Bonobos Are Altruistic (without Payback And Without Encouragement)

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by haidut, Nov 15, 2017.

  1. haidut

    haidut Member

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    I have posted before studies in regards to the link between metabolism, energy and highly valued human qualities like altruism, and helpfulness. As has been confirmed in humans, egalitarian beliefs, altruism and generally friendly behavior towards complete (genetic) strangers requires good metabolism and proper energy production.
    Generative Energy #18: Q and A with Danny and Georgi

    Bonobos are known as one of the most gregarious ape species, and coincidentally are known to be resistant to aging due to high levels of thyroid hormone.
    Bonobos Do Not Age Due To High Thyroid Hormone

    Now, if egalitarian beliefs and altrusim and good thyroid function go hand in hand, and if bonobos maintain high thyroid function throughout their lifetimes then one would expect them to be quite altruistic (without being driven by promise of payoff or somehow coerced into altruism). That is exactly what the study below found - i.e. bonobos will help a complete stranger seemingly just out of kindness. I remember seeing a study years ago which found that bonobos have lower levels of serotonin than any other of the humanoid apes, which would explain the altruism...and the very high sexuality bonobos are famous for.

    Bonobos respond prosocially toward members of other groups | Scientific Reports
    Bonobos Help Strangers Without Being Asked

    "...The bonobos released the fruit roughly four times more often when an unfamiliar bonobo was in the adjacent room than when the room was empty. What’s more, the bonobos didn’t wait to be asked for help, they just offered it. The researchers changed the size of the mesh surrounding the stranger’s room so that in some trials they were able to stick their arms through the openings in the screen to beg for the treat, and in other trials they were not. The bonobos helped just as often whether the stranger gestured for help or not. Bonobos’ impulse to feel for strangers isn’t entirely under conscious control, the researchers also found. In another experiment, they had 21 bonobos watch a series of short videos. In some videos, the apes saw a familiar group member either yawning or making a neutral expression. In other videos they watched complete strangers from the Columbus Zoo in the U.S. behaving the same way."
     
  2. paymanz

    paymanz Member

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  3. Regina

    Regina Member

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    sigh
     
  4. meatbag

    meatbag Member

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    Awesome :) I learned awhile back that the explanation for why chimpanzees (99.8% percent similar to bonobos) are more violent is due to the fact that they have to compete with Gorillas for resources, on the other side of the river where the Bonobos live there aren't any gorillas so they pretty much never go hungry. It makes me hope that maybe if the bankers and other aggressors spend enough generations hogging all the resources they will become like bonobos :angelic: kind of fits in with the grasshopper, locust scenario :cool:

    "Bonobos' generous nature likely evolved because they live in an area of the Congo where food is plentiful. They never had to compete with gorillas or kill for a meal like common chimps do." https://phys.org/pdf218819223.pdf

    edit: looks like @Jennifer posted something similar on the other thread;Bonobos Do Not Age Due To High Thyroid Hormone
     
  5. Dhair

    Dhair Member

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    I have been thinking about this a lot lately.
    Maybe being in ideal metabolic health is actually detrimental to a human's ability to survive. In a world where people are constantly exposed to synthetic poisons and PUFA, survival of the fittest is the name of the game. And by "fittest," I mean it in the mostly badly interpreted Darwinian sense of the word - i.e. serotonin-dominant psychopathy.
    History teaches us that striving for utopia can lead to disastrous consequences. Forcing humans to be more like bonobos - or just generally be "better" - could potentially lead to the end of civilization. Of course, the alternative, as Peat said, is to continue down the path we have been on until we eventually turn on each other, and the result would be the same.
    I think we are doomed either way.
     
