes, which would explain the altruism...and the very high sexuality bonobos are famous for.

Bonobos respond prosocially toward members of other groups | Scientific Reports
Bonobos Help Strangers Without Being Asked

"...The bonobos released the fruit roughly four times more often when an unfamiliar bonobo was in the adjacent room than when the room was empty. What’s more, the bonobos didn’t wait to be asked for help, they just offered it. The researchers changed the size of the mesh surrounding the stranger’s room so that in some trials they were able to stick their arms through the openings in the screen to beg for the treat, and in other trials they were not. The bonobos helped just as often whether the stranger gestured for help or not. Bonobos’ impulse to feel for strangers isn’t entirely under conscious control, the researchers also found. In another experiment, they had 21 bonobos watch a series of short videos. In some videos, the apes saw a familiar group member either yawning or making a neutral expression. In other videos they watched complete strangers from the Columbus Zoo in the U.S. behaving the same way."

Just finished watching Gomarrah, the Italian TV series (2 seasons on Netflix). If you want to see a human study in damaged serotonergic-cortisol systems, the writers of this show seem to have outstanding scholarship.

 

[Revo]

Interesting thread. There is a huge amount of evidence that Bonobos are very similar to humans in many ways. Socially, sexually, and innate behavior. In fact, someone on here mentioned a Bonobo's DNA and actually, a Bonobo is closer relative to human than a chimpanzee, as a chimpanzee is closer to a human than he is to a bonobo.

I believe one of the reasons bonobos are more altruistic is because it is how they survive in the wild. They are a highly social species only humans organize in a more sophisticated way socially. And in their society is wrapped around cooperation and sharing. Similar to early humans before the advent of agriculture. The agricultural revolution, more than anything in our history, it changed humans from a hunter-gatherer to an ownership/property society. In fact, this can still be seen in isolated hunter-gather groups today where the groups are still very egalitarian and share everything, and I mean everything. In fact in these societies, it is considered a serious violation of the tribe or clan if you do not share. Even to the point of male hunting parties going out and getting meat. If one member did not catch anything then the other males divide up the catch with him before they get back. So he will not be looked at differently by the females of the group.

There is a strong desire to tie everything to diet and while it certainly is an important part of it. I think there are behavioral reasons for some of these habits. Bonobos and hunter-gatherer humans shared because it helped them maintain their group cohesion which is what they needed to survive. Read an excellent book "Sex At Dawn" to find out more. It goes into extensive science on human behavior as well as sexual behavior and why we got this way. Be prepared to see things differently than the orthodoxy of today. But that is not new for this group.

 

[morgan#1]

I love this ***t. Ok when we’re born eventually we know in the back/or front of our minds that we are going to die. What I have found rallying around in my brain, is that I’ve been euphorically happy and more than a few times hopeless. Of course I would choose the former.
I think we are all born with both, and I don’t know why I have the thoughts that I have.

Maybe it has to do with upbringing (or lack of in my case). But if I list everything that has happened to me, it would be extremely jarring. I choose to look at things from a view that is entirely my own; born alone die alone. That’s the stark reality of it, absolutely not being glum. I had an eating disorder since I was around 13 till 3 + years ago. Probably 28 years keeping something and basically being alone. I’m really not trying to digress at all. The point I’m making is now, since not having the shield and shame and feeling like complete ***t about myself, I have turned the corner, no one was there, no comfort at home, blah blah blah. I used to blame others, now I just sweep my side of the street. And of course be as kind as you can. In the past I’ve been as shitty as I can to everyone, and it just does me a disservice. I feel good when I am good. It seems to be all about me, and it should be, because my kindness carries over.

As a result I am so sure of myself I know who I am, I’ve looked deep into my soul. I don’t think the apes thought about it much, ha ha. Primitive, and I’ve gone down as far as I can go. Primitively! Basic stuff.

I believe that some people can look at themselves and some can’t, they’d rather do anything but; drink, gamble, cheat, and eat like a pig every day, and definitely not look at themselves. I had bottomed out, given up and then life was there, to help me. Truth will set you free. This is my experience, I’m trying to be and feel better, and I think being a member of society it helps all of us out. I’m a b**** when I choose, so much better to nourish the happy side. Feels good.

I don’t have a fantastic thyroid, but I’m getting close. And I know like the energizer bunny, keep on. It’s fall here in Boston, cold yucky. As a child I never noticed any of that. I think as children we see the world, everything in it, and we do not focus on the people. I think that’s where our collective dis function is. Fear and insecurity is possibly the downfall of society.