  6. meatbag

    meatbag Member

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    what? most of the poisons are optional man, isn't flouride added to the water after all and we can design technologies to filter or get rid of just about anything. The methods of production can be adapted. Which history lesson would that be that you're referring too? Have you read generative energy? i can send you a copy... anyways, I know this wasn't addressed to me but have hope! the planet is not a wasteland yet (the tv will tell you otherwise so you buy more ***t) :)
     
  7. Constatine

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    I think he is referring to mentalities that better the individual. As in a high serotonin state (which is aggressive, psychopath like, etc) can benefit the person under stressful situations by influencing his actions. While one with low serotonin will be kind and empathetic, but this might not benefit the individual if he/she is met with conflict.
     
  8. Dhair

    Dhair Member

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    Every prominent communist revolutionary relied heavily on their ability to sell the idea of utopia. The results speak for themselves. If you think a certain class of people is the only thing standing between you and a perfect egalitarian, altruistic society, then the best solution must be to eliminate them.
    Yes, this is what I'm saying. You can be functioning 100% optimally, but it will not save you from murderous psychopaths.
     
  9. Sucrates

    Sucrates Member

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  10. meatbag

    meatbag Member

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    Is that how we should live? O no there are bad people so I gotta be kinda bad to, there's people that cheat so I gotta cheat, there's people that steal so I gotta steal...
    The solution is not to eliminate them but to show them where they are wrong and show them the right way; anything that is broken can be fixed and reading Peat's ideas isn't most of this behavior founded in things that can be changed. There is no limit.

    If a person tries to mug you, resist and overcome them but don't mug them back. I am not saying to become weak, I'm saying to pursue a path where you become so capable there is nothing to fear. If someone kills you you did not lose, it is their loss.
     
  11. Constatine

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    I think a utopia is quite a dangerous concept as well. Not because a utopia will be bad but because a perfect society relies heavily on one's perception of perfection. Might one need to emasculate men, might one need to push a single way of thinking (Rationalism, Religious thought, etc), might one need to redistribute wealth? These are all dangerous things because they are all about overcoming and dominating a specific group of people to elevate others. Now how do you reshape a society, or even have a society, without overcoming and dominating others? Without all these power games? Well you can't, that is a basic function of society and life and it is necessary. But it becomes dangerous when it is taken to the extreme, when a "perfect" society is sought after. Under such conditions certain peoples are heavily dominated even to the point of extinction while others are elevated. People are made to become uniform or alike and those opposing such forces are punished. A perfect society in my eyes is a very imperfect society. Where nothing extreme is taking place.
     
  12. Prosper

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    This is a beautiful sentiment when written on a diary at 2 am on a warm summer night, but as a practical solution it demonstrates crippling naivety. You will not get people behave as kindly as you, just like others won't get you behave as ruthlessly as them.

    Ah, like "if you kill your enemies, they win"? I would say your attitude is closer to mental dysfunction than the cognitive behavior of those you are critizicing. When an individual places its own life below the one threatening it, they are either sick or consumed by an unustainable state of spiritual fervor.
     
  13. meatbag

    meatbag Member

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    Lol so when there's a conflict you throw your hands up in the air in dismay; "O no adversity, the only appropriate response is aggression or giving up". No, conflicts can be resolved, we should do what we can.

    Did I say to let them kill you? To turn the other cheek? No, I said to do what you can without sinking to their level and to make yourself as capable as possible.
     
  14. Constatine

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    I agree with your position on how an individual should be (at least in an ideal environment), but you cannot reshape a society in such a way realistically (not that you really implied this). Though I do think that if a society becomes healthier people will have better interactions with each other and the society will function better as a whole. But if a society starts teaching people to behave a certain way (say via children in schools) it turns into a power game.
     
  15. Prosper

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    Stay put with your strawmen for a moment. You stated that people who don't behave benevolently can be fixed by showering them with compassion. I argued that it is a naive expectation. It will certainly work on some, and just as certainly not for others. For these individuals the only realistic solutions are to either eliminate them, lock them up or let them continue with their harmful deeds.

    Someone killing you regardless of your resistance is the quintessential definition of loss. Either you let them kill you and win or you put up a fight and lose. Neither option is that sensible.
     
  16. meatbag

    meatbag Member

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    As you say the concept of utopia and perfection is of a variable definition and I don't think the pursuit of freedom in necessarily the pursuit of either. I think a lie can grant control but not power, and that a truth will overcome a lie by its truthfulness if it is spoken. Some people will be better than others in any given criteria, but they can possess their superiority without inhibiting those of a lesser nature from making improvements and make available what is needed to be capable. A person can profit without taking advantage of another person.

    Ideally there would be less control, and more freedom and availability
     
  17. Prosper

    Prosper Member

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    What is control if not power?
     
  18. meatbag

    meatbag Member

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    I am not focused on them acting benevolently but on why they are behaving with aggression, greed, and hatred. They don't need to be benevolent if they don't want to obviously. But why does a person feel the need to strike and attack or cheat, steal, and lie? It's a hunger or a need for something, like how the starving grasshopper becomes a locust, or how a chimpanzee forced to fight the gorilla for food attacks other chimps when food is scarce. The bear stuffs his face to fatten his ass for the winter. If the need can be met, the aggression and the control can end. When you want food you can kill someone or eat an apple; if you foresee there will not be enough apples then figure out how to make more. Power is creation and generation, only the inept see control of others as power.

    I'm pretty sure I said to put a fight, how else would you disarm them? If you are over taken then so be it. They don't need to be locked up, truth in biochemistry and physiology will allow for rehabilitation
     
  19. CLASH

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    It seems that physiology and hence psychology and thus society which in my mind is a collectiveness of individual psychology works in two different pathways via a snowball-ing type of feedforward loop. Our current society is in the HPA axis loop, the "utopian" for lack of a better term would be a thyroid based loop.

    It seems meatbag is proposing based on the bonobo argument a maslows hierarchy of needs type of paradigm. Basic requirements are needed at the foundational level for more intricate functions such as actualization to occur.

    I think the main question lies in how to bridge this gap from our current societal state of HPA axis to the state of thyroid via the meeting of foundational needs and for most people first an awareness of what those needs are. The biggest hurdle as pointed out in my brief skimming of Prosper points seems to be in the current psychological paradigm of egoism, self preservation and scarcity causing a feed forward snowball in the HPA axis direction inhibits the fullfillment of this hierachy.

    This is a question I have been struggling with: how do we transmit the paradigm of values, morals, and underlying conceptual foundations in the context of free thought and exploration without inhibiting the individual while presently in the context of the HPA axis state of less than optimal fullfilment of needs?
    It seems that the collective conciousness as a whole needs to mature to trasncendanc of ego state, a high level of self awareness. We currently seem to be at the level of the egocentric adolescent in linear development. Perhaps these times are learning points for the development of this collective consciousness state to the required level. imagine a collective consciousness of individual thought, seemingly paradoxical but in reality perhaps not.

    For me the Ray Peat forum gets as close to this as I have experienced on a large scale, it would be nice if we could discuss these things with more coherence amongst eachother and less undertones of animosity. After all its only through unity that we can really achieve any of these things, atleast in my mind.

    I often am pained by thought of what is possible with our unity as a whole in the current context of how we actually function. Our posibilities on the "positive" side of the coin are endless. Our possibilities on the "negative" side of the coin are finite and obvious.
     
  20. Prosper

    Prosper Member

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    Or just an expression of their being. Not all personalities and temperaments fall within widely accepted moral frameworks.

    For all practial purposes, that is not a well serving definition. When you control others, you hold power over them. You do not possess power unless you are in control, and you can not be in control unless you possess power. One does not exist without the other. It has nothing to do with the kind of smug moral superiority you're subtly representing. Fundamentally power = threat of physical force. The saying "might makes right" doesn't just mean that whoever is the mightiest gets to set the rules. It means that whoever is able to set and enforce rules invariably has both the most control and power.

    I feel that you don't understand the concepts of the underlined words within this context. This sentence is little more than a weightless platitude. There are people who no amount of gelatin and OJ will help. There are people who could practically be defined as 100% irrecovably evil in the moralistic sense of the word.
     
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