It seems that we are further along than apes, we have a choice we have perception, and it seems that we have a choice to view things either glass half full or glass half empty. I’m alone, but I’m not unhappy. I love being with me, absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Never felt that before. I had to take the leap of faith, (especially with the food). And maybe my happiness rests somewhat on the fact that I haven’t been mean to my mother, boyfriend etc. But I believe that it’s solid, and I’m not kidding myself or anyone else as to what I am. I am nourishing myself amazingly, but I also have to mind my p’s and q’s. And found through trial and error that when I let life happen without my taking charge, things are good, even great.

I want a fast pulse and higher body temp. Maybe I’m not quite ready for that now. I’ve gotten a glimpse of how that feels in me, it’s euphoric. Man I can’t wait. And I am absolutely sure that I will be a better more warm person based on my thyroid. I would never have believed it before, but I’ve gotten a glimpse of it, and it is like nothing else. No drug could touch it.

 

[intotheether]

That is really interesting.

 

[haidut]

Wouldn't bonobos have similar genes?

Yes, but so would more distant relatives like cows. We are, roughly speaking, about 80% cow. At what point do you draw the line and declare an organism is not your genetic kin so that you do not care about it? We all share common ancestor, so in theory we are all kin. Is that why altruism seems to exist so widely in nature? It seems pretty conveniently set up in favor of geneticism so that unless an alien organism on another planet is found here on Earth people like Dawkins can always claim that observed altruism is because the benefactor is somehow related to the beneficiary.

 

[haidut]

Awesome :) I learned awhile back that the explanation for why chimpanzees (99.8% percent similar to bonobos) are more violent is due to the fact that they have to compete with Gorillas for resources, on the other side of the river where the Bonobos live there aren't any gorillas so they pretty much never go hungry. It makes me hope that maybe if the bankers and other aggressors spend enough generations hogging all the resources they will become like bonobos kind of fits in with the grasshopper, locust scenario

"Bonobos' generous nature likely evolved because they live in an area of the Congo where food is plentiful. They never had to compete with gorillas or kill for a meal like common chimps do." https://phys.org/pdf218819223.pdf

edit: looks like @Jennifer posted something similar on the other thread;Bonobos Do Not Age Due To High Thyroid Hormone

Yep, and it fits with the Kropotkin's observations (which Peat repeatedly refers to in his political interviews) of constant struggle bringing out the worst in people, while relative lack of survival stress contributing to civilization. Most advanced civilizations in the past achieved their peaks in non-military occupations when the civilization was NOT at war and enjoyed sufficient access to resources.
Peter Kropotkin - Wikipedia

 

[haidut]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately.
Maybe being in ideal metabolic health is actually detrimental to a human's ability to survive. In a world where people are constantly exposed to synthetic poisons and PUFA, survival of the fittest is the name of the game. And by "fittest," I mean it in the mostly badly interpreted Darwinian sense of the word - i.e. serotonin-dominant psychopathy.
History teaches us that striving for utopia can lead to disastrous consequences. Forcing humans to be more like bonobos - or just generally be "better" - could potentially lead to the end of civilization. Of course, the alternative, as Peat said, is to continue down the path we have been on until we eventually turn on each other, and the result would be the same.
I think we are doomed either way.

It is detrimental only in a state of constant struggle, driven by shortage of resources. The world is usually not like that unless humans change it in a way to become like that. See my response to meatbag above in regards to Kropotkin's observations and writings. He is criticized as being a communist but he actually hated the Bolsheviks and was unpopular with them. I hate labels but he was more of an anarcho-communal-libertarian, if that label even exists.
You actually bring up a great point that I am going to post about in a separate post. The study that that inspired that upcoming post is this one, and despite its looney portions it is great because it talks about how constant struggle is manifested biologically through cortisol, TSH, FSH, hCG prolactin, and other detrimental hormones Peat has talked about.
Sex, kings and serial killers and other group-selected human traits. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Dhair]

Very cool. I do have some questions about this study, but I'll ask them in the new thread that you're going to post .

 

[haidut]

but as a practical solution it demonstrates crippling naivety. You will not get people behave as kindly as you, just like others won't get you behave as ruthlessly as them.

The studies with LSD in the 1960s (and more recently replicated successfully in maximum security prisons with hardened criminals) show that when people are allowed to escape from the serotonergic mindset they usually change dramatically for the better, and if they revert back to pathology they repeatedly seek to re-enter that non-serotonergic mindset. The medical authorities call this "addiction" but it is really just an organism's recognition that there is a better option - i.e. a constant drive to experience the same blissful mindset again, because it is so deficient (by design) to find in modern life. The "Rat Park" experiment confirmed in other species as well that ability to rapidly change "genetically programmed" pathological behavior (heroin addiction in that case) by changing the environment for the better. So, no need for mass consumption of LSD
Our natural course of development is progress unless interrupted by hypothyroid/serotonergic individuals through brute force, either directly or through engineering a toxic environment for all. We may live in a dog-eat-dog world right now but we know it is unnatural and driven by pathology, which can be reversed.